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Crossover Battle! Kirito VS Shiroe!
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Posted 6/13/14

sonic720 wrote:


bathroom64 wrote:
Again, I would argue Shiroe cannot be killed. But his heroine is better anyways, so he wins.

The thing about Log Horizon is, the world allows them to "make up new spells". And I highly doubt it is his "most powerful spell", but the perfect spell for that current situation that he was in at that moment. Wait, is that the only spell he has? O.o


I'm just going by the rules the OP has clarified, assuming neither gets their in anime system overrides. The new skills and scribing was only a result of the ET world turned real, it was not a part of the ET game or Shiroe's character before hand. His skills in that regard are limited to the ones listed. We are also assuming Kirito won't pull a Matrix dues ex and deny he's dead and ghost fight to the win either.


True, it seems Shiroe's ability to create new magic will have no grounds in this neutral battlefield, since it only affects the laws in Elder Tale. With that ability, he could create an all new attack spell for his class (similar to how Nureha created a new spell for Enchanters - same class as Shiroe) which could be powerful enough to one-shot Kirito.

For the record, the information I have from the wikis are cited and confirmed by official sources. I do need confirmation on Thorn Bind Hostage though: does it have five thorns or six? I know it was at least five, but if I'm wrong and it's six, that's 12,000 damage with his Thorn Bind combo. That's already almost 65% of Kirito's health gone in a flash.
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Posted 6/13/14

sonic720 wrote:


MartianMage wrote:
It doesn't take 2 seconds to cast. Again refer to Demikas fight. Shiroe has items that improves TBH so his TBH > than your average TBH. Also are you implying that a great tactician like Shiroe who has many years under his belt do not have any understanding of basic 1v1 strategy? It doesn't even take pro to kite with a cc that has the same duration and cooldown.


Just going by the chart provided by the OP on the 2 seconds thing.

I'm saying if neither one knew anything of the other and we put them in a square ring 10 meters around Shiroe would not have enough time to think on his feet and dodge a melee attack. He'd need to have a plan in place before the match started based on knowing how his opponent fights to have the advantage in such a scenario. We are making different assumptions about what the players know of each other and their abilities I think.


So we're now giving variables so that Kirito can actually win?

C'mon let's be realistic here. Anyone familiar with pvp have their own basic SOPs in sudden encounters. It doesn't matter if you know the enemy or not any pvper will have standard responses to various situations. That's what open world pvp is all about.
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Posted 6/14/14

MartianMage wrote:
So we're now giving variables so that Kirito can actually win?

C'mon let's be realistic here. Anyone familiar with pvp have their own basic SOPs in sudden encounters. It doesn't matter if you know the enemy or not any pvper will have standard responses to various situations. That's what open world pvp is all about.


Yeah, but that's only true when both people are playing the same game and both have the same rules to abide by with the same knowledge base of characters and abilities. Again, we are making different assumptions about the conditions in which they will meet to fight.

I'm saying these characters exist in two completely different game worlds that have fundamentally different rules governing them. Therefore, where are they encountering each other to fight head to head in Aincrad, ET, or a neutral game zone?

Since they don't exist in the same game, they must fight in a neutral location that allows them to use their respective game's rules and abilities. That erases all familiarity with opponents abilities and tactics, as even the rules of the game are not the same for both players.

Additionally, Shiroe is not the type of player to fight in a 1v1 battle unless he knows he will win from the start. I'm assuming, then that both characters are dropped into a hypothetical neutral zone and told to fight to the death immediately without being informed of one another's abilities. Otherwise Shiroe would likely abstain from fighting until he knew he could be assured of victory.

The OP does not specify the conditions in which the fight will happen, and those conditions will help determine the winner of the fight. A random encounter in a new neutral game zone with close quarters gives the edge to Kirito. While a more planned and defined battle would allow Shiroe to gather intel on Kirito giving him the advantage. Shiroe can't plan for a random encounter if the playing field changes from one game to another, as he'd be clueless to how the new game operates.

We are operating under different assumptions.
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Posted 6/14/14
Gather intel? Wth are you even talking about. Do you even pvp in an open world pvp mmo? Like I said it doesn't matter if he knows him or not. Every pvper will have their own SOPs in various situations in an open world pvp. There is no such thing as gathering intel first.
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Posted 6/14/14 , edited 6/14/14
@Sonic

You're also assuming Kirito would not be clueless to how a new arena operates?

Again, this is a death battle. We put them, along with the abilities they normally use, and we make them fight. It's as simple as putting two beta fish in one tank. No need to overthink it.

They have different game rules? Fuck it. Make their rules CLASH! (other than SAO's deus ex machina and Shiroe's magic creation, they've been omitted for obvious reasons) See who will come out on top regardless.

It's plain and simple: Take their respective gameplay abilities and put them head to head against each other, in a zone equal to a pvp arena about 30 meters in diameter (that's about the relative size of PvP arenas in most standard MMOs). Far enough for Kirito to not have a huge close quarter advantage, but also far enough for Shiroe to not blast him right out the gate, as well as stand in the middle launches spells everywhere while Kirito is a sitting duck. Shiroe's cast range is 12-something meters (40 feet to be exact), so the radius of the arena should be 15 (~49 feet) to ensure he has to at least move to get in range to Kirito, and vice versa.

That should make it a little clearer. I will update it in the OP.
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Posted 6/14/14 , edited 6/14/14
Just because Kirito has limited range doesn't mean he will lose automatically just like Shiore being bad at close range doesn't mean he will automatically lose. Hard to say how they would react to each other seeing as how neither deals with their weakness in the show. In games you learn how to deal with your deficiencies as best you can but they never had to so Idk how that factors in. I would just say its a coin flip kinda thing for who wins. Just because Shiore is real smart doesn't make Kirito stupid, he's no slouch either in game. I would pick Kirito because I am more of a close range guy in all video games from CoD to MMO and all games applicable, but that's my only grounds for picking haha I don't really care who wins.
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Posted 6/14/14

MartianMage wrote:

Gather intel? Wth are you even talking about. Do you even pvp in an open world pvp mmo? Like I said it doesn't matter if he knows him or not. Every pvper will have their own SOPs in various situations in an open world pvp. There is no such thing as gathering intel first.


Damn right. Both Kirito and Shiroe are seasoned MMO vets. To think they'd see a red label on each other's nameplates and stand around dumbfounded is beyond me. They're going to fight, and both are going to have their methods ready.

I'm starting to think the people that voted for Kirito don't even play MMOs.
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Posted 6/14/14

Flexecute wrote:
@Sonic

You're also assuming Kirito would not be clueless to how a new arena operates?


No, I think he'd be just as clueless if not moreso.

The difference is Kirito does not sweat the details in battle and likes to take risks. He would likely just react, while Shiroe is all about using strategy in battle. The LH anime makes a point that Shiroe does not fight unless he has a good grasp of things first. He waits and collects data on his opponents and then strategically battles them. In contrast, Kirito is more rash and likely to jump into danger confident in his reaction rate to pull him through. That's not to say that Kirito is a mindless fighter, but that he would be more likely to fight on instinct than Shiroe who prefers to avoid conflict unless he knows his opponents well enough and has a party to back him up. One's a solo player that thrives on the thrill of random battles while the other is only good in a party situation where he can help lead others to victory in battle.
D9time 
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Posted 6/14/14
Any strategy involving TBH would be impossible for Shiroe.

Thorn Bind Hostage
A root spell taking 2 seconds to cast (forgot which ep this was in). It sends out 5 roots that for each "ALLY" hit does 1000 damage for a total of 5000 damage (Ep.4 19:19-19:26). In addition there is a 15 second cooldown (Ep.4 19:38).



As I stated earlier Shiroe's best strategy is using his other skills that lower agility(Astral Bind, Mind Shock, and Nightmare Sphere) and try to keep his distance, using his weak basic (assumed magic based ranged) atk for dealing most of his damage. But inevitably between cooldowns and when the debuffs and effects fade Kirito should be able to catch and deal massive damage to Shiroe, which is why the Enchanter class is rarely used as it is only useful in a party setting. Also in regards to Kirito's healing, I think it only works in the PvE setting and any PvP challenge removes this ability, but this is mainly speculation.
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Posted 6/14/14 , edited 6/14/14

D9time wrote:

Any strategy involving TBH would be impossible for Shiroe.

Thorn Bind Hostage
A root spell taking 2 seconds to cast (forgot which ep this was in). It sends out 5 roots that for each "ALLY" hit does 1000 damage for a total of 5000 damage (Ep.4 19:19-19:26). In addition there is a 15 second cooldown (Ep.4 19:38).



As I stated earlier Shiroe's best strategy is using his other skills that lower agility(Astral Bind, Mind Shock, and Nightmare Sphere) and try to keep his distance, using his weak basic (assumed magic based ranged) atk for dealing most of his damage. But inevitably between cooldowns and when the debuffs and effects fade Kirito should be able to catch and deal massive damage to Shiroe, which is why the Enchanter class is rarely used as it is only useful in a party setting. Also in regards to Kirito's healing, I think it only works in the PvE setting and any PvP challenge removes this ability, but this is mainly speculation.


I'll do some further research on TBH to see if it's only exclusive to ally damage. So far, it's not set in stone that Shiroe can't activate the thorns by attacking Kirito himself. I'll update any certified source on to the wiki page.

Without TBH's damage (Shiroe can actually summon additional thorns with additional damage, from what the author said), Shiroe's chances of winning on his own is definitely in jeopardy.
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Posted 6/14/14 , edited 6/14/14
if we assume that kirito doesn't have admin powers especially since arc differences and that they will be fighting in an arena style match. aincrad is a fast pace style game while elder tale is a more traditional style game.

fast paced game are more op. skill are outrageously strong, and movement and attack speed is insane. traditional has a power cap and are limited making strategie all the more important.


if it was a death match, shiroe wins because of unlimited respawn vs none.

but in a traditional sense. shiroe is a support character, it is impossible for him to win in a battle without someones help.

most of shiroe debuff and enhancement needs something he himself does not have or doesn't allow him to kite and go for the kill.

even if kirito gets kited for days, shiroe doesn't have enough damage against his natural healing. but then mana consumption should be something that will keep him from doing so.

the only factors that may affect the outcome aside from this is any items that they bring. such as summoning beast, if elder tale is a traditional rpg than that is factorable where it can proc the thorns damage.

since the fight is between game characters game systems can easily mesh, they will have to obey there own game rules and only time the opponent has to obey the other person game rule is due to a skill or item.

atleast its not like the goku vs luffy battle, where there world and rules don't easily mesh together.
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Posted 6/14/14 , edited 6/14/14
@wolfsaiga

In this death match, first to fall loses. No respawns, no deus ex machina, no "will to survive" will keep anyone pushing past zero health.

SAO's gameplay seems overpowered, but we have to keep something in mind: Kirito's swords do about 700 damage per strike. Most of the techniques he uses doesn't really amplify his damage, so he has to consistently land combinations to kill a target.

Another thing we should remember: Kirito has only fought other melee fighters and beasts, but I don't believe he's EVER fought a mage. Shiroe, on the other hand, was ambushed by a large group of PKers. While Naotsugu handled some on his own, some rogue-like players dashed straight for Shiroe; without missing a beat, Shiroe CC'd and handled them like a pro.

We've also stated Kirito will not have admin powers. (KAYABA HAS NO POWER HERE!) Same with Shiroe not being able to create new magic, since that law is only bound to Elder Tale. Otherwise, it's anything goes 1v1.

Shiroe also has a lot of nasty debuffs. He has a large AOE snare, an AOE sleep spell, Astral Bind and of course, Thorn Bind Hostage. That's a lot of spells to keep him alive for a long time. We also have Electric Fuzz, which is a DoT and marks Kirito, making him unable to stealth while whittling away his health in spite of his regen.

The major deciding factor right now is if Thorn Bind Hostage can be utilized with Shiroe's physical or magical attacks. So far we know allies can utilize it, but it's unclear if Shiroe can do the same for himself. If it doesn't, Kirito will eventually close in for the kill. But if it does, Shiroe may pull an upset.
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Posted 6/14/14
This thread has made me realize that Kiriko's class would be fucking horrible in a normal MMO. He's pretty much a rogue/warrior hybrid (using the WoW terms that still clog up my brain 7 years later...) and lacks what makes those classes viable against ranged classes. No stunlock, barely any distance closers, no CC breaking, no magic defense abilities (spell reflect, for instance), etc.

I think it'd end up a in a 20 minute kite fest battling Shiroe's mana vs. Kirito's health. I'd need cast times and spell mana counts to make any real guess, but even with just a Nightmare Sphere and Electrical Fuzz combo it'd be hard to lose as long as he keeps mind of his surroundings. It'd just take forever.

Are there diminishing effects in LH? <--- this is huge.

Disclaimer: this is just the gamer in me talking, I haven't seen LH and watched SAO a while ago.

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Posted 6/14/14
A thought just occurred to me.

What if to remove the whole "Shiroe being a support class and terrible for PVP" debate, we have both Kirito and Shiroe placed in this arena with one of their allies? For instance, Naotsugu with Shiroe and Asuna with Kirito.

I know this removes the whole 1v1 purpose of this thread but I'm just curious as to how the dynamic would shift.
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Posted 6/14/14 , edited 6/14/14
Kirito would win nah i don't even know XD i haven't even seen log horizon
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