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Crossover Battle! Kirito VS Shiroe!
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Posted 6/14/14 , edited 6/14/14

Flexecute wrote:
I'm starting to think the people that voted for Kirito don't even play MMOs.


Me too.


D9time wrote:

Any strategy involving TBH would be impossible for Shiroe.

Thorn Bind Hostage
A root spell taking 2 seconds to cast (forgot which ep this was in). It sends out 5 roots that for each "ALLY" hit does 1000 damage for a total of 5000 damage (Ep.4 19:19-19:26). In addition there is a 15 second cooldown (Ep.4 19:38).



As I stated earlier Shiroe's best strategy is using his other skills that lower agility(Astral Bind, Mind Shock, and Nightmare Sphere) and try to keep his distance, using his weak basic (assumed magic based ranged) atk for dealing most of his damage. But inevitably between cooldowns and when the debuffs and effects fade Kirito should be able to catch and deal massive damage to Shiroe, which is why the Enchanter class is rarely used as it is only useful in a party setting. Also in regards to Kirito's healing, I think it only works in the PvE setting and any PvP challenge removes this ability, but this is mainly speculation.


Nope, that's wrong. As I've said Shiroe's TBH doesn't have a cast time and doesn't suffer from an actual cooldown. He is decked out in legendaries that boost TBH. After all if his TBH had a cast time and an actual downtime in duration vs cooldown they could have never pulled off the combo he and Nyanta did against Demikas.

Also like I said it doesn't even matter if Shiroe cannot trigger TBH's charges himself. Even without the charges Shiroe's TBH acts as a perma CC. You cannot ignore this fact.


buldieb wrote:

This thread has made me realize that Kiriko's class would be fucking horrible in a normal MMO. He's pretty much a rogue/warrior hybrid (using the WoW terms that still clog up my brain 7 years later...) and lacks what makes those classes viable against ranged classes. No stunlock, barely any distance closers, no CC breaking, no magic defense abilities (spell reflect, for instance), etc.

I think it'd end up a in a 20 minute kite fest battling Shiroe's mana vs. Kirito's health. I'd need cast times and spell mana counts to make any real guess, but even with just a Nightmare Sphere and Electrical Fuzz combo it'd be hard to lose as long as he keeps mind of his surroundings. It'd just take forever.

Are there diminishing effects in LH? <--- this is huge.

Disclaimer: this is just the gamer in me talking, I haven't seen LH and watched SAO a while ago.



IKR. It's like many people here don't even really play MMOs for not understanding that fact. Basically the way SAO was designed... almost everyone is really horrible for PvP if they are pitted against other classes in other MMOs. They'd just get kited to death really.

Really... Kirito would need admin powers or have some sort of diminishing effect on CCs implemented for him to have a chance to win.
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Posted 6/14/14
I think the outcome of the battle will come straight down to variables. In a straight-up fight, Kirito would win simply because his class is meant for combat, while Shiroe's is meant for support. However, because Shiroe has superb strategy skills, it is entirely possible for him to turn the fight around, from using the environment to his advantage to simply putting Kirito in a tough spot.
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Posted 6/14/14
Kirito makes the impossible, posible and shiroe can barely do something.. lol im not a fan of anybody just personal thoughts
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Posted 6/14/14 , edited 6/14/14
I'm actually going to say that Shiroe would win the fight because, as others have pointed out, he can simply dance around spamming CC attacks and kiting while Kirito has no worthwhile ranged attacks or, going by the summary in the OP at least, a way to break out of CC (despite the fact that in a real MMO 1v1 situation he probably *would* because going into PvP without someway to mitigate CC is suicidal).

Sure one would imagine that Kirito's damage given advantageous conditions would be significantly higher then Shiroes, but that doesn't matter if he can't actually hit him in the first place. His agility means nothing if he can't move or is incapacitated. Typically in MMOs in a straight up 1v1 fight ranged CCer is going to have a distinct advantage against pure melee DPS, even if that CCer is a support character. He still does damage so he'd win eventually. Without his plot hacks and admin abilities there's really nothing Kirito could do but stand there frustrated that he can't actually do anything until he dies.

Kirito is fortunate that apparently nobody he fought in SAO knows how to kite.

Of course we have to acknowledge this is a silly argument in the first place, but just going by my own real life MMO experience that's what I'd argue.
D9time 
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Posted 6/14/14



Please actually re-watch everything. It is stated clear as day
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Posted 6/14/14 , edited 6/14/14

Flexecute wrote:

I'm starting to think the people that voted for Kirito don't even play MMOs.


OK, here's my problem with this statement:

Are we doing a Death Battle or are they just meeting in some MMO at some point like in any MMORPG?

Because I'm assuming it's like ScrewAttack's Death Battle...which means it's basically the characters as we see them in their respective anime.

It's not an MMO as we know it and more like two superheroes battling it out. That means I think it's two characters who don't know anything about the other or the world they suddenly appear in. They meet. They feel the need to fight. That's automatically a benefit towards Kirito, right off the bat, as would Shiroe's lack of a comfort zone in direct battles. Not to mention you have a guy who played solo in a game of death for almost two years against someone who's entire ideology is hanging around in the back, creating strategies, and buffing his allies while weakening his opponents. Then you take into account the fact Shiroe's class isn't built for fighting solo vs. Kirito's warrior class (whatever the hell it is). All of these are HUUUUGE advantages for Kirito.

Hell, ScrewAttack, itself, did a Death Battle between Spiderman and Batman similar to these characters where the Death Battle crew admits that the outcome would have been different if Batman was given time to prepare.

TL;DR - I'm thinking this battle takes place in a "real world" of some facet where neither one knows now can prepare for the other. Which means Kirito wins, in my book.

If we're not doing a ScrewAttack Death Battle and this is just like they were playing an MMO, then I will recuse myself from this debate due to lack of experience.

Although, from all of your posts it seems like when you posted this thread, you had a predetermined victor in Shiroe and are basically discounting Kirito has a chance, at all. And if that's the case, what was the point of this thread?

EDIT: Adjusted some because I suck at grammar and spelling... -.-;
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Posted 6/14/14

D9time wrote:




Please actually re-watch everything. It is stated clear as day

Like I've said... Shiroe's TBH's duration is as long as it's cooldown. I dunno how many times I have to say this before you get it. Shiroe is loaded with legendaries that affects his skills. His TBH > the average TBH. Again that is how Shiroe and Nyanta did their combo.
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Posted 6/14/14
Wait... this thread actually kicked off into a debate?


DAFUQ?
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Posted 6/14/14
*thinks*

Why would Shiroe be in the arena in the first place? His whole characterization depends on being able to achieve his goals without getting into situations where he has to throw down directly.
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Posted 6/14/14 , edited 6/14/14

LionelJeid wrote:


Flexecute wrote:

I'm starting to think the people that voted for Kirito don't even play MMOs.


OK, here's my problem with this statement:

Are we doing a Death Battle or they just meet in some MMO at some point like in any MMORPG?

Because I'm assuming it's like ScrewAttack's Death Battle...which means it's basically the characters as we see them in their respective anime.

It's not an MMO as we know it and more like two superheroes battling it out. That means I think it's two characters who don't know anything about the other or the world they suddenly appear in. They meet. They feel the need to fight. All of that is automatically a benefit towards Kirito, right off the bat, and because of Shiroe's comfort zone in their battles. Not to mention you have a guy who played solo in a game of death for almost two years against someone who's entire idology is hanging around in the back, create strategies, and buff his allies while hampering his opponents. Then you take into account the fact Shiroe's class isn't built for fighting solo vs. Kirito's warrior class (whatever the hell it is). All of those are HUUUUGE advantages for Kirito.

Hell, ScrewAttack, itself, did a Death Battle between Spiderman and Batman similar to these characters where the Death Battle crew admits that the outcome would have been different if Batman was given time to prepare.

TL;DR - I'm thinking this battle takes place in a "real world" of some facet where neither one knows now can prepare for the other. Which means Kirito wins, in my book.

If we're not doing a ScrewAttack Death Battle and this is just like they were playing an MMO, then I will recuse myself from this debate due to lack of experience.

Although, from all of your posts it seems like when you posted this thread, you had a predetermined victor in Shiroe and are basically discounting Kirito has a chance, at all. And if that's the case, what was the point of this thread?


You just nailed it. There is nothing else to say.
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Posted 6/14/14 , edited 6/14/14

Stonewolfe wrote:

Wait... this thread actually kicked off into a debate?


DAFUQ?


Dude, Fantasy Matches are amazing. Don't knock them. XD
You gain some nice insight into the characters and abilities by using the evidence of the source material for each guy, and it ends up as a fun little diversion to just go and have fun with.

Now, I can't really participate in this match as I have not yet watched (or read) Log Horizon, so I am unfamiliar with all the details. However, I will say this much. Using real MMOs as any example in these matches is also meaningless. Best to go with what the characters have shown and accomplished in their respective series. Any limitations Kirito has in his game world should stay in play and same for Shiroe. No need to over-think that aspect. Just use their what was shown in each source material, and you will be fine for these types of debates.
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Posted 6/14/14
LoL this thread....Can Yujiro of Grappler Baki get in on this if we are doing in real world fights?
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Posted 6/14/14

cay032692 wrote:

LoL this thread....Can Yujiro of Grappler Baki get in on this if we are doing in real world fights?


Goku needs to get in on this. Let's do a Shounen Free-for-all.

Seriously. Somebody needs to make a MOBA of this. >>
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Posted 6/14/14 , edited 6/14/14

Flexecute wrote:



The major deciding factor right now is if Thorn Bind Hostage can be utilized with Shiroe's physical or magical attacks. So far we know allies can utilize it, but it's unclear if Shiroe can do the same for himself. If it doesn't, Kirito will eventually close in for the kill. But if it does, Shiroe may pull an upset.


and it doesn't, shiro cannot proc it himself with his own skills. which is why i stated items that allows him to summon a companion to battle such as a imp or what not.

also there is also a factor of armor, resist that we do not know for the two character. but without that info, since kirito uses a dual slash method the damage goes easily to 1400 per set. his starbreak stream would then allow him to do 96% of shiroe's health.

don't forget that the person shiroe dealt with was of lower level. also even though most of kirito's enemies were melee, there effective range was that of an archer, plus in elfenheim it shows that he understood how to deal with range attacks. shiroe is an amazing strategist, but don't forget that kirito was a genius on his own.

shiroe mana is limited, he can only attack in small sequences. we don't know his regen rate. i doubt it is big, and thus i believe that kirito passive health is more than enough to save him. most of shiroe CC skills that roots him in some way will be release the moment he attack or if kirito get hurt.

but like i said, although the character in SAO is op, the variety of items in elder tale are more op. and i bet shiroe has hundred of items that he can use. but since we don't know that and assume that its not there than he would lose.
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Posted 6/14/14

MartianMage wrote:


Flexecute wrote:
I'm starting to think the people that voted for Kirito don't even play MMOs.


Me too.


D9time wrote:

Any strategy involving TBH would be impossible for Shiroe.

Thorn Bind Hostage
A root spell taking 2 seconds to cast (forgot which ep this was in). It sends out 5 roots that for each "ALLY" hit does 1000 damage for a total of 5000 damage (Ep.4 19:19-19:26). In addition there is a 15 second cooldown (Ep.4 19:38).



As I stated earlier Shiroe's best strategy is using his other skills that lower agility(Astral Bind, Mind Shock, and Nightmare Sphere) and try to keep his distance, using his weak basic (assumed magic based ranged) atk for dealing most of his damage. But inevitably between cooldowns and when the debuffs and effects fade Kirito should be able to catch and deal massive damage to Shiroe, which is why the Enchanter class is rarely used as it is only useful in a party setting. Also in regards to Kirito's healing, I think it only works in the PvE setting and any PvP challenge removes this ability, but this is mainly speculation.


Nope, that's wrong. As I've said Shiroe's TBH doesn't have a cast time and doesn't suffer from an actual cooldown. He is decked out in legendaries that boost TBH. After all if his TBH had a cast time and an actual downtime in duration vs cooldown they could have never pulled off the combo he and Nyanta did against Demikas.

Also like I said it doesn't even matter if Shiroe cannot trigger TBH's charges himself. Even without the charges Shiroe's TBH acts as a perma CC. You cannot ignore this fact.


buldieb wrote:

This thread has made me realize that Kiriko's class would be fucking horrible in a normal MMO. He's pretty much a rogue/warrior hybrid (using the WoW terms that still clog up my brain 7 years later...) and lacks what makes those classes viable against ranged classes. No stunlock, barely any distance closers, no CC breaking, no magic defense abilities (spell reflect, for instance), etc.

I think it'd end up a in a 20 minute kite fest battling Shiroe's mana vs. Kirito's health. I'd need cast times and spell mana counts to make any real guess, but even with just a Nightmare Sphere and Electrical Fuzz combo it'd be hard to lose as long as he keeps mind of his surroundings. It'd just take forever.

Are there diminishing effects in LH? <--- this is huge.

Disclaimer: this is just the gamer in me talking, I haven't seen LH and watched SAO a while ago.



IKR. It's like many people here don't even really play MMOs for not understanding that fact. Basically the way SAO was designed... almost everyone is really horrible for PvP if they are pitted against other classes in other MMOs. They'd just get kited to death really.

Really... Kirito would need admin powers or have some sort of diminishing effect on CCs implemented for him to have a chance to win.


I totally agree, Martin. Kirito would totally lose, thanks to Shiroe's mage attacks and mainly TBH. I love Kiri-chan and all, but he'd lose to Shiroe's awesomeness in a heartbeat
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