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Parental consent in abortion for minors
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Posted 6/26/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


Kraisis wrote:

Parental consent is a must, most people under the age of 18 are complete retards, so having older persons with more life experience giving consent is a good way to keep the kid from murdering an innocent child. The terrible fact that abortion is legal is awful, but just like tattoos, piercing and even marriage, minors should all ways need consent from parents / guardians. This way hopefully the older persons (parents / guardians) are not complete retards and steer the minor from what could a terrible life decision. Killing a baby in the womb is a terrible thing, its like murdering someone who cant even say "help I'm alive, don't hurt me". At least having one smart parent saying no, to stop the minor from killing a precious child, I'd say is a damn good thing. (hope thats better Loreen)


So you'd rather have a young girl who is not mature enough to have a child, both physicly and mentally go through the risk of giving birth to a child -- something that can be dangerous even for mature adults -- rather than aborting that which has still not developed into a human?

Also, your view on the case is terribly narrow. Why would aborting a child that she's not mature enough to take care of nor want be a terrible life decision? It hasn't even developed into a human. If it had, then it would be illegal. That's why there are limitations to how late you are allowed to have an abortion.

And what if the girl ended up dying in the process? Or is at risk at dying and the only way to save her is to have an abortion? Stuff like that happens, you know... Should she then still not be allowed to have an abortion?

Your reasoning is basicly that it's totally cool to put an already existing life on the line in order to save a life that still doesn't exist.


Three things that prove to me youre an idiot.

One(1). You said "both physically and mentally" not mature enough for childbirth? Hello, if shes impregnated she obviously physically ready, duh.

Two(2). You said "it hasn't developed into a human". It is a human! from the start!, that's like saying a toddler isn't a human because he isn't fully developed! seriously!

Three(3). you said "what if the girl ended up dying in the process". Fun fact for ya, you have a higher chance of dying in an automobile accident then giving birth (guess you're gonna stop driving now huh?).
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Posted 6/26/14 , edited 6/26/14

Kraisis
Three things that prove to me youre an idiot.

One(1). You said "both physically and mentally" not mature enough for childbirth? Hello, if shes impregnated she obviously physically ready, duh.

Two(2). You said "it hasn't developed into a human". It is a human! from the start!, that's like saying a toddler isn't a human because he isn't fully developed! seriously!

Three(3). you said "what if the girl ended up dying in the process". Fun fact for ya, you have a higher chance of dying in an automobile accident then giving birth (guess you're gonna stop driving now huh?).


1. No. Many girls are able to get pregnant before they turn 12. That does not mean that they are ready to sqeeze an entire baby out from their nether-regions. That should be obvious.

2. No. A toddler is a human because it is alive, with a concience, emotions and feelings. A fetus in its early stages is not. It is nothing but a dead mass of cells. Not at all comparable nor any more of a full human than any random organ on its own.
You might as well say that a spermcell is a human because it may eventually turn into one. So long as it hasn't turned into a human, it's not a human.

3. Except that driving, or relying on some sort of transport is completely necessary for most people. Giving birth is not. Also, the risks of dying while giving birth rises substantially when the mother is still not fully matured.
That too should be blatantly obvious.
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/publications-a-z/436-adolescent-maternal-mortality-an-overlooked-crisis

Did you put ANY thought into this what so ever?
I suggest the next time you intend to call someone an idiot, you stop and actually think for a minute first to ensure that you don't come off as one yourself...
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Posted 6/26/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


Kraisis
Three things that prove to me youre an idiot.

One(1). You said "both physically and mentally" not mature enough for childbirth? Hello, if shes impregnated she obviously physically ready, duh.

Two(2). You said "it hasn't developed into a human". It is a human! from the start!, that's like saying a toddler isn't a human because he isn't fully developed! seriously!

Three(3). you said "what if the girl ended up dying in the process". Fun fact for ya, you have a higher chance of dying in an automobile accident then giving birth (guess you're gonna stop driving now huh?).


1. No. Many girls are able to get pregnant before they turn 12. That does not mean that they are ready to sqeeze an entire baby out from their nether-regions. That should be obvious.

2. No. A toddler is a human. Because it is alive, with a concience, emotions and feelings. A fetus in its early stages is not. It is nothing but a dead mass of cells. Not at all comparable.
You might as well say that a spermcell is a human because it may eventually turn into one. So long as it hasn't turned into a human, it's not a human.

3. Except that driving, or relying on some sort of transport is completely necessary for most people. Giving birth is not. Also, the risks of dying while giving birth rises substantially when the mother is still not fully matured.
That too should be blatantly obvious.
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/publications-a-z/436-adolescent-maternal-mortality-an-overlooked-crisis

Did you put ANY thought into this what so ever?
I suggest the next time you intend to call someone an idiot, you stop and actually think for a minute first to ensure that you don't come off as one yourself...


You are the dumbest piece of shit I have encountered, not because you have opposing views to mine, but because of you lack the basic fundamentals of logic. How can you reason with someone, if they cant grasp the concept of logic?

1. when the human body is ready to reproduce (yes even at age 12) it is ready to give birth. Reproduce(sex) leads to Giving birth. Write that down.

2. Read closely! Logic ahead! How does a dead mass of cells become a human? When the dead mass of cells gets federalized! It then starts to develop! into what? A human! From the start! Fertilization! Its not that hard to see.

3.*sigh* this really gets me. Driving is necessary for people but giving birth is not? ITS NECESSARY FOR EVERY PERSON TO BE BORN IN ORDER TO BE ALIVE!

And yeah I don't need as much time to think like you do, because i already know how to use logic and understanding as tools to my thought process.


And Parental consent Is a Must for abortion #Loreen
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Posted 6/26/14 , edited 6/26/14

Kraisis
You are the dumbest piece of shit I have encountered, not because you have opposing views to mine, but because of you lack the basic fundamentals of logic. How can you reason with someone, if they cant grasp the concept of logic?

1. when the human body is ready to reproduce (yes even at age 12) it is ready to give birth. Reproduce(sex) leads to Giving birth. Write that down.

2. Read closely! Logic ahead! How does a dead mass of cells become a human? When the dead mass of cells gets federalized! It then starts to develop! into what? A human! From the start! Fertilization! Its not that hard to see.

3.*sigh* this really gets me. Driving is necessary for people but giving birth is not? ITS NECESSARY FOR EVERY PERSON TO BE BORN IN ORDER TO BE ALIVE!

And yeah I don't need as much time to think like you do, because i already know how to use logic and understanding as tools to my thought process.

And Parental consent Is a Must for abortion #Loreen


Thanks for insulting me. That sure helped you make your case.

Now...

1: I didn't say they'd be physicly unable to. I said they were not ready. That's two quite different things.
She will be able to grow the baby, and it will have to come out at some point, but if her body is not mature, then she will suffer damage from it.

Even if the baby is able to grow inside of her, doesn't mean that her body is developed enough to properly handle the process of actually giving birth to the thing that grows inside of her.
I suggest you read the link I sent you earlier.
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/publications-a-z/436-adolescent-maternal-mortality-an-overlooked-crisis

2: Yes. It will eventually develop into a human. But it's not a human YET. And that's the important part.

3: Yes. Being born is indeed necessary. But being born and giving birth are two VASTLY different things.
And it is not necessary to give birth. It is necessary that there are people who do it, yes, but it is perfectly possible to live an entire life without having to give birth as well.

Honestly, how are you not able to make the seperation between "being able" and "being ready" or between "being born" and "giving birth"?
Once again, I suggest that before you call someone a dumb piece of shit, you should make sure that you're able to make out the difference between two vastly different concepts.
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Posted 6/27/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


Kraisis
You are the dumbest piece of shit I have encountered, not because you have opposing views to mine, but because of you lack the basic fundamentals of logic. How can you reason with someone, if they cant grasp the concept of logic?

1. when the human body is ready to reproduce (yes even at age 12) it is ready to give birth. Reproduce(sex) leads to Giving birth. Write that down.

2. Read closely! Logic ahead! How does a dead mass of cells become a human? When the dead mass of cells gets federalized! It then starts to develop! into what? A human! From the start! Fertilization! Its not that hard to see.

3.*sigh* this really gets me. Driving is necessary for people but giving birth is not? ITS NECESSARY FOR EVERY PERSON TO BE BORN IN ORDER TO BE ALIVE!

And yeah I don't need as much time to think like you do, because i already know how to use logic and understanding as tools to my thought process.

And Parental consent Is a Must for abortion #Loreen


Thanks for insulting me. That sure helped you make your case.

Now...

1: I didn't say they'd be physicly unable to. I said they were not ready. That's two quite different things.
She will be able to grow the baby, and it will have to come out at some point, but if her body is not mature, then she will suffer damage from it.

Even if the baby is able to grow inside of her, doesn't mean that her body is developed enough to properly handle the process of actually giving birth to the thing that grows inside of her.
I suggest you read the link I sent you earlier.
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/publications-a-z/436-adolescent-maternal-mortality-an-overlooked-crisis

2: Yes. It will eventually develop into a human. But it's not a human YET. And that's the important part.

3: Yes. Being born is indeed necessary. But being born and giving birth are two VASTLY different things.
And it is not necessary to give birth. It is necessary that there are people who do it, yes, but it is perfectly possible to live an entire life without having to give birth as well.

Honestly, how are you not able to make the seperation between "being able" and "being ready" or between "being born" and "giving birth"?
Once again, I suggest that before you call someone a dumb piece of shit, you should make sure that you're able to make out the difference between two vastly different concepts.


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Posted 6/27/14 , edited 6/27/14

Kraisis wrote:


Syndicaidramon wrote:


Kraisis
You are the dumbest piece of shit I have encountered, not because you have opposing views to mine, but because of you lack the basic fundamentals of logic. How can you reason with someone, if they cant grasp the concept of logic?

1. when the human body is ready to reproduce (yes even at age 12) it is ready to give birth. Reproduce(sex) leads to Giving birth. Write that down.

2. Read closely! Logic ahead! How does a dead mass of cells become a human? When the dead mass of cells gets federalized! It then starts to develop! into what? A human! From the start! Fertilization! Its not that hard to see.

3.*sigh* this really gets me. Driving is necessary for people but giving birth is not? ITS NECESSARY FOR EVERY PERSON TO BE BORN IN ORDER TO BE ALIVE!

And yeah I don't need as much time to think like you do, because i already know how to use logic and understanding as tools to my thought process.

And Parental consent Is a Must for abortion #Loreen


Thanks for insulting me. That sure helped you make your case.

Now...

1: I didn't say they'd be physicly unable to. I said they were not ready. That's two quite different things.
She will be able to grow the baby, and it will have to come out at some point, but if her body is not mature, then she will suffer damage from it.

Even if the baby is able to grow inside of her, doesn't mean that her body is developed enough to properly handle the process of actually giving birth to the thing that grows inside of her.
I suggest you read the link I sent you earlier.
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/publications-a-z/436-adolescent-maternal-mortality-an-overlooked-crisis

2: Yes. It will eventually develop into a human. But it's not a human YET. And that's the important part.

3: Yes. Being born is indeed necessary. But being born and giving birth are two VASTLY different things.
And it is not necessary to give birth. It is necessary that there are people who do it, yes, but it is perfectly possible to live an entire life without having to give birth as well.

Honestly, how are you not able to make the seperation between "being able" and "being ready" or between "being born" and "giving birth"?
Once again, I suggest that before you call someone a dumb piece of shit, you should make sure that you're able to make out the difference between two vastly different concepts.




Right. Now how about you give some actual counter -arguments instead?
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Posted 6/27/14 , edited 6/27/14
Refrain from making unrelated post. I'm tired of reporting for the same things.
Abortion thread is here http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-4605/abortion

mdmrn wrote:

The rules for minors require parents to consent to everything from them being allowed to ingest alcohol, to them being allowed to have Tylenol in school, to them having plastic surgery, to minors getting certain piercings, to minors being allowed to go tanning, etc. Why should, again, a potentially invasive medical procedure which has major risks be exempted? Because it involves their reproductive organs? Not a good enough reason. It's still a medical procedure. It still has risks. Parents need to be informed.
Yes. It isn't the same as getting a tattoo or a belly piercing. If a parent refuses their daughter from getting a tattoo, she will refer back to her normal life. If a parent refuses their daughter from getting an abortion, she can't go back to her normal life, her belly will blow up. Same if she doesn't give birth. Omission of a tattoo requires her to literally do nothing. Where as omission of birth requires an abortion. Both NOT giving birth or NOT having abortion requires for her to DO some short of action where as NOT getting a tattoo is about refraining the action.

Kraisis wrote:

Parental consent is a must, most people under the age of 18 are complete retards, so having older persons with more life experience giving consent is a good way to keep the kid from murdering an innocent child. The terrible fact that abortion is legal is awful, but just like tattoos, piercing and even marriage, minors should all ways need consent from parents / guardians. This way hopefully the older persons (parents / guardians) are not complete retards and steer the minor from what could a terrible life decision. Killing a baby in the womb is a terrible thing, its like murdering someone who cant even say "help I'm alive, don't hurt me". At least having one smart parent saying no, to stop the minor from killing a precious child, I'd say is a damn good thing. (hope thats better Loreen)
Contrary to belief, there are teens who want to keep their child. Laws will not prevent minors from aborting if there are parents against their underage daughters from giving birth (which I can assume is many parents). Those parents will do anything to stop their daughters from giving birth. Like I have said before, there are parents who will force their daughters to have abortions right after they are informed even if the girl doesn't want to. The question could be easily changed to, do you think parents should give consent for minors to give birth?

Syndicaidramon wrote:

But what's the alternative?
If the parents DO give consent, then there wasn't really a need for them to give consent, because the outcome would be the same.
But if the parents DOESN'T give consent, then that means the girl will have to keep the baby. Possibly even give birth to it. Something that is without a doubt FAR more damaging and risky than a simple medical procedure.

I really don't think your case makes much sense here, because having the medical procedure is in all cases safer than not having the procedure.
For people who are against consent laws, do you think minors should be legally required to notify their parents before getting an abortion?
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Posted 6/27/14 , edited 6/27/14

FlyinDumplingFor people who are against consent laws, do you think minors should be legally required to notify their parents before getting an abortion?


No.
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Posted 7/10/14 , edited 7/10/14


So , very little of that incoherent rant was worth the seconds it took to read.

I would however, like to know when a lump of cells becomes federalized. This is very interesting to me.
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Posted 7/10/14 , edited 7/10/14
In CZ till the age of 16 parental consent is required. And the abortion must be paid from your own pocket.


Yes, it is good that even minors get to decide about it, but on the other hand it is also bad, since the parents will "never" know about it, and eventually will never realise that there is an issue going on in their family. I also wonder about the psychological effects abortion has on minors. It plagues grownups, then what about minors? It's sad when there is no moral support from their family there. But of course, I assume that children who do this without their parents knowing about it do have their reasons (shitty parents, and so on)
There is no universal solution for this anyway.
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I live in America, so Roe v. Wade makes the mothers decision on whether she does or does not want to have a child protected by the law. And, I believe that is for the best.
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Posted 7/12/14
In my state I'm not TOO sure but I do believe that minors can get a safe, private abortion without parental consent. And I approve of this decision. It is not up to a girl's parents to force her to have a baby. If a girl/woman does not feel ready for a child it is cruel and unusual punishment to force them to give birth. That's like forcing your child to get a limb amputated because you/your religion believe that it's wrong to have that limb for some reason. It handicaps the person for life, and the best person to decide whether they want that handicap at all is the person whose body it is.
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Posted 7/21/14
Parental consent all the way. It's nice to have Ideals, but you can't argue based on the exceptions.
The fact is. The parents might make the girl keep the child. However a doctor is supposed to advise you and help you make an informed decision. If it is extremely dangerous to continue with the baby to term based on the patients medical history or current state, they will advise accordingly. This is under assumption that they want to go ahead with it.

There are a lot of things to consider. A law is made to benefit the greatest amount of people possible. The remaining people and circumstances the law doesn't reach are dealt with on a case by case basis. You don't have to like it.

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Posted 7/21/14 , edited 7/21/14

teima wrote:

Parental consent all the way. It's nice to have Ideals, but you can't argue based on the exceptions.
The fact is. The parents might make the girl keep the child. However a doctor is supposed to advise you and help you make an informed decision. If it is extremely dangerous to continue with the baby to term based on the patients medical history or current state, they will advise accordingly. This is under assumption that they want to go ahead with it.

There are a lot of things to consider. A law is made to benefit the greatest amount of people possible. The remaining people and circumstances the law doesn't reach are dealt with on a case by case basis. You don't have to like it.



That is the primary reason for why parental consent should NOT be required.
How on earth is that an argument as to why it SHOULD be required?
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Posted 7/21/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


teima wrote:

Parental consent all the way. It's nice to have Ideals, but you can't argue based on the exceptions.
The fact is. The parents might make the girl keep the child. However a doctor is supposed to advise you and help you make an informed decision. If it is extremely dangerous to continue with the baby to term based on the patients medical history or current state, they will advise accordingly. This is under assumption that they want to go ahead with it.

There are a lot of things to consider. A law is made to benefit the greatest amount of people possible. The remaining people and circumstances the law doesn't reach are dealt with on a case by case basis. You don't have to like it.



That is the primary reason for why parental consent should NOT be required.
How on earth is that an argument as to why it SHOULD be required?

It's not a reason as why it should be required. I was both acknowledging that it MIGHT happen and simultaneously using it as an example of an argument based on an exception. Though Assumption might have been a better word. Since the exception of being forced to have a baby at a young age whilst it being life-threatening or ending in death was moreso implied.

The rest of the post was a short look in to the purpose and function of laws, in reference to this topic.
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