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Magic (Magick) Real or Not? I want to hear your thoughts
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Posted 6/27/14 , edited 6/27/14
Hey everyone,

this is actually the first activity I've ever had on the Crunchyroll forum despite having been a member for a couple of years, so I sincerely apologise beforehand if I mess up the post and my responses.
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INFORMATION

Magic - something that has been ('existed?') in our world for thousands of years. In fact, the very origins of magic we hear about today almost all started during the time of the Ancient Greeks. Now, before you start throwing hateful comments at me I'd like to clear up a few things about myself personally as belief and thoughts about magic are purely a personal matter;

I'm a normal 16-year-old high school student in the UK (normal within human extent anyway). I have had no historical, spiritual or religious beliefs forced upon me in my life and currently do not follow any religions. However, this is not to say I don't believe in magic or spirits/gods. I have a hard time trusting everything science lays claim to.

Magic has many different origins all over the world, and the word magic has many different meanings to every person. I have personally (starting a few hours ago anyway) taken the liberty of doing personal research. There were many online arguments where people's religious views and spiritual views completely collided with each other and as stated earlier I am not taking sides with this, I'm just stating my opinion and would like to hear everyone else's personal views too (without hate spreading, which I'm sure it will somewhere down the line). I've heard many people claim, 'magic means illusion' and 'all magic is just the work of demons'. While I have not evidence to disagree with what you are saying (much like you likely have no evidence to support what you are saying), my personal views take a completely different approach.


MY PERSONAL VIEWS

To set magic aside for one second, I've never been able to bring myself to accept the scientific theories that are constantly taught and suggested in our daily lives. Having said this, I don't believe in any of the great religions either - I simply have my own beliefs, beliefs of the balance of all things positive and negative (the co-existence of powers - one of the few scientific things I can agree on) and certain beings and powers that are possibly beyond not our understanding, but our ability to accept these things.

To put this in other words, if everyone reading this post was in a room together and I asked you to say if you believed in magic, the majority of you would say 'no' purely to save the fact of someone believing you are crazy. Even for those of you who said yes, the world we've been brought up in has pushed our views away from such a thing as magic being possible and therefore despite what you are saying - you are really lying to yourself. The truth is, no-one reading this post believes in magic 100%. After all, it's not fair judgement to believe what you have not seen. However, when I look around and realise that just life alone exists it's enough for me to say I believe in magic. Perhaps it's not the great kind of magic I'm looking for that I may find in a fantasy, mahou-shoujo type story where I can fly and summon flames just by thinking about it - but it is something that fills my magical criteria.

Aleister Crowley (and no, not that guy hanging upside-down in Academy City from the To Aru series) once said:


'What is a Magical Operation? It may be defined as any event in nature which is brought to pass by Will. We must not exclude potato-growing or banking from our definition. Let us take a very simple example of a Magical Act: that of a man blowing his nose.'


While I feel motivated to continue my research, I can't fully believe in it because of this thing that has been forced into my life called 'sanity'. In fact, being English my country (as do other European countries) has a pretty harsh background of murdering thousands of claimed 'witches' and 'sorcerers' in fear of not just magic but people who believed in it were classed as 'insane'. Even by today's standards, believing in magic is an irregular thing to say publicly.

SUMMARY

Perhaps I've been watching too many mahou-shoujo shows lately or perhaps I'm just desperate for something in my life, but much like most other people I really want to believe in magic. The kind where people can cast spells (with magic circles and lights of course, because they are all part of the epicness) and create fun magic potions. Of course there is danger to this (as many anime have probably showed all of you, there is always the 'Imma go destory the world now because my magic is that OP' character), but I guess that links with the saying 'with great power comes great responsibility'. I don't believe this whole magic is demonic power situation at all, I believe magic is a physical part of someone and how strong it is and how it is used is entirely dependent upon the user. Perhaps it is something from the heart or something learned from a book, maybe it's both. I also believe in the different 'black magic' which normally does involve evil gods and spirits. However, the more human 'magic tricks' is a little harder to talk about because it is real (we can see it everyday), but then I guess it's not really magic as the name states, it's only a 'trick'.

Anyway, thanks a lot for reading and I hope to read many interesting responses. I'm sorry if I take my time replying, I'm working 20 hours part-time this weekend (is it even part-time at that point?) and I'm off to Japan in 4 days so busy times, hehe. Once again, thanks for reading, please tell me your personal thoughts! Any comments that are 'offensive' or 'imply' something is true will be deleted. As asked, I want to hear what you believe, but don't make it sound like your belief is just 'correct', especially religious beliefs because then we'll just have the world's biggest argument going on in the comments section.

Always remember:

All actions have consequences, and all consequences happen as a result of certain actions.

I read this in an article about magic and the ancient beliefs about it. It's interesting, as it's a multi-view mindset that is used on a human level as well, especially in detective type jobs. It also fulfills another of my magical criteria, balance. One event causes another event to happen. I guess you could link it with 'one's gain is another's loss'. Someone falls over. You use your energy, time and effort to help them and are (I guess generally anyway) repaid with thanks.
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38 / M / Kansas
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Posted 6/27/14 , edited 8/22/14
Chunibyo is epic. I say go for it.
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18 / M / Twin Cities, Minn...
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Posted 6/27/14 , edited 6/27/14
I don't believe in the existence of magic. By my definition, magic is something that can't be explained with science, and if something resembling magic could be explained with science, then it's not really magic. I've been taught that everything we know has a scientific explaination (or still needs a scientific explaination) behind it, which means magic can't exist.
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21 / M / The Netherlands
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Posted 6/27/14
No
/thread
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Posted 6/27/14 , edited 6/27/14

No
/thread


What do you mean?
Haha, as I said I don't use forums much so if I've done something wrong please inform me! m(__)m
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Posted 6/27/14 , edited 6/27/14
Kind of along the lines of what Exerorg said, I'm curious as to how you "define" magic.

Magic is used in narratives as an abstract plot device which is often underdeveloped, though lately there has been (some) mixing of the traits we associate with science and the traits we associate with magic. ...

The issue with "Magic" as a concept is it has been interpreted in so many different ways by so many different people. Just asking someone if they "believe in magic" is extremely vague.

If you define magic as "supernatural phenomena", the next question is "what's a supernatural phenomena?" If you answer that as "anything that isn't fully explainable by the beliefs we're led to through our day to day experience", the obvious answer is "yes, I haven't seen everything in this universe, I don't know everything." If we assume the average of other people's experiences can be used as a means to describe that range of phenomena we can experience, then the existence of "magical" phenomena seems highly unlikely simply because most people don't believe such phenomena exist as per their experiences (a little something called data).

Of course, that data is restricted to our little corner of the universe, so things >could< be different elsewhere, but unless FTL travel is invented we'll never know.

I just think the idea that there are phenomena in the vicinity of our small planet at a macroscopic (human-scale) level that people don't agree exist is extremely far-fetched unless such phenomena are random, unpredictable, and extremely rare (that'd be pretty boring magic, I'd say).


-M


EDIT: According to some more recent theories in physics, certain things (like making an object spontaneously disappear) aren't necessarily impossible (quantum mechanics, yo), they just only occur at an atomic level. These phenomena could be classified as magic simply because they are so "strange" compared to what we experience in the macroscopic world.
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Posted 6/27/14
I studied magick for a few years (ceremonial magick, chaos magick, non-wiccan witchcraft.) The more I studied the less impressed I was and I'm convinced that it's all woo. Really cool, fun woo, but woo nonetheless. That's okay, though. Fantasy is an awesome part of life as long as you don't get delusional about it and think that it will solve your problems. There's something I really love about the whole flavour and feel of witchcraft, but I don't find it to be functional in any way other than as stress relief.

None of the magical texts I read ever even suggested magick to be anything like the flashy stuff in an anime or in Harry Potter. But I also didn't find any of it to be based on any observable mechanism, nor quantifiable in any way. It all amounted to "this could be true, but maybe not." Without any supportive evidence that it works there's no reason to entertain the idea at all. People who write about magick use too much propaganda language and too many logical fallacies, trying to make you ignore the obvious weaknesses in their claims. And honestly, all of it came down to wishful thinking. "I want this to be true, so it is." In fact, it's almost always predicated on the idea that if you don't believe in it, it won't work. That's easy enough to explain: if you believe in it and want it to be true badly enough you'll fall victim to confirmation bias and see results where there are none.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge
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Posted 6/27/14

Exerorg wrote:

I don't believe in the existance of magic. By my definition, magic is something that can't be explained with science, and if something resembling magic could be explained with science, then it's not really magic. I've been taught that everything we know has a scientific explaination (or still needs a scientific explaination) behind it, which means magic can't exist.


so your definition of magic is along the lines of the biblical workings of god walking on water parting the red sea, that over the top kind of stuff/


i think magic would be something like controlled thought transmission. say your thinking about how much you want some thing to happen, like....... oh like how much you want to find one thing you havent been able to find for the longest time then all of a sudden your parent or other person walks in to the room with said thing. my idea of magic would be like that but with a wide variety of applications.
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Posted 6/27/14

Exerorg wrote:

I don't believe in the existance of magic. By my definition, magic is something that can't be explained with science, and if something resembling magic could be explained with science, then it's not really magic. I've been taught that everything we know has a scientific explaination (or still needs a scientific explaination) behind it, which means magic can't exist.


I'm of this viewpoint as I see magic is merely processes for which we do not know the properties and laws of. There is plenty of science we now know that was once considered magic, it is mostly chemistry but also some physics. An interesting occurrence which we cannot explain currently that some may even regard as magic is "Ball Lightning"... its fascinating really, you all should look it up.
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Posted 6/27/14

GreatLordBalzak wrote:
An interesting occurrence which we cannot explain currently that some may even regard as magic is "Ball Lightning"... its fascinating really, you all should look it up.


There's been recent evidence that ball lightning may be a result of burning earth. It's such a rare phenomenon it's hard to study.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2014/jan/09/burning-soil-fuels-ball-lightning
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Posted 6/27/14 , edited 6/27/14
Magic, In essence being able to manipulate energies in order to do something greater, i do believe in it despite not actually having seen such things thought i'm really not sure how related it at all would be but when "healing" (not anything fancy) and when i hold my hands at a place which hurts, doesn't matter if it's on myself or on another person and i think about wanting that pain to subside i can feel almost like a flow in my arms and it does seem to work sometimes, but someone could say that it's just psycological and wanting it to go away which makes it go away or something else, but that is one of the reasons i believe in magic
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Posted 6/27/14
Nekomancy: Cat majicks.
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Ndtm wrote:

Magic, In essence being able to manipulate energies in order to do something greater, i do believe in it despite not actually having seen such things thought i'm really not sure how related it at all would be but when "healing" (not anything fancy) and when i hold my hands at a place which hurts, doesn't matter if it's on myself or on another person and i think about wanting that pain to subside i can feel almost like a flow in my arms and it does seem to work sometimes, but someone could say that it's just psycological and wanting it to go away which makes it go away or something else, but that is one of the reasons i believe in magic


I know what you are saying, and I think this may be something psychological but I guess you'll never really know unfortunately. I guess that kind of 'magic' (being more the typical anime magic I was referring to in my post) is something we all want to believe. I'm not going to tell you it isn't magic, who I am to judge, and for the sake of the injured people you help I can only hope it is...
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Posted 6/27/14

GreatLordBalzak wrote:


Exerorg wrote:

I don't believe in the existance of magic. By my definition, magic is something that can't be explained with science, and if something resembling magic could be explained with science, then it's not really magic. I've been taught that everything we know has a scientific explaination (or still needs a scientific explaination) behind it, which means magic can't exist.


I'm of this viewpoint as I see magic is merely processes for which we do not know the properties and laws of. There is plenty of science we now know that was once considered magic, it is mostly chemistry but also some physics. An interesting occurrence which we cannot explain currently that some may even regard as magic is "Ball Lightning"... its fascinating really, you all should look it up.


Ah, I heard about Ball lightning before once. I understand where you are going with what you are saying too and respect your opinion. However, if there is something scientific laws deem impossible and someone comes along and does (I guess you could say magic in the anime sense of things like witches and transforming etc...) those things, would you still regard it that way?
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Posted 6/27/14
The way I see it, if there's some sort of subtle energy that can interact with human flesh and make you heal, shouldn't it be able to interact with a lab instrument that is also made of matter like your body?

That's also the point of contention I have with the idea of ghosts. If it can be visible and audible and interact with matter enough to move chairs and open cabinet doors, and if it's subject to the Earth's gravitational field (so it stays here instead of getting left behind as the Earth orbits the Sun, and as the Sun orbits the galactic center,) then shouldn't it be really, really easy to detect with lab instruments? We can detect a higgs boson now. Ghosts and "subtle energy" should be no problem at all if they exist.
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