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Magic (Magick) Real or Not? I want to hear your thoughts
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Posted 6/27/14
Gravity is kind of magical considering how little modern physics knows about it.
Posted 6/27/14

themeliorist wrote:


MeikoAkizukiMB wrote:
Why can't things that can't be explained by science be true? By what or by who gets to determine that?


Things that can't be adequately explained by current science can absolutely be true. There are a lot of real world examples like black holes and even more mundane things that we just don't understand but can observe.

The thing that makes the supernatural unscientific isn't that we can't explain it. It's that there is no evidence for its existence. The closest thing to evidence is eyewitness reports, which are not scientifically rigorous enough to be acceptable. There are a lot of reasons for this: confirmation bias, mental health issues, fraud, misunderstanding, poor observation conditions, etc. Our senses are incredibly limited and our brains are bad at processing information objectively. On top of it all, people lie. One person can't know if the other is lying so it doesn't matter if they actually are or not. If you're attempting to demonstrate if something is real you simply can't take anyone's word for it. You need either tangible evidence or a mathematically compelling process based on principles we already understand.


I guess when I was writing that I was talking about how everyday people in general. People who don't dive into science that much but still make assumptions anyway.

I don't think this (I mean me) is explaining much. Basically when I was writing that black holes and such didn't come to mind.

But I do realize that all those things--mental health issues, lying, poor observation conditions, etc.--do occur and can contribute to those supposed supernatural events.

My whole thing is that everyday people, like I mentioned above, will write it all off as those things--mental health issues, etc.--no matter what.

It's like they won't even consider the possibility. They'd be the people who say that my mom and I was crazy and none of those even happened before and after my grandmother died. They'd say we were lying since there was no evidence and because we can't replicate it. And that's what I have issues with, that's all.

Do you get what I'm trying (horribly) to say?
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Posted 6/27/14

moonhawk81 wrote:

Existence is magic.
Magic exists.


I agree with this.

Electricity basically fulfills all the necessary criteria to be considered magic. It's essentially an invisible force that can hurt things, move things, and light things up. It can transmit information quickly over long distances. It even plays a large part in powering your body. Impulses from your brain become electrical signals that get sent through your muscles in order to move your body, turning thoughts into kinetic energy.

On that note, chemistry also qualifies, combining substances to create other substances and harnessing the transfer of energy involved in the process. It can be said that things like explosives, refrigerators, and batteries are all enabled by the existence of magic. Naturally, it also plays a large part in how your body works.

So given that everything that exists is built upon these types of fascinating concepts, I feel it does seem most appropriate to say that existence is magic.
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Posted 6/27/14

themeliorist wrote:



minatothegreatjiraiya wrote:
Yes, but it's almost like...a prejudice. It's difficult to find one that doesn't deal with string theory and yet is given a high status. If it's wrong, then we're basically wasting our resources and time. It should be a little more balanced, in my opinion.


Even if it's wrong in in its ultimate conclusion it's not a waste of time. Each string theory is an enormous framework that is composed of other ideas, many of which were developed as a consequence of research into string theory, yet not all of them are necessarily dependent upon it in order to be true or have theoretical value. New forms of mathematics have been born out of string theory. All of that wouldn't just suddenly go into the trash.

And even if most theoretical physicists find string theory compelling, that is not what a majority of them work on, as there are a lot of proposed theories out there. If someone's research pokes a hole in string theory, they're not going to just sit on it and pretend because of a prejudice. Also, theoretical physics is extremely cheap compared to experimental science. You just need some smart people, some computers, pencils, paper, and a whiteboard. I'm simplifying it of course, but you get the idea.


Of course, no science is ever a waste of time. But, what I'm saying is, those who work on other things aren't given as much standing as those who do work with string theory. It's a lot easier to get places if you work with string theory.
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Posted 6/27/14

MeikoAkizukiMB wrote:
I guess when I was writing that I was talking about how everyday people in general. People who don't dive into science that much but still make assumptions anyway.

I don't think this (I mean me) is explaining much. Basically when I was writing that black holes and such didn't come to mind.

But I do realize that all those things--mental health issues, lying, poor observation conditions, etc.--do occur and can contribute to those supposed supernatural events.

My whole thing is that everyday people, like I mentioned above, will write it all off as those things--mental health issues, etc.--no matter what.

It's like they won't even consider the possibility. They'd be the people who say that my mom and I was crazy and none of those even happened before and after my grandmother died. They'd say we were lying since there was no evidence and because we can't replicate it. And that's what I have issues with, that's all.

Do you get what I'm trying (horribly) to say?


Oh, I totally get what you're trying to say. My point is simply that no matter how subjectively real it is to you or your mother, unless you can demonstrate it to me there's no way that I can take your word for it. Even if I knew you and we were best friends and trusted your judgement I couldn't take your word for something that I have no other reason to accept as being true and that no evidence in the entire world exists for.

You have to be able to look at it from the other person's perspective. What compelling reason could they have to believe you? In such a circumstance I have to reject your claim, even if I really want it to be real. It's not just conversational or an every day life thing. Once you start making claims about the supernatural, even if it's on the basis of every day experience, the implications are cosmic in scope. I start wondering, "How are ghosts affected by gravity? How do they interact with matter? By what mechanism do they hold their shape? How do they produce sound? How do they visually manifest? And why can't any of this be detected by devices that are far more sensitive than our crappy senses are?"

I'll give you an example from my own life. When I was younger I used to think that I was the victim of attacks by ghostly entities until I discovered that I suffer from sleep paralysis, which causes me to wake up before my brain shuts off the "you can't move so you don't act out your dreams and hurt yourself" switch. During an episode I can see my environment clearly but I can't move and I experience incredibly vivid haunting hallucinations. When the paralysis ends the "spirits" disappear. This is a documented phenomenon that happens to a lot of people. In my desire to understand what was happening to me I came up with an explanation that sounded good but was ultimately wrong. Ever since I learned the truth I don't experience fear during an episode. I also don't have them at all if I don't sleep on my back.

But I could tell someone who is not familiar with sleep paralysis about my experiences while leaving out the explanation and they very well might believe me even though there'd be absolutely no reason to. Nowadays it would be lying to do that, but when I was younger I simply would have been incorrect in my assumption. It would have not been any attempt to deceive, just simply poor understanding with a baseless attempt to fill in the blanks.
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Posted 6/27/14

minatothegreatjiraiya wrote:

Of course, no science is ever a waste of time. But, what I'm saying is, those who work on other things aren't given as much standing as those who do work with string theory. It's a lot easier to get places if you work with string theory.


I don't know that that's true. Are theorists who work on other proposed theories having difficulty getting university positions or funds? It probably makes it easier to be a media darling (Michio Kaku, Lisa Randall, Brian Greene) if you're a string theorist because it's a sexy idea, but then again there's Lawrence Krauss, who is quite the media darling while considering it to be a failed theory. So I don't know.
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Posted 6/27/14

themeliorist wrote:


minatothegreatjiraiya wrote:

Of course, no science is ever a waste of time. But, what I'm saying is, those who work on other things aren't given as much standing as those who do work with string theory. It's a lot easier to get places if you work with string theory.


I don't know that that's true. Are theorists who work on other proposed theories having difficulty getting university positions or funds? It probably makes it easier to be a media darling (Michio Kaku, Lisa Randall, Brian Greene) if you're a string theorist because it's a sexy idea, but then again there's Lawrence Krauss, who is quite the media darling while considering it to be a failed theory. So I don't know.


Yes, they are. Twenty of twenty two tenured professors in particle physics who received PhD.s post-1981 made their reputation in string theory or related approaches, and 8 of 9 MacArthur Fellowships rewarded in Particle Physics since it's beginning had been to string theorists, as of 2007. Source is The Trouble With Physics by Lee Smolin, a previous promoter of String Theory.
But is Lawrence Krauss really in the media? I know he has quite the reputation on Youtube, but is he really popular on TV or on popular magazines?
Posted 6/27/14

themeliorist wrote:



Well, I get where you're coming from. It's just that I'm the type of person who has a sort of semi-balance between what's real and what's classified as not real. I know that most things aren't supernatural and what can be considered supernatural may not be, like your sleep paralysis story. At the same time, however, I truly believe in the supernatural even in the face of scientific evidence/explanation.

I also know that supernatural phenomena won't ever be scientifically accepted. My issue is that I don't like when people write others off. But at the same time I understand that not everyone believes or experiences what I do so I just let it be.

This conversation, therefore, was fun and engaging, but I'd like to stop it here. I appreciate what you had to say, but I'll continue to believe what I believe even though I don't think your intention was to persuade me or challenge my beliefs.

Thanks for the in-depth discussion and I hope I wasn't too hard to understand. Despite writing a lot, verbalizing and communicating what I'm trying to say can sometimes be confusing.
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Posted 6/27/14 , edited 6/27/14

minatothegreatjiraiya wrote:

Yes, they are. Twenty of twenty two tenured professors in particle physics who received PhD.s post-1981 made their reputation in string theory or related approaches, and 8 of 9 MacArthur Fellowships rewarded in Particle Physics since it's beginning had been to string theorists, as of 2007. Source is The Trouble With Physics by Lee Smolin, a previous promoter of String Theory.
But is Lawrence Krauss really in the media? I know he has quite the reputation on Youtube, but is he really popular on TV or on popular magazines?


Wow, that is quite unbalanced. Without knowing why it is like that I couldn't make any claims about whether that's a bad thing, but it superficially at least it doesn't look good.

Krauss has been on Real Time, The Colbert Report, and other shows. I don't think his presence has been substantially less than the other people I listed, with the exception of Michio Kaku. And I think Kaku gets on TV mostly because he's sort of a hilarious, crazy uncle who is really brilliant at one thing but spends most of his airtime making nutty claims about pretty much everything but his field of expertise. I find him really aggravating at times.


MeikoAkizukiMB wrote:

This conversation, therefore, was fun and engaging, but I'd like to stop it here. I appreciate what you had to say, but I'll continue to believe what I believe even though I don't think your intention was to persuade me or challenge my beliefs.

Thanks for the in-depth discussion and I hope I wasn't too hard to understand. Despite writing a lot, verbalizing and communicating what I'm trying to say can sometimes be confusing.


You're right, I wasn't trying to change your beliefs at all, just trying to make sure you realize that if someone doesn't believe you it's not necessarily because they're passing judgement on you as a person. The fact that I can't accept your claim does not mean I am therefore making the assumption that you're a liar, or that you're delusional or stupid. It's totally reasonable to respond to your story with skepticism, but not with hostility.

I had no difficulty understanding you.
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Posted 6/27/14
What I think after read your post is: Keep calm bro, mkr will be reality soon
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Posted 6/27/14
Magic is simply logic that science hasn't found an answer to yet.
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Posted 6/28/14

themeliorist wrote:

Wow, that is quite unbalanced. Without knowing why it is like that I couldn't make any claims about whether that's a bad thing, but it superficially at least it doesn't look good.

Krauss has been on Real Time, The Colbert Report, and other shows. I don't think his presence has been substantially less than the other people I listed, with the exception of Michio Kaku. And I think Kaku gets on TV mostly because he's sort of a hilarious, crazy uncle who is really brilliant at one thing but spends most of his airtime making nutty claims about pretty much everything but his field of expertise. I find him really aggravating at times.



Didn't know that about Krauss. Then again, I seldom pay attention to media excursions. But, from what I've seen of Kaku, he's seen to be some sort of go-to guy for everything from pills increasing cognitive ability to aliens invading Earth. You really hit the nail on the head with that description, though, I must say.
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Posted 6/28/14 , edited 6/28/14

MeikoAkizukiMB wrote:

I believe that some things that occur in the world can't be explained by physical science and that shouldn't be a bad thing. Why can't things that can't be explained by science be true? By what or by who gets to determine that?


I understand exactly what you are saying, and certainly on my dad's side of the family there are few stories about supernatural events. The first one was when my grandad touched a sword in an antique shop (my dad told me how this was exactly, he was there at the time). When he held it he felt a burning sensation in his hands and could see and name everything about the soldier it belonged to, but he had to drop it because of the burning. It may sound strange, but when everyone else touched has hands the were apparently hot.

Another I guess you could say in reference to 'guardian angels' is my dad's situation - he's had a few close runs to say the least. Two times were at stations where he decided that the train was too busy to ride on, so he waited for the next one. When the train got further down the tunnel a bomb was detonated on-board (and this happened to him twice, and I know this is true). Another was when he was driving down the motorway and a car full of young kids pulled up along side him. He said he recalled seeing a flash and then the glass broke (but not shattered). When he took it to Autoglass (car glass repair company), this guy who had worked in glass for 20 years said it was no doubt damage caused by a bullet - after that he had to decline police protection. Finally, just this month he was on his motorbike on a quiet, open country road where he could have completely hammered on his accelerator and had an epic time, but he said he had a feeling the he should instead of speeding up maintain a reasonably mundane speed. A few 100 metres down the road, a deer jumped out in front of the bike and stood there and stared at him (he also added it winked to make the story more 'supernatural', but I've always questioned that part). He would have hit it and been in a bad injury if he had gone too fast. I might understand things like this happening once, but this is quite a few times. Though of course I'm extremely glad he's still safe!
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Posted 6/28/14
I don't think it is. i do believe in karma, which is close enough.
Posted 6/28/14

AnimeIzPro wrote:



Wow, your stories of your dad remind me of what happened to my mom. The car we had was really dangerous. The bottom was rusted out and the gas tank was lopsided or hooked up wrong and it would cause the hand meter on the gas to go down to E when the car came to a stop or while turning, thus causing the car to cut off randomly. It also leaked. And to make matters worse the brakes weren't working properly.

I think we had that car for 2 years until a few months ago. My mom, as a result, had near death experiences, although not as dangerous as your dad's--thank God he's all right!

One time she said she driving on the high way when the car suddenly cut off. A truck was behind her but she was somehow able to turn her hazards on and the truck was able to swerve out the way at the last second. One time when I was with her she felt the brakes not give and she had to veer into the turn lane, and luckily the light was green and we avoided an accident. And the last and final time something almost bad happened to her I don't remember word-for-word but she told me that "something" told her to go out that day. It was on her day off (she works crazy hours) and she was almost home when this happened. The wheel was turning on it's own. Luckily a cop helped her out.

These weren't exactly supernatural, but my mom told me a story about how her mom almost died while they were in the car when she was little. I don't remember how the story went but an accident happened and my grandma hit her head hard against the dashboard, I think while protecting my mom. My mom said that when they were in the hospital she knew she was gone. But she kept telling her mom that she had to use the bathroom, then all of a sudden my grandma "woke up" and told the hospital people to take my mom to the bathroom.

My mom said the hospital staff were of course looking at her weird. Who just comes back from the dead like that?

Ever since, my mom said that she felt connected to my grandma. There was a time when she got off the phone with her and told me that the only reason she called her was because she had a headache. Turned out my grandma was having a headache too.

Some weird stuff, isn't it? My mom even said after my grandma's death that she occasionally saw her sitting on our couches (which were hers; we took in a lot of her stuff when we were cleaning her apartment). She said she stopped seeing her after awhile.

I just hope that my grandma's next life is a little better. If you know anything about astrology, my grandma had a Scorpio moon which to me explains everything from her hard upbringing and how her own family treated her to all her health problems.

Sorry for going on a tangent! I tend to do that. By the way I think your granddad's power is called psychometry or clairsentience. A person can gain the history of an object by touching or looking at it.

But I have to ask, do you have any "psychic" powers or are highly intuitive? My mom is very much an intuitive person (which your dad could be too; he seems very similar to my mom, at least in terms of life-altering events happening to them) which I admire because I think my intuition is slightly "above average" but since I constantly doubt myself and need "rational" backing I tend to distrust it. Being indecisive doesn't help either.
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