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Post Reply God vs. science
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Posted 2/6/08 , edited 4/18/08
Faeleia, sorry. Your right.

God formed this earth from nothing. He made complex organisms through his power alone.

You ask for evolution Stickmania. Ok, I'll do that, but while I do that, I'll show how God exists and the Bible is true, acording to archaeology. There are no intermediate links inbetween the evolution of one animal to another. Not one example exists. The Archaeoptrix is not a transition link. It was an original species made by God in the bird family.

In the Bible, there was a massive flood that hit the earth. There are countless examples of fish bones being excavated on top of mountains well away from the sea. There is also a layer of earth that shows there was once a massive flood throughout the earth. Noah built an arc to save his family and the animals of the earth. There is evidence that points to Mount Ararat being the location of where he landed. The mountain is fenced off and well guarded. Stories circulate about how people have seen the arc. There is also the site of the Tower of Babel, where God confused the tongues of man. There are also other sites where people in the middle east have fenced off, like Mt. Sinai where Moses recieve the ten commandments and where Israel made the golden calf. There are carvings just inside the fence on a rock which show pictures of a golden calf. The actual mountain location is not Sinai, but at another mountain where arabs have fenced off. On Sinai, there is a section of blackened rock, where the 10 commandments were formed!

Evolution supposedly has a base that less complex organisms evolve into more complex organisms. The truth is God made each animal unique acording to their kind. People can look at a modern bacteria. The flagellum, a part of the bacteria, rotates at a massive speed, propelling it along. The flagellum is extremely small, but it is also extremely complex. It has the 'parts' similar to a motor, made by humans. God uses his perfect design in bacteria so they could move around to escape predators and capture prey. Mutations are the fundamental form of change in Evolution, which 'causes animals to gain the parts needed to survive in an ever changing environment.' Mutation often results in negative changes which hinders an animal's ability to survive. Mutations occur in small amounts with extremely little change. Even in millions of years of mutation, an animal race like monkeys would never gain the ability to swim. God made them so they could climb, swing and hold bananas instead.

There are dozens of sites where God showed his power. Where Sodom and Gomorah are supposed to be, there is nothing but a desert and infertile land. However, in that desert, there are signs that people once lived there. The Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire from heaven. What's really cool about the site is there is white ash just below the surface, a lot of white ash!

Inside humans, there are blood cells. They are designed to hold oxygen. I saw a video once in class on the blood cells. The blood cells are the perfect shape to hold oxygen. If the blood cells were off in proper size and shape, they could not hold the oxygen as well as they do. Mutation is random, and it would not produce such a well designed structure. Only one thing could have formed such perfect structures, God!

The New Testament gives locations of where Jesus and the apostles traveled. These locations were buried, but now found. When Paul was shipwrecked on the island of Patmos, The Ship lay anchor nearby until it sunk. Where they lay anchor, two anchors currently reside. When a ship at that time lay anchor, they would use both anchors they had, so there is nothing odd about finding two anchors at that location.

Some people think God and Science do not fit together, but I think they do. God makes all things, and science shows the awesomeness of God's design, the perfection of the system he made.
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Posted 2/6/08 , edited 4/18/08
Ah, Didn't know that. Thanks for telling me this. Wait, I'm not Catholic. So I don't really care if the Vatican claims evolution is true. I'm a Christian and don't claim to any denomination. My belief is in God alone, not the pope. He will be my rearguard and him alone.
Posted 2/7/08 , edited 4/18/08

clearwateralchemist wrote:

Faeleia, sorry. Your right.

God formed this earth from nothing. He made complex organisms through his power alone.

You ask for evolution Stickmania. Ok, I'll do that, but while I do that, I'll show how God exists and the Bible is true, acording to archaeology. There are no intermediate links inbetween the evolution of one animal to another. Not one example exists. The Archaeoptrix is not a transition link. It was an original species made by God in the bird family.

In the Bible, there was a massive flood that hit the earth. There are countless examples of fish bones being excavated on top of mountains well away from the sea. There is also a layer of earth that shows there was once a massive flood throughout the earth. Noah built an arc to save his family and the animals of the earth. There is evidence that points to Mount Ararat being the location of where he landed. The mountain is fenced off and well guarded. Stories circulate about how people have seen the arc. There is also the site of the Tower of Babel, where God confused the tongues of man. There are also other sites where people in the middle east have fenced off, like Mt. Sinai where Moses recieve the ten commandments and where Israel made the golden calf. There are carvings just inside the fence on a rock which show pictures of a golden calf. The actual mountain location is not Sinai, but at another mountain where arabs have fenced off. On Sinai, there is a section of blackened rock, where the 10 commandments were formed!

Evolution supposedly has a base that less complex organisms evolve into more complex organisms. The truth is God made each animal unique acording to their kind. People can look at a modern bacteria. The flagellum, a part of the bacteria, rotates at a massive speed, propelling it along. The flagellum is extremely small, but it is also extremely complex. It has the 'parts' similar to a motor, made by humans. God uses his perfect design in bacteria so they could move around to escape predators and capture prey. Mutations are the fundamental form of change in Evolution, which 'causes animals to gain the parts needed to survive in an ever changing environment.' Mutation often results in negative changes which hinders an animal's ability to survive. Mutations occur in small amounts with extremely little change. Even in millions of years of mutation, an animal race like monkeys would never gain the ability to swim. God made them so they could climb, swing and hold bananas instead.

There are dozens of sites where God showed his power. Where Sodom and Gomorah are supposed to be, there is nothing but a desert and infertile land. However, in that desert, there are signs that people once lived there. The Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire from heaven. What's really cool about the site is there is white ash just below the surface, a lot of white ash!

Inside humans, there are blood cells. They are designed to hold oxygen. I saw a video once in class on the blood cells. The blood cells are the perfect shape to hold oxygen. If the blood cells were off in proper size and shape, they could not hold the oxygen as well as they do. Mutation is random, and it would not produce such a well designed structure. Only one thing could have formed such perfect structures, God!

The New Testament gives locations of where Jesus and the apostles traveled. These locations were buried, but now found. When Paul was shipwrecked on the island of Patmos, The Ship lay anchor nearby until it sunk. Where they lay anchor, two anchors currently reside. When a ship at that time lay anchor, they would use both anchors they had, so there is nothing odd about finding two anchors at that location.

Some people think God and Science do not fit together, but I think they do. God makes all things, and science shows the awesomeness of God's design, the perfection of the system he made.


The perfection? Slight overstatement there because perfection would = no creature is ever unhappy. And did you ignore the part in your lesson on blood where most mutations are not beneficial and lead to the speedy death of the creature hence they can't reproduce? Even though mutations are random only beneficial mutations ever survive, so its not suprising that over millions of years we get more and more complex and specialised now is it. Hell scientists have witnessed evolution in black and white moths and exactly how it works, millions of years is plenty of time let me tell you. Ignoring whats in front of your eyes in favor of what a book and others who are infatuated by that book tell you is to be frank stupid. Evolution happened, and is still happening. Oh and there is not evidence of a flood the world over, just around certain places and scientists have already proved that this could have been caused by a natural phenomenon, namely a tsunami. Oh and deserts grow and shrink and change location, and that is beyond doubt as we have seen it happening (it takes decades not centuries) so again it is not a miricle that there is evidence of human habitation where it is now desert. In short just because the bible mentions real world places it does not automatically mean that the events that happened at those places were anything more than fiction as you seem to suggest.
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Posted 2/7/08 , edited 4/18/08
The flood did happen. I know a place in the United States in Colorado where you can excavate fish fossils. There's absolutely no way a Tsunami would reach the earth. Yes, I know about the possiblities of mega-Tsunamis, but they won't reach the center of the US, especially in the massive mountain range. Throughout the world, there is a layer in the earth that shows sign of a massive flood. That layer of earth has been found several times in several locations. There was a flood, and God caused it!!

God created the world, and he designed it perfectly. Humans were created in Genesis of the Bible. It was good, until man disobeyed God. He cursed the earth because of it. Weeds, childbirth pain, banishment from the Garden of Eden were all punishments dealt by God to us for disobeying him. You're right, all creatures feel pain. However, it is because humans disobeyed God that things are not as Good as they once were.


According to evolution, mutations are supposed to be the mechanism by which species evolve new traits and become more complex. However, genetics has shown that mutations are almost always harmful and always destroy information rather than creating it. information has to come from an intelligent being, and so natural mutations cannot create genetic information that is not already in the genetic code. Individual members of a species exhibit various ranges of their traits, and traits can even be bred to extremes, as we have done with many different varieties of dogs, but all dogs are still dogs and still produce dogs, and they all (except for possible inconvenient size differences) can interbreed. And if breeders attempt to breed the most extreme value of a trait, they usually find a genetic limit on how far they can take it. A dog will not grow as large as an elephant even if breeders keep breeding the largest dogs, for example.


I found this on http://www.helium.com/tm/97173/introductionif-evolutionist-believe-natural

God was the intelligent being mentioned above. Mutations cannot cause an aligator to grow feathers, wings and fly. Monkeys cannot gain gills, nor would they be able to use them because they would not know how. God made all creatures the way they were meant to be. Fish have Gills, birds have feathers, and alligators have scales. Black moths became white for a reason. I don't know that reason, but it is within their genetic limits to change their color through a positive mutation.

I present you with a question. before that, I'm automatically assuming that you don't believe God exists. If I am wrong, I withdraw my question. Let us say your right, which you're not, that there is no God. What is the point of continuing on? There is no real hope for the future, no one to be acountable with. Where is the hope for a better future? Once we are dead, there's nothing left without God.

God gives me hope that there is a future out there, that I'll spend every day for all eternity resting in his comfort. The Bible says, "Always be prepared to give the reason for the hope that you have, but do this with gentleness and respect." Everytime I see a storm, or the power of nature, I see God in it all. He gives me hope that all things are in his hands. I hope you find hope in God as well.
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Posted 2/7/08 , edited 4/18/08

clearwateralchemist wrote:

Ah, Didn't know that. Thanks for telling me this. Wait, I'm not Catholic. So I don't really care if the Vatican claims evolution is true. I'm a Christian and don't claim to any denomination. My belief is in God alone, not the pope. He will be my rearguard and him alone.


I think he was pointing out that even religious authorities admit that it is true since in a scientific discussion it will win every single time. Please I urge you to use the link he gave you as you clearly understand evolution about as much as that other poster understood the big bang.
Posted 2/7/08 , edited 4/18/08

clearwateralchemist wrote:

The flood did happen. I know a place in the United States in Colorado where you can excavate fish fossils. There's absolutely no way a Tsunami would reach the earth. Yes, I know about the possiblities of mega-Tsunamis, but they won't reach the center of the US, especially in the massive mountain range. Throughout the world, there is a layer in the earth that shows sign of a massive flood. That layer of earth has been found several times in several locations. There was a flood, and God caused it!!

God created the world, and he designed it perfectly. Humans were created in Genesis of the Bible. It was good, until man disobeyed God. He cursed the earth because of it. Weeds, childbirth pain, banishment from the Garden of Eden were all punishments dealt by God to us for disobeying him. You're right, all creatures feel pain. However, it is because humans disobeyed God that things are not as Good as they once were.


According to evolution, mutations are supposed to be the mechanism by which species evolve new traits and become more complex. However, genetics has shown that mutations are almost always harmful and always destroy information rather than creating it. information has to come from an intelligent being, and so natural mutations cannot create genetic information that is not already in the genetic code. Individual members of a species exhibit various ranges of their traits, and traits can even be bred to extremes, as we have done with many different varieties of dogs, but all dogs are still dogs and still produce dogs, and they all (except for possible inconvenient size differences) can interbreed. And if breeders attempt to breed the most extreme value of a trait, they usually find a genetic limit on how far they can take it. A dog will not grow as large as an elephant even if breeders keep breeding the largest dogs, for example.


I found this on http://www.helium.com/tm/97173/introductionif-evolutionist-believe-natural

God was the intelligent being mentioned above. Mutations cannot cause an aligator to grow feathers, wings and fly. Monkeys cannot gain gills, nor would they be able to use them because they would not know how. God made all creatures the way they were meant to be. Fish have Gills, birds have feathers, and alligators have scales. Black moths became white for a reason. I don't know that reason, but it is within their genetic limits to change their color through a positive mutation.

I present you with a question. before that, I'm automatically assuming that you don't believe God exists. If I am wrong, I withdraw my question. Let us say your right, which you're not, that there is no God. What is the point of continuing on? There is no real hope for the future, no one to be acountable with. Where is the hope for a better future? Once we are dead, there's nothing left without God.

God gives me hope that there is a future out there, that I'll spend every day for all eternity resting in his comfort. The Bible says, "Always be prepared to give the reason for the hope that you have, but do this with gentleness and respect." Everytime I see a storm, or the power of nature, I see God in it all. He gives me hope that all things are in his hands. I hope you find hope in God as well.


You do of course know how continents and mountains are formed? You do know that the coastline MOVES with the passing of time? You do know that where Colorado is now used to under the sea? Anyway you cannot say that I am wrong about God, because there is FAR more evidence to suggest that there is no God than to suggest that there is. Its you who are standing on a feeble argument. Oh and even if I assume that there is a higher being up there, what makes you think that YOU are right about what it is? What makes you right and the Jews, Muslims, Hindus and all the other thousands of religions there have been over the centuries wrong? What gives you the right to say it is your God that is up there, and NOT say the Muslim one? Because surely you will have logical reasons for discrediting their beliefs completely and your view on them will co-incide with mine right? That they are essentially talking crap? That their God does not exist? What makes you right and them wrong? What has Christianity got that they don't? I'll tell you. Nothing. They are all just as unlikely as each other. That means that by sheer probability you are incredibly, overwhelmingly likely to be completely wrong in your beliefs. You do realise this, right? Of course I still want to hear your exact reasons why you do not believe in the Muslim faith (as an example to me, if you went through them all we would be here for years) and why their god does not exist and why yours does.
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Posted 2/7/08 , edited 4/18/08
Mountains were formed from the massive flood caused by God during the time of Noah. Erosion caused the mountains to be formed. Oh, I know about plate tectonics and how they formed some mountains and volcanoes, but they could not have formed the Rocky mountains. They do not sit on the edge of a plate. mountains formed from such activity are on the California and New England coastline (New York, Jersey, etc.). I agree plate tectonics form mountains on the edge of plates, such as those mentioned in states above.

Oh, there's plenty of evidence to show there is God. Look around you. Look to the stars in the sky, the bright sun, the trees, animals, bacteria, it's all around. Such complexity in all things. Everything everywhere shows God's touch.

However, there is also sin and evil in the world. Even there, God shows us his grace all around us by saving us from evil and sin. all things happen for the Good of mankind. There is also sadness in the world. People die, and we're sad. Bad things happen to Good people, but what happens must happen and there can be no other way. I must go to school and classes, there is no getting around this fact, even though I don't want to do it.

This topic is not arguing the Christian God vs. the Muslim god. That is another topic. I'm not gonna argue that one with you. I said,

"Let us say your right, which you're not, that there is no God. What is the point of continuing on? There is no real hope for the future, no one to be acountable with. Where is the hope for a better future?."


What point is there if there isn't a God? Where is the hope for a better future, or even any future?" There is no hope and there is no point. Without God, we are accidents, not acountable to anyone.

You're leading the direction away from Science vs. God. If you will permit me another question, then why are you so angry with Christians, why do you say such mean things to them? I know some Christians are hypocritical, but don't judge all Christians by those people. Those who truely follow God would not say such mean things about you. I like debating Science and God with you.
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Posted 2/7/08 , edited 4/18/08
Because their hearts know not love for others. You can't expect people who do not know the love from our father to reflect it. Their love comes from the world, and is only given selectively, or not at all. They probably do not realise how much they've caused grief to the people around them and not care.

Out of the abundance of the hearts the mouth speaks. Jesus is beckoning, beckoning. He's near, but people don't perceive him to be around. There's longsuffering for his children today because we have to get to the narrow gate, which is hard and against the flow. The whisper is soft, but there lies life. It is hard to understand if you have not first died, and don the new self that God gives to all who have been truly saved. If they choose to go through the large gate which leads to death, it is not a choice that we can force them otherwise.

Our hands are always stretched out. If you choose to jump down first, then I feel sad, but it's not something we control.

Threads are for all to answer, not just Christian representative VS atheist representative.
Posted 2/7/08 , edited 4/18/08

clearwateralchemist wrote:

Mountains were formed from the massive flood caused by God during the time of Noah. Erosion caused the mountains to be formed. Oh, I know about plate tectonics and how they formed some mountains and volcanoes, but they could not have formed the Rocky mountains. They do not sit on the edge of a plate. mountains formed from such activity are on the California and New England coastline (New York, Jersey, etc.). I agree plate tectonics form mountains on the edge of plates, such as those mentioned in states above.

Oh, there's plenty of evidence to show there is God. Look around you. Look to the stars in the sky, the bright sun, the trees, animals, bacteria, it's all around. Such complexity in all things. Everything everywhere shows God's touch.

However, there is also sin and evil in the world. Even there, God shows us his grace all around us by saving us from evil and sin. all things happen for the Good of mankind. There is also sadness in the world. People die, and we're sad. Bad things happen to Good people, but what happens must happen and there can be no other way. I must go to school and classes, there is no getting around this fact, even though I don't want to do it.

This topic is not arguing the Christian God vs. the Muslim god. That is another topic. I'm not gonna argue that one with you. I said,

"Let us say your right, which you're not, that there is no God. What is the point of continuing on? There is no real hope for the future, no one to be acountable with. Where is the hope for a better future?."


What point is there if there isn't a God? Where is the hope for a better future, or even any future?" There is no hope and there is no point. Without God, we are accidents, not acountable to anyone.

You're leading the direction away from Science vs. God. If you will permit me another question, then why are you so angry with Christians, why do you say such mean things to them? I know some Christians are hypocritical, but don't judge all Christians by those people. Those who truely follow God would not say such mean things about you. I like debating Science and God with you.


Once again you show your ignorance about how the world works it seems. This time it seems you didn't study hard enough in geography class. The plate boundaries ARE NOT FIXED. Sometimes plates split into two, sometimes two plates fuse together. This is rare, but over millions of years it has happened many times. Look it up if you don't believe me. No flood ever created a mountain range you idiot, the fact that you even tried to suggest it shows your utter stupidity. There used to be a plate boundary where the rockies are now. The mountains are the mark it left. Your IQ must really be subnormal for you to keep coming out with this bullshit I'm afraid (unless of course you are about 10 years old, in which case ignorance is understandable). Oh and while I do generally speaking despise religions that are obviously untrue at the moment I am directing all my frustration at you personally for continuing to bullshit about a subject it was clear you didn't understand from your first post. If you had taken the time to research it after I had proven you wrong once I would have been fine with it, but your refusal to accept the fact that your knowledge is insufficient to properly debate this annoys the hell out of me. And to answer one of your other questions life is probably pointless. Learn to accept the possibility that your life is so insignificant that it doesn't matter that you were even born.
Also the fact that the world exists is not evidence of a God when there are so many other ways it could have come into being.
And yes that was getting off topic with the Muslim thing. I think I will PM you about it instead.
Posted 2/7/08 , edited 4/18/08

Faeleia wrote:

Do you all need a locked thread to THINK BEFORE YOU ARGUE?

Hey! This is about God and science, it's not about Science and God. Where is the priority? It's not disproving Science, it's not disproving God. Oh for goodness sake, can't you even see where this is going? This is looking just like another secular thread outside, bringing up another God thread for the purposes to tear apart.

Christians, where is your understanding? Why have you joined ranks and started quarreling? These people argue because they have a case to. Yours is finished and done. All you have to do is to rest in His peace. Did God not say Seek first his Kingdom? Why are you seeking his creation? You mighty well know that going on is probably not going to go anywhere unless you use the wisdom God has given you.

Atheists have laid traps upon traps and there you go running after them. Do you trust their knowledge more than God's? Do you trust in your own understanding more than God's? Do you seek reprove from non-belivers more than God's? By stepping down to join with the blind, how can you guide them?

I'll start deleting posts if flaming you people just want to flame. I respect God, therefore I will make sure his place of worship is kept in order.


Um please note they are not 'traps' as you call them they are FACTS. Telling others to avoid the truth and remain in ignorance is perhaps unfair of you I think. Well I suppose the truth hurts, maybe you are just being a good Christian and trying to save them from it. And they argue because they have got something to try to prove, as there is no proof that God exists. Perhaps they are searching for some (in vein admittedly)
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Posted 2/7/08 , edited 4/18/08
That's one matter of opinion, on how low my IQ is. I may not have taken very many geography courses in my life, but I doubt you have either. As for facts, The person on the previous page said it best. Facts change. People change. What the world finds true today may be wrong tomorrow. Personally, I think that God formed the mountains with his hands. I just gave an idea as to how it 'could' have happened.

It is interesting how you've let the points on the best shape of a blood cell, transition links and mutations die. You point out a single flaw in my explanation when your explanation has many more flaws.

Alright, let's calm down before we invite the Mod to either ban us or stop the debate.

Probability is against evolution as well. It is far more likely for God to have made the earth than for evolution to have happened. The eye will not work without being fully developed. If there was one single flaw it would not work. How does an animal survive for the millions of years it takes to evolve an eye? What are the chances it will ever be evolved? The answer, non-existant especially while all animals were trying to evolve the eye as well. Mutations are completely random. There is a zero percent chance that a perfect human eye would be made through evolution, out of the countless mutations that could possibly occur, the overwhelming majority of them detramental. It was designed, by God. Look at all complex organisms. If they have a single flaw, they won't work properly, if they would work at all. God designed fully functioning systems for each creature to use properly.

If anyone wants to jump in, for either side, that would be fine.
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Posted 2/7/08 , edited 4/18/08
I have to go with the Big Bang! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE WORLD TO BE CREATED WITH IN 7 DAYS!!!!! SURE THE BIBLE SAYS SO BUT SCIENCE PROVES MORE THAN THAT! PANGEA PROVES THAT THE WORLD IS OLDER AND SO DOES RODINA (LAND BE FORE PANGEA I DONNO IF I SPELLED IT RIGHT)!
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Posted 2/8/08 , edited 4/18/08
Wah. That onslaught of Caps has damaged my eyes. If you believe in the Bible, believe it wholeheartedly, for God says that those are his words. Can't believe half-half, then is God split into half as well? That's why he's a faith God. Not a logic god.
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Posted 2/8/08 , edited 4/18/08
Might be a good idea to check that site out. If not you might not be able to discuss on level ground.
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