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Proving/Disproving Religion
Posted 8/7/14
In this topic, we discuss religion as true or false through evidence.
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Posted 8/7/14
Doubt either will be 100% proved until we have 100% of the facts needed to prove one.
Posted 8/7/14 , edited 8/7/14

Stay_Night wrote:

Doubt either will be 100% proved until we have 100% of the facts needed to prove one.


And it is funny how religious writ is taken as truth when there is no evidence aside from "eye witnesses" claiming to have seen their deities. Granted we may take things on good authority. Believing as we are told else we are in opposition to belief systems. Conforming through faith to spiritual guidance. Fear of punishment post-mortem from vengeful gods and/or punishment from society leading to acceptance of religious indoctrination.

Difference is perceived with faith believing without evidence and reasoning seeking evidence. The cycle continues.
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Posted 8/7/14
To be completely honest. I dont see what peoples obsession with disproving religion is.

I myself, am non religious, while i believe in unlimited possibilities, i don't consider myself to be someone who believes in religion, as i find it is usually used as a way to divide people and categorize them.

i really get annoyed however, when you have extremely arrogant atheists, who believe it is their so called "mission" in life, to tell everyone how stupid they are, for holding their own beliefs. I would rather someone live their life with the hope of "heaven" than live their life knowing they will simply cease to exist.

I find these threads slightly pointless in the sense, that there is no proof that can disprove the existence of a "god" and their is no proof to prove the existence of "god". Humans like to think they know everything, and in fact, we don't. We know so very little when it comes to the universe as a whole. We have theories, but most of those are just hypothetical guesses as to what could have happened, or what may happen.

There are no facts to say, a higher power doesn't exist, just like there are no facts to prove that it exists.

While i believe alot of religions are man made creations used to enslave people to a specific mentality and train of thought, i believe that the essence of a "higher power" could be a possibility. Religions themselves are often twisted beyond belief. Men have always tried to solve the unsolvable through the use of a mythical anomaly or answer.

However, i also enjoy the fact that, it is something that can not be proven, or disproved. It adds a bit of mystery to my everyday life.
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Posted 8/7/14 , edited 8/7/14
Speaking as far as the abrahamic religions go (judaism, christianity and islam), there are lots of internal contradictions, scientific inaccuracies and paradoxes. Those are things that disprove those religions. And that is by the standard of those religions themselves. They claim that their scriptures are the words of God -- that they are infallible -- which means that if you can find just one single flaw, the whole notion of it being infallable and being the inspiration of an all-knowing and honest entity falls apart.
And with the numerous things wrong with it, among the absence of any sort of evidence towards a creator, I find the reasons to believe in those religions to be non-existent.

Now, that doesn't disprove the existence of some sort of Godlike being. But it DOES disprove the abrahamic religions.




AzazelOfNexium wrote:
I would rather someone live their life with the hope of "heaven" than live their life knowing they will simply cease to exist.


So would I. Believing that my conciousness would continue on after my body was deceased is something that I would want more than anything else.
But what I would want and what is actually true are not necessarily compatible. And it would be foolish to convince oneself otherwise.



AzazelOfNexium
While i believe alot of religions are man made creations used to enslave people to a specific mentality and train of thought, i believe that the essence of a "higher power" could be a possibility. Religions themselves are often twisted beyond belief. Men have always tried to solve the unsolvable through the use of a mythical anomaly or answer.

However, i also enjoy the fact that, it is something that can not be proven, or disproved. It adds a bit of mystery to my everyday life.


Yeah, well too bad that mystery comes at the price of needless suffering and even death for countless of innocent people as well...
Too bad that it slows down the collective progress of mankind...
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Posted 8/7/14

AzazelOfNexium wrote:
i really get annoyed however, when you have extremely arrogant atheists, who believe it is their so called "mission" in life, to tell everyone how stupid they are, for holding their own beliefs. I would rather someone live their life with the hope of "heaven" than live their life knowing they will simply cease to exist.


I believe the same thing applies to those who are highly religious, who believe it's their "mission" to spread the word about god. In any case both sides are at fault, the difference being that I'd prefer atheists who have evidence behind topics such as evolution or the big bang, rather than religious nuts who shove religion down peoples throats and deem some topics true, without absolute evidence.


AzazelOfNexium wrote:
Humans like to think they know everything, and in fact, we don't. We know so very little when it comes to the universe as a whole. We have theories, but most of those are just hypothetical guesses as to what could have happened, or what may happen.


Very true on the matter on we don't know everything, but the theories that we have do give us insight on these sort of things. I'd have disagree with you on theories mainly being "hypothetical guesses" Theories are backed up far more than hypothesis's, with evidence, and multiple findings on a theory, which is widely accepted to be true.
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Posted 8/7/14

AzazelOfNexium wrote:

To be completely honest. I dont see what peoples obsession with disproving religion is.

I myself, am non religious, while i believe in unlimited possibilities, i don't consider myself to be someone who believes in religion, as i find it is usually used as a way to divide people and categorize them.

i really get annoyed however, when you have extremely arrogant atheists, who believe it is their so called "mission" in life, to tell everyone how stupid they are, for holding their own beliefs. I would rather someone live their life with the hope of "heaven" than live their life knowing they will simply cease to exist.

I find these threads slightly pointless in the sense, that there is no proof that can disprove the existence of a "god" and their is no proof to prove the existence of "god". Humans like to think they know everything, and in fact, we don't. We know so very little when it comes to the universe as a whole. We have theories, but most of those are just hypothetical guesses as to what could have happened, or what may happen.

There are no facts to say, a higher power doesn't exist, just like there are no facts to prove that it exists.

While i believe alot of religions are man made creations used to enslave people to a specific mentality and train of thought, i believe that the essence of a "higher power" could be a possibility. Religions themselves are often twisted beyond belief. Men have always tried to solve the unsolvable through the use of a mythical anomaly or answer.

However, i also enjoy the fact that, it is something that can not be proven, or disproved. It adds a bit of mystery to my everyday life.


I found your post hypocritical. I don't think anyone is trying to disprove ''religion,'' as it's blatantly obvious religion exists. Now, the beliefs associated with religion is up for debate.


''i really get annoyed however, when you have extremely arrogant atheists, who believe it is their so called "mission" in life, to tell everyone how stupid they are, for holding their own beliefs. I would rather someone live their life with the hope of "heaven" than live their life knowing they will simply cease to exist.''

This, I'm saddened by. You are right, there are arrogance on both sides of the spectrum, but to generalize atheism itself as ''arrogant'' is just being dishonest. The problem with heaven is, there is no evidence. Will you then ask me to disprove it? Is the burden on me to disprove it? Or is the burden of proof on the person who claims it exists? I am an atheist of the tooth fairy as well, do I, or can I disprove it? Of course not. If you claim the tooth fairy exist, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

One thing you ought to please keep in the left hemisphere, is that atheism is simply just a lack of belief in a god, nothing more. Much like we are all atheists about the teapot in space, and the flying spaghetti monster.

Now it gets me wondering what you are. If you're ''non religious'' and from the sound of it, not an atheist. What are you? A deist?
Can you elaborate on this ''higher power?'' And why do you think it's a ''possibility?'' I don't think you're a deist, because you said it's a possibility. You claim you're not religious, but I don't buy it. What are you, bud?
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Posted 8/7/14
[




I have no idea what comment you read, but i for sure didn't "generalize atheism as arrogant". If you clearly read my comment, and the context it was in, it was referring to the atheists that make it their duty to go around and tell anyone who is religious that they are stupid and inferior, or sheep for believing in what they so choose to.

I believe in endless possibilities, i don't have the liberty of having complete knowledge of the universe. There were things 3000 years ago, that would have been fairy tales, but are now a reality. There may be things that we consider fairy tales now, but may become a reality in another 3000 years. Humans have not gone to the far reaches of the universe. I don't know what is held in deep space.

Anything is possible, until proven impossible. You obviously cant fly, and you obviously cant shoot fire balls out of your hands. We know that because its within our reach to know that. However, something that is an idea, an idea that is intangible, something without a physical manifestation cannot be proven or dis-proven, as its impossible study. If its not proven to be impossible, its a possibility, be it a very far fetched possibility. A possibility none the less. I am not religious as i rebuke the disgusting idea that is "organized religion" because as i previously stated, its only a way to categorize people and use them as sheep. I consider myself open minded. Until someone gives me scientific data that proves the non existence or existence of god. I will accept it as nothing more than a possibility.


(to lazy to quote other people). It seems people are mistaking the average religious person, for extremists. Being an extremists of anything is ridiculous. That applies to both religious and non religious people. Its not right for anyone to shove their beliefs down your throat,that applies to religious and non religious ranting.


Anyway. I'm not really into debates when it comes to religion, as everyone has their own opinions on it, and they should be allowed to do what ever they so wish, as long as it doesn't interfere with the lives of others.

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Posted 8/7/14 , edited 8/7/14

AzazelOfNexium
(to lazy to quote other people). It seems people are mistaking the average religious person, for extremists.


But we're not talking about religious people. We're talking about religion. As a whole. And its effects on society and the world at large.
Or at least I am...
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Posted 8/7/14

AzazelOfNexium wrote:

[




I have no idea what comment you read, but i for sure didn't "generalize atheism as arrogant". If you clearly read my comment, and the context it was in, it was referring to the atheists that make it their duty to go around and tell anyone who is religious that they are stupid and inferior, or sheep for believing in what they so choose to.

I believe in endless possibilities, i don't have the liberty of having complete knowledge of the universe. There were things 3000 years ago, that would have been fairy tales, but are now a reality. There may be things that we consider fairy tales now, but may become a reality in another 3000 years. Humans have not gone to the far reaches of the universe. I don't know what is held in deep space.

Anything is possible, until proven impossible. You obviously cant fly, and you obviously cant shoot fire balls out of your hands. We know that because its within our reach to know that. However, something that is an idea, an idea that is intangible, something without a physical manifestation cannot be proven or dis-proven, as its impossible study. If its not proven to be impossible, its a possibility, be it a very far fetched possibility. A possibility none the less. I am not religious as i rebuke the disgusting idea that is "organized religion" because as i previously stated, its only a way to categorize people and use them as sheep. I consider myself open minded. Until someone gives me scientific data that proves the non existence or existence of god. I will accept it as nothing more than a possibility.


(to lazy to quote other people). It seems people are mistaking the average religious person, for extremists. Being an extremists of anything is ridiculous. That applies to both religious and non religious people. Its not right for anyone to shove their beliefs down your throat,that applies to religious and non religious ranting.


Anyway. I'm not really into debates when it comes to religion, as everyone has their own opinions on it, and they should be allowed to do what ever they so wish, as long as it doesn't interfere with the lives of others.



"i really get annoyed however, when you have extremely arrogant atheists, who believe it is their so called "mission" in life, to tell everyone how stupid they are, for holding their own beliefs.''

Do you not know the very comment you write? That does not say ''some'' arrogant atheist, but ''arrogant atheists.'' And I love how you just carelessly throw ''their duty'' like that's what they do for a living. You remind me of PZ myers.

3000 years ago? Oh? Can you give a list? But you are correct about one thing, we've come far since thousands of years ago. Hell, even hundreds of years ago. Science is ever more piling on the evidence. Of course we don't know ''everything,'' but instead of using the God of the gaps, scientists actually try to work on the problems.

''Anything is possible, until proven impossible.''
That's not a serious argument, is it? You seem like a smart guy, so I'll let you see where the flaw in that is.
There is a fine line between being open minded, and ignorant. Quite a fine line, actually. Anything can be a ''possibility,'' in the most vague term possible. That's a false dichotomy. You cannot go around saying ''Leprechauns is a possibility, but there is absolutely no evidence for it, but I believe in it anyway! It could be out there man! Come to me with some hard data to disprove it!'' Is it your right to hold that belief? Sure it is. At the end, it's a belief.

Well then, I guess your last sentence sums it up. Excuse me, I just like a friendly discussion. Cheers!
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Posted 8/7/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


AzazelOfNexium
(to lazy to quote other people). It seems people are mistaking the average religious person, for extremists.


But we're not talking about religious people. We're talking about religion. As a whole. And its effects on society and the world at large.
Or at least I am...


Well then, since we're on that page. What do you think, bud? Has religion done more bad than good, or vise versa?
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Posted 8/7/14

Dirtfrog wrote:


Syndicaidramon wrote:


AzazelOfNexium
(to lazy to quote other people). It seems people are mistaking the average religious person, for extremists.


But we're not talking about religious people. We're talking about religion. As a whole. And its effects on society and the world at large.
Or at least I am...


Well then, since we're on that page. What do you think, bud? Has religion done more bad than good, or vise versa?


I believe there was a time in history where religion at large did more good than bad. In the sense that it did give people a sense of security in times of great scientific ignorance, and that it also drove a lot of scientists in the dark ages who wanted to figure out the workings of God's design.

That, however, is not the case anymore. When looking at the role religion plays in the world today and weigh up the good it does versus the bad, the good it doesn't even come CLOSE to making up for all the bad things it does.
Be it discrimination, violence or spreading lies of scientific ignorance -- it does so much harm. And for what? For the purpose of clinging to "explanations" that we've long since disproved? For the purpose of providing a false sense of security, which in many cases leaves people apathetic towards the effort of wanting to change the world for the better because they think God will just sort it out for us? For the purpose of appeasing a fairytale creature whose existence cannot be verified or even indicated?

No. Religion today does not do more good than bad. At large, all it does is keep us as a species chained to archaic prejudice, meaningless division and violence, and scientific ignorance -- holding us as a collective back from achieving the greatness we could potentially achieve.
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Posted 8/7/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


Dirtfrog wrote:


Syndicaidramon wrote:


AzazelOfNexium
(to lazy to quote other people). It seems people are mistaking the average religious person, for extremists.


But we're not talking about religious people. We're talking about religion. As a whole. And its effects on society and the world at large.
Or at least I am...


Well then, since we're on that page. What do you think, bud? Has religion done more bad than good, or vise versa?


I believe there was a time in history where religion at large did more good than bad. In the sense that it did give people a sense of security in times of great scientific ignorance, and that it also drove a lot of scientists in the dark ages who wanted to figure out the workings of God's design.

That, however, is not the case anymore. When looking at the role religion plays in the world today and weigh up the good it does versus the bad, the good it doesn't even come CLOSE to making up for all the bad things it does.
Be it discrimination, violence or spreading lies of scientific ignorance -- it does so much harm. And for what? For the purpose of clinging to "explanations" that we've long since disproved? For the purpose of providing a false sense of security, which in many cases leaves people apathetic towards the effort of wanting to change the world for the better because they think God will just sort it out for us? For the purpose of appeasing a fairytale creature whose existence cannot be verified or even indicated?

No. Religion today does not do more good than bad. At large, all it does is keep us as a species chained to archaic prejudice, meaningless division and violence, and scientific ignorance -- holding us as a collective back from achieving the greatness we could potentially achieve.


Well then, that's interesting. You pretty much just summed up my current stance on the matter. However, I would like to add that in today's society, chanting ''Allah'' seconds before blowing yourself up injuring/killing innocent people is a gross dent in human progression, and just adds to this absurdity. At least the Christian crusades are the thing of the past.
Posted 8/7/14

Dirtfrog wrote:


Syndicaidramon wrote:


Dirtfrog wrote:


Syndicaidramon wrote:


AzazelOfNexium
(to lazy to quote other people). It seems people are mistaking the average religious person, for extremists.


But we're not talking about religious people. We're talking about religion. As a whole. And its effects on society and the world at large.
Or at least I am...


Well then, since we're on that page. What do you think, bud? Has religion done more bad than good, or vise versa?


I believe there was a time in history where religion at large did more good than bad. In the sense that it did give people a sense of security in times of great scientific ignorance, and that it also drove a lot of scientists in the dark ages who wanted to figure out the workings of God's design.

That, however, is not the case anymore. When looking at the role religion plays in the world today and weigh up the good it does versus the bad, the good it doesn't even come CLOSE to making up for all the bad things it does.
Be it discrimination, violence or spreading lies of scientific ignorance -- it does so much harm. And for what? For the purpose of clinging to "explanations" that we've long since disproved? For the purpose of providing a false sense of security, which in many cases leaves people apathetic towards the effort of wanting to change the world for the better because they think God will just sort it out for us? For the purpose of appeasing a fairytale creature whose existence cannot be verified or even indicated?

No. Religion today does not do more good than bad. At large, all it does is keep us as a species chained to archaic prejudice, meaningless division and violence, and scientific ignorance -- holding us as a collective back from achieving the greatness we could potentially achieve.


Well then, that's interesting. You pretty much just summed up my current stance on the matter. However, I would like to add that in today's society, chanting ''Allah'' seconds before blowing yourself up injuring/killing innocent people is a gross dent in human progression, and just adds to this absurdity. At least the Christian crusades are the thing of the past.


Are they? What with the United States stomping around killing Arabs while totting their piety. The Crusades are still going, just in a different form, plastered with Uncle Sam and spreading democracy as a cover for religious warfare. Seems God despises either side, allowing his "children" to duke it out despite the overarching, nonsensical justification of combating terror while the other side denies it. The War on Terror is purely a religious war, because of who believes it to be and why, changing the initial impression.

God is inconceivable to scientific reasoning, which seeks the material makings of anything. The spiritual is beyond explanation and quantification, isn't material, and conceivable only to a god mind. With this, we see why spirituality is existent, just not as we mere mortals can see it, as we are limited to what our weak flesh can perform. Hence, explaining the unexplainable is impossible to our underpowered cognition. We've seen spirits and experienced contact with religious beings. Religion is true, but as to which is the most right, has yet to be discerned. With it being so sensitive an issue, people will wage war over it. Considering human nature, this is normal, acceptable, and encouraged. It has its place and is sacred.
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Posted 8/7/14
Proving/disproving religion - which one?

You approach this as a false dichotomy. But fact is, all religious people believe in just one religion (even if it is their personal version of a salad bar religion), rendering all other religions false. But no one asks Mormons or Yazidi to "prove" that Hinduism, deism or Orthodox Christianity are all false.

So this is not a yes/no question: instead, there are many competing religious views, and to convert a reasonable atheist, you also have to make the point why that one religion is better and more likely to be true than all the others.
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