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Proving/Disproving Religion
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Posted 8/7/14 , edited 8/7/14

AzazelOfNexium wrote:i really get annoyed however, when you have extremely arrogant atheists, who believe it is their so called "mission" in life, to tell everyone how stupid they are, for holding their own beliefs. I would rather someone live their life with the hope of "heaven" than live their life knowing they will simply cease to exist.


I think however that extremely arrogant atheists are extremely out-numbered by extremely arrogant and/or repressive religious fanatics, and the latter's influence on society and laws is incomparably stronger (even in the developed world, even in Europe). This may not have been true a few decades ago (Communism) but definitely today.

So even if I think that Richard Dawkins is too much focused on some forms of religion he has to confront often (the rigid Anglicanism of his childhood and clergymen detractors and the American-origin creationism of idiotic letter writers biologists have to deal with), I applaud him for at least standing up against the fanatics. And I'm more bothered that almost all of the non-fanatic religious people whose religious views I am more sympathetic towards don't feel like fighting the fanatics (not to prove Dawkins and arrogant atheists that they are different, but because fanatics are bad).


I find these threads slightly pointless in the sense, that there is no proof that can disprove the existence of a "god" and their is no proof to prove the existence of "god".


That is, you have agnostic views. I find it slightly arrogant, too. It is based on a simplistic notion of what "proof" is, and ignores that there are many competing notions of Gods and pantheons of gods. You can disprove some of them easier than others (in fact philosophical 19th century agnosticism ignorantly swept most of traditional and non-Western religions aside as a thing of the past and assumed that only more abstract forms of Western monotheism have to be considered seriously), and you have to disprove all but one of them to prove one.


Humans like to think they know everything, and in fact, we don't. We know so very little when it comes to the universe as a whole.


The thing is, from what I know of religions, the transcendent stuff in them doesn't make me think of greater mysteries of a Universe barely known to humans, but attempts by narrow-minded humans to understand the world in very human terms. Especially gods: we are social animals, our brains are best suited to understand other human minds, and we 'understand' everything better if we imagine a human mind behind it (just look at children's shows where animals and objects have human faces).

Sometimes the narrow human experience of the creators of a religion has grotesque consequences. For example, Islam has Ramadan: a month-long fast when you are only allowed to eat when the Sun is down. But what do you do when Ramadan is at the height of summer and you live north of the Arctic circle, where the Sun doesn't go down all day?

My point, in short, is that religions (at least the ones I know) seem to be more about the little humans knew at the point of their creation than the innumerable things humans don't know.
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Posted 8/7/14

AzazelOfNexium wrote:

To be completely honest. I dont see what peoples obsession with disproving religion is.

I myself, am non religious, while i believe in unlimited possibilities, i don't consider myself to be someone who believes in religion, as i find it is usually used as a way to divide people and categorize them.

i really get annoyed however, when you have extremely arrogant atheists, who believe it is their so called "mission" in life, to tell everyone how stupid they are, for holding their own beliefs. I would rather someone live their life with the hope of "heaven" than live their life knowing they will simply cease to exist.

I find these threads slightly pointless in the sense, that there is no proof that can disprove the existence of a "god" and their is no proof to prove the existence of "god". Humans like to think they know everything, and in fact, we don't. We know so very little when it comes to the universe as a whole. We have theories, but most of those are just hypothetical guesses as to what could have happened, or what may happen.

There are no facts to say, a higher power doesn't exist, just like there are no facts to prove that it exists.

While i believe alot of religions are man made creations used to enslave people to a specific mentality and train of thought, i believe that the essence of a "higher power" could be a possibility. Religions themselves are often twisted beyond belief. Men have always tried to solve the unsolvable through the use of a mythical anomaly or answer.

However, i also enjoy the fact that, it is something that can not be proven, or disproved. It adds a bit of mystery to my everyday life.


I agree with the "mean atheists" part, since nobody likes mean people anyway. They tend to dedicate more time to god than believers lol.

I have looked very deep and waited very patiently (not forever but it's no easy feat regardless of time) for god to show me signs & help me improve my life. I don't feel like waiting anymore for something so simple, so if he proves himself then so be it. Life goes on.
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Posted 8/7/14
No point.
Religion is faith and faith is the denial of disproving evidence.
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Posted 8/8/14
Please define religion. To some Crunchyroll forum could be considered religion. If you mean the worship, discussion, and rituals performed for a (G)od or gods. There is hardly anything that can be said to prove or disprove that. You cannot change someones mind who has faith, and why would you want to? Would you like them to come and proselytize you? Everyone should just keep an open mind and decide for themselves. There are too many zealots and evangelists in religion already, even atheism, but not Hinduism. Thank you Hindus!
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Posted 8/9/14

Brainstamp wrote:


AzazelOfNexium wrote:

To be completely honest. I dont see what peoples obsession with disproving religion is.

I myself, am non religious, while i believe in unlimited possibilities, i don't consider myself to be someone who believes in religion, as i find it is usually used as a way to divide people and categorize them.

i really get annoyed however, when you have extremely arrogant atheists, who believe it is their so called "mission" in life, to tell everyone how stupid they are, for holding their own beliefs. I would rather someone live their life with the hope of "heaven" than live their life knowing they will simply cease to exist.

I find these threads slightly pointless in the sense, that there is no proof that can disprove the existence of a "god" and their is no proof to prove the existence of "god". Humans like to think they know everything, and in fact, we don't. We know so very little when it comes to the universe as a whole. We have theories, but most of those are just hypothetical guesses as to what could have happened, or what may happen.

There are no facts to say, a higher power doesn't exist, just like there are no facts to prove that it exists.

While i believe alot of religions are man made creations used to enslave people to a specific mentality and train of thought, i believe that the essence of a "higher power" could be a possibility. Religions themselves are often twisted beyond belief. Men have always tried to solve the unsolvable through the use of a mythical anomaly or answer.

However, i also enjoy the fact that, it is something that can not be proven, or disproved. It adds a bit of mystery to my everyday life.


I agree with the "mean atheists" part, since nobody likes mean people anyway. They tend to dedicate more time to god than believers lol.

I have looked very deep and waited very patiently (not forever but it's no easy feat regardless of time) for god to show me signs & help me improve my life. I don't feel like waiting anymore for something so simple, so if he proves himself then so be it. Life goes on.


These arguments and points are so idiotic it's unbelievable, I feel I am banging my head against a wall just making a retort, but here goes.

First off, atheists like to try and challenge the beliefs of others because this is how the world should be, no ideology, theory or way of life should be beyond reproach. If you faith is so strong you shouldn't mind it being questions because if god is real it should be impenetrable.
Another reason is theists have been destroying the world for centuries, raping women, killing homosexuals, cutting off thieves hands, stoning people all in the name of their god. It's about god damn time someone started questioning that. It's now time that the intelligent side of the human population starts telling the other side that the human race is too old to still believe in Santa Claus.
The more people we convert to logical and rational thinking, the less wars we have and the closer to equality we get.

Secondly, the "atheists dedicate more time to god than religious people do" point is so ridiculously stupid that you should be redfaced just for saying it. You're saying that people are blindly following religion. You know who else people blindly followed? Hitler.
It doesn't surprise me that people will be so naive, that's the way religion works it takes advantage of the naive and poor to further its cause and spread the disease.
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Posted 8/9/14

JollyClaret wrote:


Brainstamp wrote:


AzazelOfNexium wrote:

To be completely honest. I dont see what peoples obsession with disproving religion is.

I myself, am non religious, while i believe in unlimited possibilities, i don't consider myself to be someone who believes in religion, as i find it is usually used as a way to divide people and categorize them.

i really get annoyed however, when you have extremely arrogant atheists, who believe it is their so called "mission" in life, to tell everyone how stupid they are, for holding their own beliefs. I would rather someone live their life with the hope of "heaven" than live their life knowing they will simply cease to exist.

I find these threads slightly pointless in the sense, that there is no proof that can disprove the existence of a "god" and their is no proof to prove the existence of "god". Humans like to think they know everything, and in fact, we don't. We know so very little when it comes to the universe as a whole. We have theories, but most of those are just hypothetical guesses as to what could have happened, or what may happen.

There are no facts to say, a higher power doesn't exist, just like there are no facts to prove that it exists.

While i believe alot of religions are man made creations used to enslave people to a specific mentality and train of thought, i believe that the essence of a "higher power" could be a possibility. Religions themselves are often twisted beyond belief. Men have always tried to solve the unsolvable through the use of a mythical anomaly or answer.

However, i also enjoy the fact that, it is something that can not be proven, or disproved. It adds a bit of mystery to my everyday life.


I agree with the "mean atheists" part, since nobody likes mean people anyway. They tend to dedicate more time to god than believers lol.

I have looked very deep and waited very patiently (not forever but it's no easy feat regardless of time) for god to show me signs & help me improve my life. I don't feel like waiting anymore for something so simple, so if he proves himself then so be it. Life goes on.


These arguments and points are so idiotic it's unbelievable, I feel I am banging my head against a wall just making a retort, but here goes.

First off, atheists like to try and challenge the beliefs of others because this is how the world should be, no ideology, theory or way of life should be beyond reproach. If you faith is so strong you shouldn't mind it being questions because if god is real it should be impenetrable.
Another reason is theists have been destroying the world for centuries, raping women, killing homosexuals, cutting off thieves hands, stoning people all in the name of their god. It's about god damn time someone started questioning that. It's now time that the intelligent side of the human population starts telling the other side that the human race is too old to still believe in Santa Claus.
The more people we convert to logical and rational thinking, the less wars we have and the closer to equality we get.

Secondly, the "atheists dedicate more time to god than religious people do" point is so ridiculously stupid that you should be redfaced just for saying it. You're saying that people are blindly following religion. You know who else people blindly followed? Hitler.
It doesn't surprise me that people will be so naive, that's the way religion works it takes advantage of the naive and poor to further its cause and spread the disease.


Jesus Mr. Crankypants. I agreed with someone else about atheists being mean to religious people who never caused them trouble, and it's a fact that EVERY atheist I've met mocks religion more times in a single day than believers bring their beliefs up. Hence dedicating more time to god than believers. Why atheists can't just be non-believers and call it a day is beyond me, because they created their own religion in being anti-religious.

I do agree a higher ratio of logical people could be good, but where believers cause wars over myths, logical people start wars over politics and aren't any more perfect. Smart people do dumb things so World Peace isn't guaranteed regardless.
We will always have believers because believing in a politician takes trust & faith too, you just have more knowledge to gamble on. Followers and leaders have always existed to this day.
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One thing is... like this article http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/06/20/find-from-era-king-david-confirm-old-testament/ the Israel government have known about it for decades but kept it a secret. Governments are known to keep this kind of digs a secret for whatever reason.
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Posted 8/10/14 , edited 8/10/14


Most of my retort was aimed at the person you originally quoted but some to you also.

Name five wars in history that didn't involve or were started by religion.

I'll give you a clue when people say it's all about politics they mean religion. The Israel conflict is an example of this, religion is so interwoven into most Middle Eastern and African countries, sticking its nose where it doesn't belong so that it is considered part of politics.

Religion is a wedge between people and shackles to the intelligent and free thinker. If we had no religion there would still be wars that wasn't my point. There would be a lot less and we'd also be more advanced as a race.

The only decent things that Religion has brought to the earth is the influence of some great art and literature, human imagination would have done this anyways so it's not worth the death toll.
Posted 8/10/14
Basically every war for independence in history? Sure, some might've been stoked by religion, but they would've happened regardless for the most part. In my unholy opinion, Religion is like the Amanto from Gintama. We got to learn to coexist. I personally don't hate religion, but I do hate religious extremism, and in my view, there's no difference in mindset between extreme atheists who attack religion at every turn and suicide bombers.
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Posted 8/10/14

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Basically every war for independence in history? Sure, some might've been stoked by religion, but they would've happened regardless for the most part. In my unholy opinion, Religion is like the Amanto from Gintama. We got to learn to coexist. I personally don't hate religion, but I do hate religious extremism, and in my view, there's no difference in mindset between extreme atheists who attack religion at every turn and suicide bombers.


So talking shit about myths is the same mindset as blowing people up as a suicide bomber, GTFO you lack common sense.
Posted 8/10/14

ROD_Junior wrote:

Proving/disproving religion - which one?

You approach this as a false dichotomy. But fact is, all religious people believe in just one religion (even if it is their personal version of a salad bar religion), rendering all other religions false. But no one asks Mormons or Yazidi to "prove" that Hinduism, deism or Orthodox Christianity are all false.

So this is not a yes/no question: instead, there are many competing religious views, and to convert a reasonable atheist, you also have to make the point why that one religion is better and more likely to be true than all the others.


You seem very detail oriented. This is not the platform for you lol
Posted 8/10/14

MarkyD73 wrote:

So talking shit about myths is the same mindset as blowing people up as a suicide bomber, GTFO you lack common sense.


Mindset wise, not results wise. Both involve hate and persecution to an irrational extent. Maybe not to the same extent, which might be a fault on my end and I am sorry. Still debating in my head on whether to retract the statement.


Though I thought it might be interesting to know, but an AP or Gallup's poll in what I think would be the year 2013, more Americans are concerned about their children marrying an Atheist versus a Muslim. (Both are pretty high.) Now I wonder, why?
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Posted 8/10/14
We all know these threads attract aggressive arguments, and we keep replying to them.
No matter how we want to speak about religion or politics on a calm level, it rarely happens.
Posted 8/10/14

JollyClaret

1. Name five wars in history that didn't involve or were started by religion.

2. Religion is a wedge between people and shackles to the intelligent and free thinker. If we had no religion there would still be wars that wasn't my point. There would be a lot less and we'd also be more advanced as a race.

The only decent things that Religion has brought to the earth is the influence of some great art and literature, human imagination would have done this anyways so it's not worth the death toll.


1. I'll give this a shot because I can't resist

1812
Mexican-American War
Spanish-American War
Falklands War
Russo-Japanese War

You asked for five, so I'll stop there.

2. Can't say I agree with that. The primary cause of nearly every war - at least in the modern era - has been dispute over land and territory. As long as states are separated by borders, it's difficult to imagine conflict occurring significantly less than it has in recent times, even if religion were removed from the equation.
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Posted 8/10/14

bravostribe1015
2. Can't say I agree with that. The primary cause of nearly every war - at least in the modern era - has been dispute over land and territory. As long as states are separated by borders, it's difficult to imagine conflict occurring significantly less than it has in recent times, even if religion were removed from the equation.


Would you like five of the reverse?
Gazza = religiously motivated
Iraq = religiously motivated
Syria = religiously motivated
Arab Springs = an event completely religiously motivated (not a war an event of revolution that caused some violent backlash)
Cambodian Geneocide = partially motivated by religion in the Khmer Rouge's attempt to stamp out religion.
Irish Civil War and The Troubles = 100% religiously motivated.
Yugoslav Wars = religiously motivated

I could literally go on and on just for modern times. You'd have a list longer than you could read if you went for every single religious based war that had ever occured.

ISIS
Taliban
Boko Haram
Suqour al-Ezz
Naqshbandi Army
IRA
UDA
UDF
KKK
Concerned Christians
Army of God
Vanguards of Conquest
Muslim Brotherhood
Most if not all White supremacist groups
The Saved Sect
Tevhid-Selam

I really really want to go on but those are just some of the militant religious groups out there. If religion didn't exist there'd be no atheism because that inturn wouldn't exist either.

Life wouldn't be perfect but it would be a lot better since there'd be one less thing to fight about
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