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Are women objects?
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25 / M
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Posted 9/20/14
Got news for you: that met 0 zero legal or dictionary definitions of rape. And that is a form of workplace intimidation that has more to do with psychological domination than sexual harassment. And the solution is simple: "Dave, fuck off I'm on the phone. And if you want to see my tits, pull out your dick". Said aloud in the office. Humiliating someone who's intimidating you works virtually every time because it breaks the illusion they have of control.

In any event; you can't be raped by being stared at. It's utterly ridiculous.
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16 / Earth
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Posted 9/20/14 , edited 9/20/14
NO
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Posted 9/20/14 , edited 9/20/14

Zeboim wrote:

No, no, no. There is never a justification for it. Even in jest, it brings up historical precedents, and its mainly men who find it funny.

In modern times, we've come a long way for equality. However, since the stone age patriarchial views still prevail , in the east, the middle east, and the west.

The more things change, the more they remain the same. I see it as swimming against the tide of a raging river. Progress is achieved slowly, and much of the same mentality still lies beneath the surface. The only way to move forward is to not entertain it. Its not funny if we are serious about this topic; it has to stop. Kidding around about women being objects isn't very funny (to whom?).

Let's not kick ourselves but be the ones doing the kicking (or at least kick back) (no pun intended).


I mean, it's not as if I'd like being introduced as "our loveliest consultant", but if he means no harm (and the only case where I might've let it slide was the case where I was reasonably sure he didn't) then the most I'd feel I would need to do is to calmly let him know that doing that was out of bounds after the meeting. It'd really be kind of embarrassing to have someone introduce me that way, so I almost certainly would ask that such a thing never happens again.
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22 / M
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Posted 9/21/14 , edited 11/19/14
Both men and women are objects. Sentient ones, that is.
Posted 9/22/14


BlueOni: "I mean, it's not as if I'd like being introduced as "our loveliest consultant", but if he means no harm (and the only case where I might've let it slide was the case where I was reasonably sure he didn't) then the most I'd feel I would need to do is to calmly let him know that doing that was out of bounds after the meeting. It'd really be kind of embarrassing to have someone introduce me that way, so I almost certainly would ask that such a thing never happens again."



So what is your point? You basically said the same thing but with different words. I didn't mean to literally go Fred Flintstone; I think my meaning was lost on you.
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Posted 9/22/14

Zeboim wrote:

So what is your point? You basically said the same thing but with different words. I didn't mean to literally go Fred Flintstone; I think my meaning was lost on you.


My point is that I more or less agree with you upon reconsideration.
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24 / F
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Posted 9/23/14
LOL eye rape. Go home , you're drunk.
Posted 9/24/14
According to popular culture, yes. They are also spoiled brats with no feelings for anything but themselves, shoes and small dogs. Money is another. Also, large penises. With these things, women thrive and can compete with their friends, who are as bad as they are.
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Posted 9/25/14

Still_Ginger wrote:

Ugh I find this thread repulsive but I guess I'll answer.

Women are people, men are people. Everybody is human. Quit assigning stupid roles and stereotypes to specific genders, it's unnecessary. The people in porn are in porn because they made the choice to be, the people who watch porn watch it because they want to. If you can't control yourself in public when you see somebody you consider attractive that is your own fault, not the fault of the person you are looking at. It's this kind of mindset that leads to blaming victims for rape.

I know plenty of women who get harassed every single day regardless of what they are wearing. This has very little to do with the clothes on their body and a lot more to do with ridiculous people who can't control themselves when they see every woman as a walking pair of boobs and a vagina. Furthermore, if I hear one more ridiculous comment about class I am going to explode. Humans have free will and their own opinions, it's none of your business whether somebody is acting with class or not. People can wear whatever they want and act however they please and if you don't think it's classy I have bad news for you, it's not your decision to make.

Just start treating people like they are people and control your ridiculous urges. The fact that you could even consider it worth debate that women are objects of any sort is absolutely disgusting to me.



Could not have said it better myself.
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29 / F / England
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Posted 9/30/14 , edited 11/19/14


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Posted 10/12/14


Good post. A lot of times women don't go around thinking, I want to express my sexually by the way I dress. They just wear clothes according to comfort, situation or time of the day. When I'm in the tropics or summer is at its hottest, I'll be in vests and or thin shirts. I happen not to be flat chested and I've got that hour glass figure. This has nothing to do with throwing any bones to anyone. I'm just dressed going about my business.
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M / Tralfamadore
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Posted 11/18/14
No women are not objects, women object.
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35 / M
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Posted 11/18/14

bravostribe1015 wrote:

1. Women got "there" because throughout nearly the entirety of human history, they have been considered the inferior sex and were relegated to little more than men's property.

2. Actually it's gotten remarkably better considering gender equality was something we didn't take seriously until relatively recently.


Actually I question this. There was an article recently about skeletons of viking warriors that were women. Mythology also tends to show women as equal to men. (and historical stories of powerful women are out there, but you kinda need to search) I have a belief that for most of human history males and females were on par, and since survival was of the utmost importance, equality reigned more than people want to claim or believe. I think sexism is far more modern than one might think, and might have a fair amount to do with the judeo-christiam faith than not, and, perhaps, more so, victorian era morality.


But aside from that, I don't have much respect for so called feminists today that say that how you dress is everyone else's fault (you shouldn't "slut shame" a woman in a tight dress [don't want the job, don't dress the part], you shouldn't "fat shame" because plus sized women are BEEEYOUUUUTIFUL!!!! and men who don't agree are sexist pigs [honestly, honey, i don't care. someone may be attracted to you, it just isn't me, you dont fit my preferences. I don't expect myself to fit everyone else's either], and men should pay for meals [when did I become an ATM?], open doors, etc.,[politeness is fine, but reciprocate. equality means we're equal and we respect each other. just a little damned reciprocation here], stand up for women in any fight [stand up for your god damned selves... FFS!!! you're not helpless. And fight your own damned battles. That's a rule everyone should follow.] and so on).

I really do dream of equality, but I think that the princess behavior has to go. just stop. now. That shit is TIRED.

And quit bitching about your own self made media. Women write and read Cosmo. Men aren't involved in that. Nor do we honestly care THAT much about fashion, cosmetics, or a lot of the other female run, female dominated, female consumed industries. It's not our fault. We aren't the ones sitting there in the coffee shops talking trash about what the woman in accounting said or what she was wearing or who she's sleeping with ("OMFG!! THE WHORE!!!") That's women ragging on women. Get that shit sorted out after you get over the princess thing. You're bound to start understanding this thing called "personal accountability" along the way. (I mean seriously.. it's all over the map. A woman that was considered one of the sexiest women in the world decides to pose nude to protest photoshopping of people's bodies!?!?!?!? How?!?!?! wha?!?!?!?! Seriously SMH here..)

Meanwhile, us men will promise to teach our less sensitive members that catcalling and whistling is not ok, (the hello thing's a bit over the top, but we'll try to get the worst offenders here). And we'll try to straighten out that wage gap thing, that's definitely wrong. We'll also try to keep some of the assholes in certain industries (mainly the computing ones) from being the sexists that they are.

Once that's taken care of, maybe we can start talking again about how to aim for this equality thing again
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29 / M
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Posted 11/18/14 , edited 11/18/14

serifsansserif wrote:


bravostribe1015 wrote:

1. Women got "there" because throughout nearly the entirety of human history, they have been considered the inferior sex and were relegated to little more than men's property.

2. Actually it's gotten remarkably better considering gender equality was something we didn't take seriously until relatively recently.


Actually I question this. There was an article recently about skeletons of viking warriors that were women. Mythology also tends to show women as equal to men. (and historical stories of powerful women are out there, but you kinda need to search) I have a belief that for most of human history males and females were on par, and since survival was of the utmost importance, equality reigned more than people want to claim or believe. I think sexism is far more modern than one might think, and might have a fair amount to do with the judeo-christiam faith than not, and, perhaps, more so, victorian era morality.


But aside from that, I don't have much respect for so called feminists today that say that how you dress is everyone else's fault (you shouldn't "slut shame" a woman in a tight dress [don't want the job, don't dress the part], you shouldn't "fat shame" because plus sized women are BEEEYOUUUUTIFUL!!!! and men who don't agree are sexist pigs [honestly, honey, i don't care. someone may be attracted to you, it just isn't me, you dont fit my preferences. I don't expect myself to fit everyone else's either], and men should pay for meals [when did I become an ATM?], open doors, etc.,[politeness is fine, but reciprocate. equality means we're equal and we respect each other. just a little damned reciprocation here], stand up for women in any fight [stand up for your god damned selves... FFS!!! you're not helpless. And fight your own damned battles. That's a rule everyone should follow.] and so on).

I really do dream of equality, but I think that the princess behavior has to go. just stop. now. That shit is TIRED.

And quit bitching about your own self made media. Women write and read Cosmo. Men aren't involved in that. Nor do we honestly care THAT much about fashion, cosmetics, or a lot of the other female run, female dominated, female consumed industries. It's not our fault. We aren't the ones sitting there in the coffee shops talking trash about what the woman in accounting said or what she was wearing or who she's sleeping with ("OMFG!! THE WHORE!!!") That's women ragging on women. Get that shit sorted out after you get over the princess thing. You're bound to start understanding this thing called "personal accountability" along the way. (I mean seriously.. it's all over the map. A woman that was considered one of the sexiest women in the world decides to pose nude to protest photoshopping of people's bodies!?!?!?!? How?!?!?! wha?!?!?!?! Seriously SMH here..)

Meanwhile, us men will promise to teach our less sensitive members that catcalling and whistling is not ok, (the hello thing's a bit over the top, but we'll try to get the worst offenders here). And we'll try to straighten out that wage gap thing, that's definitely wrong. We'll also try to keep some of the assholes in certain industries (mainly the computing ones) from being the sexists that they are.

Once that's taken care of, maybe we can start talking again about how to aim for this equality thing again

This is great. This is the kind of response that means something to me. Except you're leaving out the point of people writing for people's entertainment and people taking action for peoples' benefit. Sorry if this is some kind of low-brow explanation of an elaborate joke you're making, but if that's the case, it went over my head.

See, there's an entertainment spectrum and an activism spectrum. Both of these stem from men and women, people, having individual proclivities towards being entertained and acting on a cause. There are lots of men and women both involved in these broad industries Esquire, E!, NAACP, general Feminist movement. Organizations that arise to work for people looking to explore their proclivities. But they are not gender-specific things.

Either one can be pursued passively, a man does not have to read Cosmo to learn a Cosmo beauty tip, a woman does not have to experience catcalling to decide catcalling is unacceptable.

But the magazine is marketed differently from activism. There are girls who read Spike and boys who read Cosmo, trying to figure out what the "other sex" is about. The idea is silly in the first place, both magazines are already trying to do that for isolated, agreeably marketable perspectives, but these are the places the truly confused go to for advice.

Activism is instead speaking from isolated, agreeable to the point of action, marketable perspectives.


This topic's title is inflammatory and incites action because it is not speaking from a morally agreeable perspective. It is asking if women are objects, yes or no, and the answer is "no" unless you're way past total confusion.


Anyway,

I think I can kind of insulate and translate the OPs thoughts here, because I've had them a long time ago. They are broad. But I think I've landed somewhere nearby.

I am terrified of women. I can interact with women, but not as freely as with men. I am generally bad at gender roles because I am very aware of them.

On the other hand. I can give the same consideration to class difference when I bum a cigarette to the homeless, but I can afterwards recognize how it's justified. So I am confused.

On the other, other hand, I cannot pretend the obese are not obese. And while speaking to them, it takes up a lot of brain power to not focus on a physical attribute that I've never experienced, especially knowing that fat shame exists. So I am literally confused, but I still know women and minorities and fat people are people, not objects.

I wind up taking considerations with women that I don't with men, mostly like smiling and keeping my mouth shut, which are equally at once totally unintentional, sexist in action, and performed with gender equality in mind. The fact that sexist is in there at all means a lot. I learned the same thing about race. If you can see gender, you are sexist.

And that doesn't seem inherently negative until you look at your surroundings and wonder how it all works with you in there, and how to make sure it doesn't work, because it's clearly negative. By which I mean we need equal opportunity initiatives and a less shameful environment for the confused to admit their confusion.

My experience with men has been, they have strengths and weaknesses, and these determine the roles they can fill.

My experience with women has been, they have strengths and weaknesses, and these determine the roles they can fill.

Peoples' expectations determine who is allowed to fill a role. So in order to destroy the false expectation of the stereotype, we've got to make sure there are positive and inspiring spots that cannot be filled by the stereotype, and that we do not take encouragement from the stereotype. Cosmo is written by women? Cosmo is also pure entertainment trash. I've also seen TMZ, there's men and women both. There's no point in even thinking about Cosmo.

It's not objectifying, it's just total confusion of a man who wants equality for all and is asking for help because I can't figure it out solely within my own thin, white, low-income, semi-educated, male experience.
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29 / M
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Posted 11/19/14
I find this to be a good question and not even going to lie I haven't read all the posts here. When it comes to my view women aren't objects but beings that should be respected and admired in most cases. That being said this should hold true from a woman's point of view as well for men. Both sides should cherish the good in the other and respect them. People talk about how men judge women by how they dress, women do the same thing. Women complain about men that cat call, women do the same thing. The key thing to remember most things in life are two way streets and you can't judge anything by just looking in one direction, that's how you get steam rolled. Again this is on my 2 cents keep it or leave it. I myself have women I call mine, I protect them, I will kill for them, and I will lavish them with everything I can give them, doesn't mean I own them.
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