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Does free will truly exist?
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Posted 10/28/14 , edited 10/28/14



nanikore2 wrote:

In my previous response I quoted the statements you've made that I could parse.
The paragraph with "I think free will is simply..." didn't make much sense so I stopped. That paragraph ended with the term "the unchangeable future" which I wouldn't agree with anyhow. The future is always in flux, not set.




This is not an attack, this is trying to reconcile your confusion with my intentions. I get that you're being really hung up on semantics right now, but I think if any of us was truly qualified to prove or disprove the existence of free will with our words, we'd be doing it somewhere else. And I doubt any of us is confused by that and willing to take words as gospel, whether they are semantically perfect or not. So let the semantics go a little bit and realize that just because my word choice grates on you, the overall meaning of the words I chose is in total agreement with your standpoint that the future is in flux. And so are the semantics of words, but why spend time on that when there's so many people who haven't yet got on the bus? So you take the whole post and look at it and you realize that by describing them as "dependent" in the opener, I just mean the future and the past and the present are all in flux together at the same time, but that doesn't affect that humans experience freedom of choice. Wow, what a tough concept to describe!


nanikore2 wrote:

2. Certain physical and metaphysical models contradict "normal causation". http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/causation-backwards/

This^

I think your link does a very good job of taking a simultaneously broad and in-depth view of the subject and everyone who is curious about it should look at it.

Really. It is a choice link. Thank you.

But academic papers are tough to read. To make it more accessible, I'll bring up one of the theories for quantum computing, where a qubit can hold binary data that is not limited to being either a 0 or a 1, but can be both and everything in between all at once. This is the next level stuff we don't have the common language to describe yet.

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/quantum-computer1.htm

Bottom line,

Most of my ideas on the subject come from a blending of Eternalism, Determinism, physics, human biology, linguistics, and my own personal experience. I am only an expert in one of these fields. So there is the question in my mind whether the past or the future necessarily exist outside of human experience. But the concept of free will, to me, is not contingent upon the existence of the past, present, and future, it is based in the human experience, which I believe we cannot physically transcend. At best, we can imagine, as humans, that we have transcended it. Hopefully you can get a clearer view of my intentions from this post.
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Posted 10/28/14 , edited 10/28/14

Daniel9878 wrote:

Chance is the description for factors, unforeseeable by the human mind. "Since I do not know the outcome, I will take a chance".
Like a hidden card, the element of chance only exists, because it is faced down. Realistically, win/lose was already determined.

You see this is exactly what Free Will is, the illusion that the future is not determined.
Now if the Universe is not determined, why so can I reset to any time in the past and have the exact same future?
Reset to the year 1billion BC and I will still be sitting here typing this post 1billion, 2 thousand and fourteen years later.
Regardless of the endless amount of "Influence".

Look. It's like a movie, just because a movie has a set plot. Doesn't mean it won't be a bloody awesome movie.
You haven't seen it yet, so it has all the suspense and drama you could wish of it. I take life by the balls and I know that I will enjoy the ride no matter what happens. While I can still make my own choices, I understand that my actions come from a long linage of ancestry that lead me to where I am today. Each ancestor had to strive to get me here and I respect that.


You said that DNA is "determined by chance" but when I pointed out the oxymoronic nature of the statement you started using some definition of chance that you yourself came up with

I do not accept such a usage because that's not how the term is used.

The question "Now if the Universe is not determined, why so can I reset to any time in the past and have the exact same future?" is silly- Of course it won't be identical results every time.

Try this yourself- While sitting in the exact same position, flip a coin 10 times. The next day, go to the same position, and flip the coin 10 more times. Do this for a few days and see if any of those combinations of 10 flips come out to be the same.


morechunch wrote:
the concept of free will, to me, is not contingent upon the existence of the past, present, and future, it is based in the human experience, which I believe we cannot physically transcend.


The above statement I could understand. I've no objections to such a view.

I was not being picky... When discussing highly detailed topics it's important to be very clear, otherwise we run the risk of talking completely past each other (each working off of what each thinks the other is saying, but not really what the other person is actually trying to say). I hope you understand.
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Posted 10/28/14
Free does exsist
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Posted 11/1/14

nanikore2 wrote:


Daniel9878 wrote:

Chance is the description for factors, unforeseeable by the human mind. "Since I do not know the outcome, I will take a chance".
Like a hidden card, the element of chance only exists, because it is faced down. Realistically, win/lose was already determined.

You see this is exactly what Free Will is, the illusion that the future is not determined.
Now if the Universe is not determined, why so can I reset to any time in the past and have the exact same future?
Reset to the year 1billion BC and I will still be sitting here typing this post 1billion, 2 thousand and fourteen years later.
Regardless of the endless amount of "Influence".

Look. It's like a movie, just because a movie has a set plot. Doesn't mean it won't be a bloody awesome movie.
You haven't seen it yet, so it has all the suspense and drama you could wish of it. I take life by the balls and I know that I will enjoy the ride no matter what happens. While I can still make my own choices, I understand that my actions come from a long linage of ancestry that lead me to where I am today. Each ancestor had to strive to get me here and I respect that.


You said that DNA is "determined by chance" but when I pointed out the oxymoronic nature of the statement you started using some definition of chance that you yourself came up with

I do not accept such a usage because that's not how the term is used.

The question "Now if the Universe is not determined, why so can I reset to any time in the past and have the exact same future?" is silly- Of course it won't be identical results every time.

Try this yourself- While sitting in the exact same position, flip a coin 10 times. The next day, go to the same position, and flip the coin 10 more times. Do this for a few days and see if any of those combinations of 10 flips come out to be the same.


I said reset to the exact same time space in the past. Meaning the same state of universe. Same state of mind.
If I were to sit down the next day. There would be over a million variables out of place. E.g My heart rate, the airflow, the temperature.

The exact same variables always produce the same outcome. It's the scientific method. This you cannot debunk.

What I meant about chance was that it is in illusion, just as time is an illusion, just as free will is an illusion.
Yes, there is a definition for chance and time and free will. But we are here to debate the existence of such things.
Whether or not they are provable. right now Time is unproven and unprovable.

Time does not exist. Just like chance, it is a concept made up by humans. A clock is simply the movement of the electrons in the battery, moving the motor, moving the gears, that turn the hand. Our concept of time, is the state of movement that the hands are in. Or the position of the earth in relation to the sun and the other planets. We measure time by the rate at which other objects "move" in comparison to our own "movements". This is not philosophy, it's physics.

The majority of the scientific community believes in a deterministic universe. Not all of them however have made the connection that it also means the nonexistence of free will.

Let's say we did not believe in linear time. That there was parallel universes. The parallel universe where my parents live in Mexico and I am alive may be an impossible one, simply because it would be impossible for the event of my DNA arranging in the sequence that is ME to appear in conjunction with those events. And even if it were possible. There would also be a billion parallel universes for each one that you do exist, where you don't.



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Posted 11/2/14 , edited 11/2/14
Exist: yes. Free: Definitely no.

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Posted 11/7/14
Whether or not it exists, it is a necessary illusion, and implicit in any discussions of law or morality.

I have other reasons that I believe it exists, but then again, I said that regardless of it existing..... So it's kind of a circular answer.
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