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Post Reply Fate/Stay Night - The Visual Novel and its adaptations
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31 / M / The Abyss of Time
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Posted 10/26/14 , edited 10/26/14

imaginarycreatures wrote:


Kiritsugu is kind of a mixed bag really as far as luck goes since he did get Arturia specifically as his Saber even with Avalon the chances had to be pretty even to low (bad combo with personality/ideals-wise but powerful + protector type for Iri), was lucky enough to run into Natalia, then also was lucky enough to be born with anti-mage material within himself to fight mages. Though he also did lose a lot of people in his life, has to use an ability that has a nasty effect on his body, ends up causing a massive fire, and summons a spirit that ideal-wise is antagonistic to his (though this is mixed bag for the previous reason I mentioned)
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Posted 10/27/14 , edited 10/27/14

LoomyTheBrew wrote:

I just want to say that I think it's pretty awesome that this one single battle has a lot of depth to it if you look closely. The fact that there's so much strategy, character motives/behaviors, plot points, and other major foreshadows in one battle and the fact that we can an in depth discussion about it, speaks for itself if you ask me.


That's actually the main thing that causes me to compare Nasu to Neil Gaiman, besides the similar genres they work in. Sure, he can sometimes be long-winded, and he certainly loves to explain all the rules in his fictional universe, but he also gives the world a lot of depth, and uses the world and events to reinforce the themes of the story. Not only the motivations and past histories of the Masters, but the Heroic Spirits as well, along with the uniqueness of the situation, the idea of what to do with the Grail, Gilgamesh's influence on events.

I mean, just in that one fight, you have three Masters and Heroic Spirits, each with their own agendas. Rin wants to do her family proud and prove she's the best. Shirou wants to ensure that the death and destruction of the last Holy Grail War doesn't happen again. Ilya wants to do her family proud (and, depending on the route, wants revenge against Shirou because daddy issues), but also knows that her entire existence is in service of the Third Magic.

Meanwhile, Saber's entire existence is in service of the Grail; not the one in F/SN, but the real one. So, until she really finds out it isn't the real one, her motivation is clear. Archer's motivation is also clear; well, eventually its clear. He wants to make sure that this version of Shirou doesn't go the same road that he went. Heracles...well, he's Berserker, so he doesn't exactly *have* a motivation; this is him taken from the time when he went mad from Hera's influence, so pretty much "Hulk smash" is his motivation.

This is the one problem I did have with the fight scene in the last episode. I thought this was supposed to be a fight that Shirou should know, at the end, he had absolutely no chance of winning. The fight portrayed was awesome, but it didn't seem as readily apparent that Saber could not, in her current state, have any chance of winning (and quite possibly couldn't win under any circumstance).
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Posted 10/27/14
Oh, well this is nice wish I could contribute a lot here, but my memory in a few details on the VN are getting fuzzy, and life is trying to keep me away from anime
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Posted 10/27/14
I've been mulling over where I think the series will cut off for its break and I'm confident it will be right before archer betrays rin or shirous character moment after illya dies. I personally hope that its the latter, it would be an amazing cliff hanger and also gives one of the biggest insights to shirous character in the visual novel.

The other thong I'm really looking toward to is seeing how the anime handles the relationship between shirou and archer. Like many other people have already stated I hope we get to see more details on archers backstory, and a visual medium would be the perfect opputunity in order to better show it, especially since we should Starr getting details within the next few episodes. We've already seen an instance of the connection shirou and archer share with shirou sensing his attack and emphasizing this is something I would love to see. Their relationship isthe crux of the ubw route so if anything needs to he done right it is this.
Sogno- 
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Posted 10/27/14
this thread was really needed , i wanted to use the other one for discussion of current anime and that wasn't happening. So thank you so much!
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Posted 10/27/14

shadowtonberry wrote:


imaginarycreatures wrote:


shadowtonberry wrote:


Nobodyofimportance wrote:

So lancer is stronger than Archer, interesting.


Due to circumstances, Archer's stats are kind of bad. I don't know if Lancer mentioned this, but his Master is having him just observe other Servants rather than seriously fight them, that's why he asked Saber if they could just call their fight a draw.


Also, the Master who summons the Heroic Spirit has an influence on their power levels. That's why Berserker's stats are so high; not only is he a demi-god (and thus a high level Heroic Spirit), but his master is Ilya, who's probably the world's most powerful living magus. Conversely, Saber is relatively low because Emiya is an inexperienced magus; in Fate/Zero she was much stronger. Lancer's a poor sap that gets stuck with the worst luck in every route; I guess he kinda wins one battle, if you can call that a win.


I always wonder how individual stats work out. I understand that aside from how powerful a Servant was when they were alive, their Master, and their fame really goes into determining how powerful they are when they are summoned, but sometimes some stats seem just to be random, like Saber having D-Rank Luck with Kiritsugu. I guess that's not a huge deal, anyways.


FACT TIME!!!!!!

If you know who wrote Fate zero, Gen Urobuchi is know for giving his main character bad luck. Heres's the interview/Question

Questions 09: Why is my luck stat curiously low... it seems even lower than when I fell to the dark side 10 years later. What kind of curse is this? [ Fuyuki · King of Knights ]

Nasu: In Zero, due to the effect of Urobuchi Gen's Reality Marble, Dead End Catharsis: Heaven and Hell Drop, all character's luck have been lowered by one rank.
Gen: But at the same time Kinoko Dimension also took place in Fuyuki, so those who can survive will definitely live. Something this reasonable happens very rarely in Urobuchi's world, so it's already a very considerate measure.

Anyway amazing thread, I no longer have to use a spoiler tag
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Posted 10/27/14 , edited 10/27/14

imaginarycreatures wrote:


LoomyTheBrew wrote:

I just want to say that I think it's pretty awesome that this one single battle has a lot of depth to it if you look closely. The fact that there's so much strategy, character motives/behaviors, plot points, and other major foreshadows in one battle and the fact that we can an in depth discussion about it, speaks for itself if you ask me.


That's actually the main thing that causes me to compare Nasu to Neil Gaiman, besides the similar genres they work in. Sure, he can sometimes be long-winded, and he certainly loves to explain all the rules in his fictional universe, but he also gives the world a lot of depth, and uses the world and events to reinforce the themes of the story. Not only the motivations and past histories of the Masters, but the Heroic Spirits as well, along with the uniqueness of the situation, the idea of what to do with the Grail, Gilgamesh's influence on events.

I mean, just in that one fight, you have three Masters and Heroic Spirits, each with their own agendas. Rin wants to do her family proud and prove she's the best. Shirou wants to ensure that the death and destruction of the last Holy Grail War doesn't happen again. Ilya wants to do her family proud (and, depending on the route, wants revenge against Shirou because daddy issues), but also knows that her entire existence is in service of the Third Magic.

Meanwhile, Saber's entire existence is in service of the Grail; not the one in F/SN, but the real one. So, until she really finds out it isn't the real one, her motivation is clear. Archer's motivation is also clear; well, eventually its clear. He wants to make sure that this version of Shirou doesn't go the same road that he went. Heracles...well, he's Berserker, so he doesn't exactly *have* a motivation; this is him taken from the time when he went mad from Hera's influence, so pretty much "Hulk smash" is his motivation.

This is the one problem I did have with the fight scene in the last episode. I thought this was supposed to be a fight that Shirou should know, at the end, he had absolutely no chance of winning. The fight portrayed was awesome, but it didn't seem as readily apparent that Saber could not, in her current state, have any chance of winning (and quite possibly couldn't win under any circumstance).


I don't know much about Gaiman, but yes you definitely understand what I was talking about. So many different goals in one fight, it's really awesome to see.

And regarding your last paragraph, ya, Saber had no chance of surviving if it wasn't for Shirou. I'm guessing that's why you were bugged by it? It should be noted that Shirou said he was completely powerless in the fight, but he decided to do something rather than nothing and it ended up saving his servant's life. I don't see the problem with that because Saber couldn't have detected Archer's final arrow. Saber ended up beating Berserker, but of course he had like 11 more lives so she didn't really win but ideally she did kill him and win for a moment. I don't see the problem that you see I don't think. I thought Shirou did the right thing and Saber did all she could do considering that she was injured as well.
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Posted 10/27/14 , edited 10/27/14

LoomyTheBrew wrote:


imaginarycreatures wrote:


LoomyTheBrew wrote:

I just want to say that I think it's pretty awesome that this one single battle has a lot of depth to it if you look closely. The fact that there's so much strategy, character motives/behaviors, plot points, and other major foreshadows in one battle and the fact that we can an in depth discussion about it, speaks for itself if you ask me.


That's actually the main thing that causes me to compare Nasu to Neil Gaiman, besides the similar genres they work in. Sure, he can sometimes be long-winded, and he certainly loves to explain all the rules in his fictional universe, but he also gives the world a lot of depth, and uses the world and events to reinforce the themes of the story. Not only the motivations and past histories of the Masters, but the Heroic Spirits as well, along with the uniqueness of the situation, the idea of what to do with the Grail, Gilgamesh's influence on events.

I mean, just in that one fight, you have three Masters and Heroic Spirits, each with their own agendas. Rin wants to do her family proud and prove she's the best. Shirou wants to ensure that the death and destruction of the last Holy Grail War doesn't happen again. Ilya wants to do her family proud (and, depending on the route, wants revenge against Shirou because daddy issues), but also knows that her entire existence is in service of the Third Magic.

Meanwhile, Saber's entire existence is in service of the Grail; not the one in F/SN, but the real one. So, until she really finds out it isn't the real one, her motivation is clear. Archer's motivation is also clear; well, eventually its clear. He wants to make sure that this version of Shirou doesn't go the same road that he went. Heracles...well, he's Berserker, so he doesn't exactly *have* a motivation; this is him taken from the time when he went mad from Hera's influence, so pretty much "Hulk smash" is his motivation.

This is the one problem I did have with the fight scene in the last episode. I thought this was supposed to be a fight that Shirou should know, at the end, he had absolutely no chance of winning. The fight portrayed was awesome, but it didn't seem as readily apparent that Saber could not, in her current state, have any chance of winning (and quite possibly couldn't win under any circumstance).


I don't know much about Gaiman, but yes you definitely understand what I was talking about. So many different goals in one fight, it's really awesome to see.

And regarding your last paragraph, ya, Saber had no chance of surviving if it wasn't for Shirou. I'm guessing that's why you were bugged by it? It should be noted that Shirou said he was completely powerless in the fight, but he decided to do something rather than nothing and it ended up saving his servant's life. I don't see the problem with that because Saber couldn't have detected Archer's final arrow. Saber ended up beating Berserker, but of course he had like 11 more lives so she didn't really win but ideally she did kill him and win for a moment. I don't see the problem that you see I don't think. I thought Shirou did the right thing and Saber did all she could do considering that she was injured as well.


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Posted 10/27/14
I think its pretty sure to assume that the blast would have killed them both. Also I think Archer is depicted as too weak, at last his final attack, while Saber seems too strong, considering her weakened status. I mean in the VN it was so strong, that it forced Berserker too abandon the fight with Saber and deal with the arrow. Sorry to say this, but I smell some pandering to Saberfans here. Her blade shouldnt even have been able to cut him, as invisible air is just C-Rank. And then Cadabolg II is A-Rank and does nothing?!

Oh and PS: Ilya is nowhere the most powerful mage there. There are still Zelretch, several Association mages, the Aozaki sisters etc. All of them can take on servants themselves.
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Posted 10/27/14 , edited 10/27/14

DawnOfAthena wrote:

I think its pretty sure to assume that the blast would have killed them both. Also I think Archer is depicted as too weak, at last his final attack, while Saber seems too strong, considering her weakened status. I mean in the VN it was so strong, that it forced Berserker too abandon the fight with Saber and deal with the arrow. Sorry to say this, but I smell some pandering to Saberfans here. Her blade shouldnt even have been able to cut him, as invisible air is just C-Rank. And then Cadabolg II is A-Rank and does nothing?!

Oh and PS: Ilya is nowhere the most powerful mage there. There are still Zelretch, several Association mages, the Aozaki sisters etc. All of them can take on servants themselves.




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Posted 10/27/14 , edited 10/27/14
Doesnt change the fact she has the fifth magic.
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Posted 10/27/14

TomCraft wrote:



You're supposed to spoil things from other series, Tom. I haven't read Mahoyo yet, and I'd like to remain relatively ignorant until Herkz gets off his butt and finishes translating it.
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Posted 10/27/14

DawnOfAthena wrote:

Doesnt change the fact she has the fifth magic.


Mayo spoiler ahead
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Posted 10/27/14 , edited 10/27/14

TomCraft wrote:


DawnOfAthena wrote:

Doesnt change the fact she has the fifth magic.


Mayo spoiler ahead


Ah dont ask me about it, I´m happy I´m figuring out as much as I do from this story.
The rest although is still aknowledged Nasuverse canon.
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Posted 10/27/14

TomCraft wrote:



I'm saying that Shirou saved Saber from the nuke. Shirou was not completely useless, if he didn't get Saber out of that spot she would have been screwed. Saber even said it herself.
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