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What's NOT harassment?
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Posted 11/4/14

_wio_ wrote:

I define harassment as any behavior that is continued even after being told to stop. The point is that many behaviors are benign, but they can make people uncomfortable and should be disengaged once you know it makes the person uncomfortable. If a behavior is so severe that one should not even need a warning, then it isn't harassment but rather a violation from the start. The point of policing harassment is to allow a gray area so that not everything must be classified under completely acceptable or completely unacceptable.

Unfortunately the word "harassment" seems to be co-opted. Now it is not required to actually tell someone to stop. This essentially means that entering a gray area is no different than doing something explicitly prohibited. It's much better to outright ban a behavior than to leave it in a state where one party can arbitrarily decide whether it was wrong or not. At the same time, most people want there to exist a gray area than to be walking on eggshells indefinitely. Thus we don't end up with a clear black and white, but rather a pseudo-gray area that is really a black area.



AmaraRin wrote:

Here is my take as a plus size woman who gets harrassed like that almost daily. Males need to stop thinking they are entitled to everything. Catcalling is part of that entitlement.

I am fine if you say I look stunning in the outfit I am wearing, but then back off. Actual complements are fine, catcalling isn't.

I do not need to smile at someone because they think I should, I do not need to know what you want to do with my body, butt, boobs, etc. I do not need to be hassled trying to get from point A to B, I do not at all need some dude thinking it is fine to hassle me while I am in the middle of a phone call because he thinks it is fake so I can ignore him.

Until men learn the world doesn't bow to them, a lot of this will be labeled as harassment because that is what it is becoming.


The one who is entitled is not the men, but you. You're demanding that they change their behavior simply for your own convenience without honestly considering why they do what they do.

In general men have to approach women and women get approached. It can be somewhat of a self perpetuating rule because if men don't get approached then they must approach women, and if women get approached it is not as necessary to leave their comfort zone to approach men. It is very easy to be critical of someone who is doing something you've never had to do yourself.

Catcalling is a very subjective term. Everyone draws the line at a different place. The men who approach women whom they don't know on the street do so because sometimes it works. The same concept applies to someone who is begging for money on the street. The beggar does not necessarily feel entitled to money, they are just exercising their freedom to beg.

Here read, comprehend and understand then get back to me on this. Cat calling is street harassment. http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/about/what-is-street-harassment/

Also get over your entitlement because being told explicitly what some random dude on the street wants to do with my body is HARASSMENT. That also falls under treat of sexual violence. So no it isn't women who need to change our behavior it is men because when we say stop we don't like that we normal end up dead. Look it up because guess what? It happen more often then you think.
Posted 11/4/14

AmaraRin wrote:

Using a disorder as an excuse is pathetic. People with said disorders can learn not to do that. But to pin their behavior on a disorder and go "well they can't change the way they are" is very pathetic.


I think someone who refuses to exercise an ounce of understanding and insists that everyone else should just change to make her feel "safe," is more pathetic than someone who is seriously struggling with learning how to properly function in society. Just saying... If you're that paranoid, then just lock yourself at home or hire a personal bodyguard who doesn't appear threatening to you.
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Posted 11/4/14

AmaraRin wrote:


xDeadlyDollx wrote:


AmaraRin wrote:

No. I prefer to be left alone, but in social settings (work, friend's party, etc) I do prefer to initiate contact with people in general, not just men. That way I get a clearer view of the person. I am distrustful by nature due to the way i grew up.

Also for me threatening would be sudden aggressive posture changes like getting in my personal space, bumping up against me, randomly touching me, any type of movement that is far to close to my face, or neck, also coming up to me from behind is a good way to make me feel threatened.

Any changes in tone. If you go from being interested in something being said to suddenly sexual that is a good indication you aren't interested in the conversation. Like take the sentience "I never said she took the money." depending on which word is stressed, changes the whole tone of the sentence. It can be said 7 ways and have 7 different meanings.

Wording also can fall in with the tone of voice, because the moment your tone changes your words do too. Minute changes in wording isn't always picked up on but if you know what to look for like stressing of a word you can tell a lot of a person's intentions.


I see now. Although I would like to point out that some people who are not so socially adept, or who suffer from certain Autism Spectrum Disorders, may act in a way you deem threatening though they mean you absolutely no harm. I once worked with a guy who had Asperger's Syndrome and he'd always come up real close to me and try to engage me in conversations, often multiple times during our shift trying to tell me the same thing over and over and over again. He also tends to be rather loud, overexcited, and sometimes obnoxious. Of course, at first I found it pretty uncomfortable, but after the first interaction I had with him, I realized he was no threat. He was simply like that and I learned to adapt by being stern with him and telling him off whenever I needed to. I guess what I'm trying to say is, though I understand that due to your personal background, you're distrustful and easily threatened, I think it's not very healthy to always be in that mindset. It helps to be a little be more observant and understanding of others.


Using a disorder as an excuse is pathetic. People with said disorders can learn not to do that. But to pin their behavior on a disorder and go "well they can't change the way they are" is very pathetic.


Well if your talking about a disorder of the brain is what your implying I think then they can't help it since a disorder of the brain is just like a disease just like cancer and diabetes is.

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Posted 11/4/14 , edited 11/4/14

xDeadlyDollx wrote:


AmaraRin wrote:

Using a disorder as an excuse is pathetic. People with said disorders can learn not to do that. But to pin their behavior on a disorder and go "well they can't change the way they are" is very pathetic.


I think someone who refuses to exercise an ounce of understanding and insists that everyone else should just change to make her feel "safe," is more pathetic than someone who is seriously struggling with learning how to properly function in society. Just saying... If you're that paranoid, then just lock yourself at home or hire a personal bodyguard who doesn't appear threatening to you.


You know what, you try being told almost daily what some guy with an entitlment issue explicitly wants to do with your body and then see how safe you feel. What you won't.

I have had my bloody job threatened by my boss because I told some guy to stop touching my ass. I have had threats of sexual violence. Would you feel safe? No? Now you are learning.

Until you men feel and deal with even the smallest idea that saying "No." will get you killed, you have no say in this. And if you pull the "Well not all men!" yeah great but what are you doing about the ones that are? Oh wait? Nothing you say? Then sit down and shut up.


kakashi2k7 wrote:

Well if your talking about a disorder of the brain is what your implying I think then they can't help it since a disorder of the brain is just like a disease just like cancer and diabetes is.



Wrong, anyone with any disorder, be it bipolar disorder, autism, etc. they can be taught how to control said behaviors. Does it take patience and time? Yes but it doesn't mean they can't learn.

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Posted 11/4/14 , edited 11/4/14

AmaraRin wrote:

Wrong, anyone with any disorder, be it bipolar disorder, autism, etc. they can be taught how to control said behaviors. Does it take patience and time? Yes but it doesn't mean they can't learn.


They need to learn good coping skills. Yes, it takes time and family support and support from the community but a full recovery can be made through diet and exercise. If the kid acts up or throws a fit you should comfort them not make fun of them it only creates a bigger problem then.
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Posted 11/4/14 , edited 11/4/14
My angle on this topic is where the line should be drawn and I do believe that AmaraRin has the line drawn in around the same place I would (though all the "us versus them" mentality isn't agreeable). The issue is though that not everyone draws the line there. It doesn't happen to me often but I have had my intentions misread before while legitimately trying to assist someone and that is a horrible feeling. "Is that what people think of me?"

As for the whole refusal equals death thing... Usually it is the people you already know and/or trust that is the most dangerous and if you have that many people in your life that are acting this way towards you its time you exclude them or remove yourself. If what you have been saying is true then that is pretty much by the books harassment and your employer needs to be held accountable. You are locked into a no win situation here and I acknowledge that public awareness of the issue gives you the best/safest chance at fixing things. This is however where my agreement ends... It needs to be made clear where you draw the line (to prove you are not in the group with the incredibly ridiculous definition of harassment) and you CANNOT start blanket blaming other men or society in general if you want to enact change. Being all inclusive with the blame does not help as the natural human reaction would be rejection and defensiveness.

Anytime you let attitude enter an argument or debate that is where people stop taking you seriously and they shut it down.
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Posted 11/4/14 , edited 11/4/14

kakashi2k7 wrote:

They need to learn good coping skills. Yes, it takes time and family support and support from the community but a full recovery can be made through diet and exercise. If the kid acts up or throws a fit you should comfort them not make fun of them it only creates a bigger problem then.

Where did I say you didn't comfort them and make fun of them? Oh wait I didn't. I am saying that to blame their "bad" behaviour on their disorder and go "Oh well you know they have autism! They can't change how they are!" Is a pathetic and outdated excuse for behaviours that have been shown can change with the right programs.



For anyone who actually needs a visual of street harassment and cat calling.

Also anyone have a problem with my "attitude" can kiss my maple glazed back bacon. I'm sick of the pathetic excuses and mansplaining. Until you have lived it, what you have to say is nil and void.

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Posted 11/4/14
if she says it's harassment, then it it's harassment, period. male intent is irrelevant, her feelings are paramount; no further discourse is needed. I'd like to say to all the men out there, "If she likes you, she'll go out of her way to let you know."
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18 / M / Out of sight (But...
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Posted 11/4/14
"Have a nice day!"

I feel so violated..
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Posted 11/4/14

Firedestroyer wrote:

"Have a nice day!"

I feel so violated..


How about if it was said with the accompaniment of an upraised middle finger? It's easy to mock. harder to live.


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Posted 11/4/14
lmao. anyone ever notice the ones who whine about "sexual harassment" the most are fat she trolls who no man wants to see necked *shivers*
Posted 11/4/14 , edited 11/4/14

AmaraRin wrote:

You know what, you try being told almost daily what some guy with an entitlment issue explicitly wants to do with your body and then see how safe you feel. What you won't.

I have had my bloody job threatened by my boss because I told some guy to stop touching my ass. I have had threats of sexual violence. Would you feel safe? No? Now you are learning.

Until you men feel and deal with even the smallest idea that saying "No." will get you killed, you have no say in this. And if you pull the "Well not all men!" yeah great but what are you doing about the ones that are? Oh wait? Nothing you say? Then sit down and shut up.


1. I am not a man.

2. I don't need to engage you in a contest of experiences and I don't really feel the need to tell you what I have gone through. Why? Because it's unnecessary and has no influence whatsoever in how I live my life and interact with people. Bad things happen and some people are absolutely disgusting, but I just brush it off, take what I can from the experience and move on. I'm not gonna be paranoid of every other human being simply because I've met some terrible ones. I, personally, wouldn't want any guy who've been harassed and hurt by other women to look at me like some freakin' psycho cunt who'll do exactly the same thing. It's one thing to be cautious, it's a whole other thing to put the guilt on everyone and treat them like criminals simply for being a certain gender. THAT'S what I would call pathetic.

3. I believe the reason I cannot understand you completely is because I cannot comprehend your insistence on being such a helpless victim. No wonder you're so paranoid. It must suck to live a life where you feel the whole world's out to get you...
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Posted 11/4/14
It's not harassment if someone was invited or welcomed to behave a particular way.
Posted 11/4/14

_wio_ wrote:


AmaraRin wrote:

Here is my take as a plus size woman who gets harrassed like that almost daily. Males need to stop thinking they are entitled to everything. Catcalling is part of that entitlement.

I am fine if you say I look stunning in the outfit I am wearing, but then back off. Actual complements are fine, catcalling isn't.

I do not need to smile at someone because they think I should, I do not need to know what you want to do with my body, butt, boobs, etc. I do not need to be hassled trying to get from point A to B, I do not at all need some dude thinking it is fine to hassle me while I am in the middle of a phone call because he thinks it is fake so I can ignore him.

Until men learn the world doesn't bow to them, a lot of this will be labeled as harassment because that is what it is becoming.


The one who is entitled is not the men, but you. You're demanding that they change their behavior simply for your own convenience without honestly considering why they do what they do.

In general men have to approach women and women get approached. It can be somewhat of a self perpetuating rule because if men don't get approached then they must approach women, and if women get approached it is not as necessary to leave their comfort zone to approach men. It is very easy to be critical of someone who is doing something you've never had to do yourself.


It's perfectly fine for men to approach women. But it shouldn't be too much to ask for them to do so in a normal, non-irritating manner.
Posted 11/4/14

tkayt wrote:

It's not harassment if someone was invited or welcomed to behave a particular way.


In that case, all outside interaction initiated by ANY stranger if uninvited by the receiver can be called harassment. I believe sales people and recruiters would also be in a line of work that can be considered as harassment.
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