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Why is the ISIL/IS not recognized as a state? Why do we call them Terrorists?
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26 / M / Pandemonium
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Posted 11/6/14 , edited 11/6/14

morechunch


I was thinking more in regards to the "killing being in line with the islamic faith" part. Not the "kill those assholes" parts, which honestly was the minor part of the comment.
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Posted 11/6/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


KurisuSensei wrote:

Mohammad didn't just go around killing people, as he claims. The religion doesn't give followers free run to indiscriminantly murder, and the idea that we should be killing people we dislike is exactly the thing they are doing.

So, what part of his complete ignorance and irrational fear of Islam should I be disproving?


Who said anything about fear?
Sure, islam doesn't give free reigns to kill just anyone, but it DOES encourate the killing of many. Jews, apostates, homosexuals, blasphemers, adulterers, etc.

The idea that we shouldn't kill people we dislike -- now that I agree with.
But then also keep in mind that in case of ISIL, it's not simply a matter of "not liking" them. They're people who kill innocent people. Who kill anyone who disagree with them.
Now, I'm not saying that we SHOULD kill the members of ISIL. Just saying that there's a difference between ISIL and people we just don't like.


The fear is pretty evident. You are scared of what you don't understand and you REALLY don't understand. For example, let me just tweak what you wrote a bit:

Sure, Christianity doesn't give free reigns to kill just anyone, but it DOES encourate the killing of many. Jews, apostates, homosexuals, blasphemers, adulterers, etc.

Have ever read the bible? Christianity is scary as hell. It promotes incest, child rape, gang rape, slavery, slave rape, murdering your own children for not listening to you, and much more.

The entire reason the middle east is a mess right now is because the Christians went on the Crusades and turned the Arab world from the most advanced scientific culture in the world to a destroyed shit hole. We were the barbarians. We came in and destroyed thousands of years of knowledge and progress. We were what you think they are now.

ISIS is nothing to do with Islam. It's about politics and power. It's about getting what you want through force and propaganda.
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Posted 11/7/14 , edited 11/7/14

KurisuSensei wrote:


Syndicaidramon wrote:


KurisuSensei wrote:

Mohammad didn't just go around killing people, as he claims. The religion doesn't give followers free run to indiscriminantly murder, and the idea that we should be killing people we dislike is exactly the thing they are doing.

So, what part of his complete ignorance and irrational fear of Islam should I be disproving?


Who said anything about fear?
Sure, islam doesn't give free reigns to kill just anyone, but it DOES encourate the killing of many. Jews, apostates, homosexuals, blasphemers, adulterers, etc.

The idea that we shouldn't kill people we dislike -- now that I agree with.
But then also keep in mind that in case of ISIL, it's not simply a matter of "not liking" them. They're people who kill innocent people. Who kill anyone who disagree with them.
Now, I'm not saying that we SHOULD kill the members of ISIL. Just saying that there's a difference between ISIL and people we just don't like.


The fear is pretty evident. You are scared of what you don't understand and you REALLY don't understand. For example, let me just tweak what you wrote a bit:

Sure, Christianity doesn't give free reigns to kill just anyone, but it DOES encourate the killing of many. Jews, apostates, homosexuals, blasphemers, adulterers, etc.

Have ever read the bible? Christianity is scary as hell. It promotes incest, child rape, gang rape, slavery, slave rape, murdering your own children for not listening to you, and much more.

The entire reason the middle east is a mess right now is because the Christians went on the Crusades and turned the Arab world from the most advanced scientific culture in the world to a destroyed shit hole. We were the barbarians. We came in and destroyed thousands of years of knowledge and progress. We were what you think they are now.

ISIS is nothing to do with Islam. It's about politics and power. It's about getting what you want through force and propaganda.


This is also what I'm talking about. If we want to look at ISIS and how they could possibly come about, we have to look at the politics and power currently influencing Syria. And let's not be so closed-minded as to assume this large a group can spring up based solely on religious tenants.

Reference Nazis. What are the US ties to the middle east? What were the US ties to Europe leading up to the 1940s? What were the overall European trends that the Nazis didn't like in the 1930s?

It's difficult stuff, but you can see the same broken pattern repeating.
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Posted 11/7/14 , edited 11/7/14
Hang on, are you guys claiming that every muslim is a terrorist or am I misinterpreting things?

Speaking of US' involvement - doesn't America involve themselves in everything regardlessly?
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33 / M / outer wall, level...
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Posted 11/7/14
because solider have rights. terrorist do not. if its not a state, then their not soilders, and therefor the laws do not apply to them.
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29 / M
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Posted 11/7/14

Lenalee1 wrote:

Hang on, are you guys claiming that every muslim is a terrorist or am I misinterpreting things?

Speaking of US' involvement - doesn't America involve themselves in everything regardlessly?


That's kind of the implication I see.

I wouldn't even go as far as to say every terrorist is a Muslim.
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26 / M / Pandemonium
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Posted 11/7/14 , edited 11/7/14

KurisuSensei
The fear is pretty evident. You are scared of what you don't understand and you REALLY don't understand.


Contempt =/= fear.




KurisuSensei
For example, let me just tweak what you wrote a bit:
Sure, Christianity doesn't give free reigns to kill just anyone, but it DOES encourate the killing of many. Jews, apostates, homosexuals, blasphemers, adulterers, etc.


Well if you were talking about judaism, you'd be spot on. Though christianity has that whole Jesus part, which negates the old testament... Or at least it SHOULD, but the actions of many religious people both past and present proves that apparently not...
Still not a fan of christianity mind you, just that that example makes no sense.



KurisuSensei
Have ever read the bible? Christianity is scary as hell. It promotes incest, child rape, gang rape, slavery, slave rape, murdering your own children for not listening to you, and much more.


I know. What, did you think I only had a beef with islam?



KurisuSensei
The entire reason the middle east is a mess right now is because the Christians went on the Crusades and turned the Arab world from the most advanced scientific culture in the world to a destroyed shit hole. We were the barbarians. We came in and destroyed thousands of years of knowledge and progress. We were what you think they are now.


That does not explain things like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpeIS25jhK4
And I wasn't talking about just the middle east, nor only about the actions of muslim extremists. I was talking about the attitudes and views that many muslims have on various things.
And even so, that doesn't change the scriptures in any way. And the scriptures are no less barbaric than they have been.



KurisuSensei
ISIS is nothing to do with Islam. It's about politics and power. It's about getting what you want through force and propaganda.


ISIS base their beliefs on islam and follow them to a T. ISIS is the face of pure fundamentalist islamism.
That's pretty much as islamic as you can get.
Now does that mean that ISIS was concieved solely because of religion or even because of religion at all? No, of course not. But to say ISIS has nothing to do with islam is simply inaccurate.

Also, I don't recall actually mentioning ISIS. I didn't have them in mind at all. I've hated islam (and the other abrahamic religions in general) since before ISIS was a thing.
Posted 11/7/14
Do you even get any news coverage at all? Online/TV/Newspaper?

I read an article of them killing all males older than 10 (assuming brain wash younger ones) - and have the females for... That was a story on thousands in that religious minority town (the name for them escapes me right now).

If you think that is civilized, I seriously question your line of thought. Again, I lost hope.
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Posted 11/8/14

morechunch wrote:


Lenalee1 wrote:

Hang on, are you guys claiming that every muslim is a terrorist or am I misinterpreting things?

Speaking of US' involvement - doesn't America involve themselves in everything regardlessly?


That's kind of the implication I see.

I wouldn't even go as far as to say every terrorist is a Muslim.


I know right. If every muslim was a ~terrorist~ wouldn't all non-muslims be long gone? It's stupid af if you consider how many muslims there actually are and how many of them cause trouble. You're putting an entire religion in a nutshell.


RIllll wrote:

Do you even get any news coverage at all? Online/TV/Newspaper?

I read an article of them killing all males older than 10 (assuming brain wash younger ones) - and have the females for... That was a story on thousands in that religious minority town (the name for them escapes me right now).

If you think that is civilized, I seriously question your line of thought. Again, I lost hope.


Can you please learn some more history? Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina were killed twenty years ago due to their belief. Over 8000 men were killed in Srebrenica alone, there were rape camps in Foca etc. Is that civilised because they were muslims?
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Posted 11/8/14
The question isn't about all Muslims but the ones involved in the Islamic state. I mean my city has a lot of Somali refugees and while they can be a bit annoying, I would never call them terrorists, and they're also certainly not involved in ISIL.

Now they're not recognized as a state... So do some research into what is required for it to be recognized. "International law defines sovereign states as having a permanent population, defined territory, one government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states." Now I did find that quote in wikipedia, but it's too late and I'm too tired to really look into it. Now the biggest reason ISIL can't be a sovereign state would be the defined territory. They claim a certain area yes, but none of the countries involved have agreed to change their borders to accommodate them as far as I'm aware.

Also 'capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states'... assuming that means civilly... They don't really have that ability, instead making threats and killing citizens of other countries, making demands. That's why they're called terrorists.

Terrorism is defined as: "1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government."

That's why they're labeled as terrorists. They fit all three definitions, if I understand the situation right. And no, not all Muslims are terrorists, but in the fifteen years, the ones who get the most media coverage have been Muslim. I'm not even sure there have been many other terrorists.

Honestly I was planning on just observing the thread, but from what I've read, no one's chosen to approach it from the actual definitions, which is a shame because that's a big part of it. Now I'm sorry if I didn't make too much sense or I got facts wrong, but well it is 5:30 am and i have a severe migraine. I probably won't respond here, I just wanted to take the discussion a different direction, and I will read any responses for sure. Just do your research as well. It only took me about 5 minutes to look up the two things I did. I'm sure you can find more if you really set your mind to it. And probably from a better source than wikipedia.
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Posted 11/8/14 , edited 11/8/14

My question is...
Why do most countries reject the Islamic State as a State? Because they are operating within other legally recognized states.
Why do we label them terrorists? Let's see a terrorist is one that causes terror, I think slaughtering 100,000's of people, raping and selling off women and girls and burning down houses and pillaging all they can qualifies.

Does the US have a justified reason for involvement? National Security, do we really want a terrorist state existing unchecked so that terrorists have a safe haven to organize attacks. Unlike Iraq (Sadaam wasn't dumb enough to attack the US), ISIS will. This should be an international effort though.

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33 / M / Sydney, Australia
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Posted 11/8/14 , edited 11/8/14


You still have your entire argument based on completely false ideas of Islam. ISIS is a splinter cult. ISIS is an extremist splinter from an extremist splinter.

You completely ignore the fact that you normalise Christianity and Other Islam. You can dislike Christianity all you like, but you still live in a culture that treats it as the norm.



I have all the contempt in the world for all of the Abrahamic religions, but your arguments are couched in falsehood from step 1. False premise means you cannot come to a logical conclusion except by chance.


By the way, the account that video is posted on is full of anti-Islam videos. You seem to be falling victim of a common thought pattern - if a perons commits a crime, that person is a criminal, if a Muslim commits a crime it's because Muslims are criminals.
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26 / M / Pandemonium
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Posted 11/8/14

KurisuSensei
You still have your entire argument based on completely false ideas of Islam. ISIS is a splinter cult. ISIS is an extremist splinter from an extremist splinter.


Here's the thing, though. I do not detest islam because of ISIS. Just like how I don't detest christianity because of the Westboro BC.
Mind you, ISIS and the WBC aren't HELPING... but I'd still hate both religions even if neither of those groups existed. Because the issues of religion is not only contained within the extremist.




KurisuSensei
You completely ignore the fact that you normalise Christianity and Other Islam. You can dislike Christianity all you like, but you still live in a culture that treats it as the norm.


Even if I did, how is that relevant? And also, no. I don't. I live in Scandinavia. Christianity is by no means the norm here.




KurisuSensei
I have all the contempt in the world for all of the Abrahamic religions, but your arguments are couched in falsehood from step 1. False premise means you cannot come to a logical conclusion except by chance.


Alright. Then will you please educate me? And also explain to me how your contempt for the abrahamic religions is any different from mine?




KurisuSensei
By the way, the account that video is posted on is full of anti-Islam videos. You seem to be falling victim of a common thought pattern - if a perons commits a crime, that person is a criminal, if a Muslim commits a crime it's because Muslims are criminals.


Funny thing is, that clip was originally uploaded on islam net's official youtube profile, though it seems to have been removed since.
https://www.youtube.com/user/IslamNetVideo/videos
That's actually where I first saw it. It was linked from islam net's website.
And even if it wasn't, that still doesn't change what's said in the video. So whoever it was that uploaded it is irrelevant.
And no, you're making wild assumptions regarding how I see things. To a rather shocking degree, I might add... I do not at all believe that all muslims are criminals.
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Posted 11/8/14
ISL/ISIS wouldn't exist if the US and friends hadn't invaded Iraq,(based on one big lie). Installed a government hostile to a sizable part population, not used any of the trained military. Why do you think ISL has torn through the place? Soldiers from Saddam's army are leading them.
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33 / M / Sydney, Australia
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Posted 11/8/14



Do you live in Europe? Oh, it appears you do. Your society is based upon Christianity.


You started off with wonderful gems like "mohammed went around killing people", so I don't think I need to educate you. You need to educate you. Islam is no worse than any other religion.
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