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Government Help To The Poor
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Posted 11/13/14
Unless there is a valid reason for someone to be on welfare, I see no reason why an able bodied adult should be on welfare.

I think the government should provide heavily discounted child care for its populace, staffed by people who are qualified and in need of jobs. This would allow more people to have jobs, both in child care and other sectors.
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Posted 11/13/14 , edited 11/13/14
There is more than enough money to go around. Much of it is just being misspent and hoarded by the wealthiest citizens. Any wealthy nation should be taking care of it's poorest citizens. The small amount of fraud that occurs is no excuse to ignore this. Everyone benefits from education. Making education expensive or unavailable is the worst thing a country can do to itself. It may take decades to see the results but everyone will suffer for it eventually.
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23 / M / Saint Charles, Mi...
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Posted 11/13/14
Nope. People are governors of themselves. If, and when, I want to help people in need, I will and want to. But if someone doesn't then they don't do or shouldn't be forced to do it in terms of their tax money. In terms of the US right now (where I live) the Welfare program is just a slow, painful, means to an end, and will not last. It needs painful reform to be successful and sustaining again. I personally don't like the system, especially in this time of very poor economic growth, and job market in the US, the unemployment rate is down, but that's due largely too people exiting the market, and not new jobs being provided. It truly becomes a different story if our house was in order, but a broken system cannot maintain a broken system. And I am not saying capitalistic economics is bad, I feel it is the best way, but over the generations the US political influence has made the system extremely advantageous to everyone, in one way or another. China and Russia are following US 1980s policy, adopting 0% to 5% capital gains tax and creating many jobs, of course in their pseudo communistic system this only provides the creators and upper echelon the dividends. The US needs to readopt these policies, under a libertarian political system, allowing people to make and spend money the way they want too. This allows self-motivation of the job market, "The sky's the limit." Allow people be the person they want, and unfortunately there is not utopia on this Earth, some people will fail, and they won't make it. But then that's where as humans, god-like creations, step in and be the charity. Telling a government, however accountable they are supposed to be, is just "trusting" someone else with your money, and they have their own interests first, and usually, public interest doesn't influence their interest, unless it equals a successful reelection for them.
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22 / M / Portugal
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Posted 11/13/14
Yes, of course every country/nation should benefit from those services. I can't really go deep on this discussion because I don't know much about US and Canada or even other nations but as for Europe and more precisely my country Portugal, who is one of the countries benefited by these services, I can say that we've seen better days. You say people from nations like Africa, Asia and so on have a massive immigration but I should add that an increasing amount of qualified young people are immigrating to countries like Switzerland, Nordic countries or Australia. That says a lot when compared to older times, people used to come to Portugal looking for opportunities, now they're running away. The economic crisis affected Europe badly to be honest, we are recuperating but at a slow pace. We need creating much more jobs for keeping those qualified young people from immigrating. We've lost some benefits on the health care, social security and education which is anything but free. The heavy cost of the school materials is overwhelming to many families, not to talk about universities. Still, I think education is even more expensive in US.

Well, I can't add much more than this. Your point is obviously true, we are better then those countries but in every country all the poor people become even more poor and the rich even more richer. It's just how it works. Also I don't know if that system would fit well in countries like China or Asia. To be honest I'm not seeing that happen in the near future.
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20 / M / CA
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Posted 11/13/14
Hmm, why don't you try exploring San Francisco for a bit and see if your answer will change.
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35 / M
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Posted 11/13/14 , edited 11/13/14

ZodiacA17 wrote:

Nope. People are governors of themselves. If, and when, I want to help people in need, I will and want to.

Yes, theoretically they are, but humans are incredibly short sighted and individually cannot do the same amount as an organization can, which is why anarchism always fails. Libertarianism is a kissing cousin to the epic failure that anarchism is. Also, libertarianism/anarchism requires people to be logical. Second huge strike against it.


ZodiacA17 wrote:

But if someone doesn't then they don't do or shouldn't be forced to do it in terms of their tax money.


Do you like roads? cause... ya pay for them too. That's tax dollars and public works. do you like the fact that you're literate enough to read and write comments on the internet (another government project)? Cause.... that's part of what's being explained by the "social safety net".


ZodiacA17 wrote:

In terms of the US right now (where I live) the Welfare program is just a slow, painful, means to an end, and will not last. It needs painful reform to be successful and sustaining again. I personally don't like the system, especially in this time of very poor economic growth, and job market in the US, the unemployment rate is down, but that's due largely too people exiting the market, and not new jobs being provided. It truly becomes a different story if our house was in order, but a broken system cannot maintain a broken system.


No arguments there...


ZodiacA17 wrote:

China and Russia are following US 1980s policy, adopting 0% to 5% capital gains tax and creating many jobs, of course in their pseudo communistic system this only provides the creators and upper echelon the dividends. The US needs to readopt these policies, under a libertarian political system, allowing people to make and spend money the way they want too.


HOLD THE EFFIN HELL UP!!!
Sorry, but they're adopting policies that bankrupted the poor to benefit the few at the top and these are the plans we should be adopting!?!?!?!?!?!!??!? You know the 80's were marked with the start of a HUGE disparity gap between the wealthy and the poor in this nation, right? And the push for globalization and privatization that left us bankrupt and with everything made overseas, right??? And that we've been doing 30+ years of supply side economics, (aka reaganomics), RIGHT!?!?!?!?!?


ZodiacA17 wrote:

This allows self-motivation of the job market, "The sky's the limit." Allow people be the person they want, and unfortunately there is not utopia on this Earth, some people will fail, and they won't make it.


It's not lack of motiviation. I work 6 different jobs these days because I work for independent business owners (not major coprorations) by people that can't afford to be in the stock market (hence the capital gains tax breaks wouldn't matter to them) because although they struggle, they're the only ones willing to pay me double minimum wage (ie. double what I would get working anywhere corporate), and unfortunately, they can't hire me full time... but damn it they do their best...And I do this all because I'm NOT going to take unemployment checks...Which I admit, in this economy, is easier to just file for than actually get a job. But the unemployment isn't the problem. In NJ it's only 66% of your last previous quarter's averaged paycheck and it last 6 months until they REAAAAAALLLY get up in your business by making you provide names and contacts of places you inquired to (and they soometimes do checkups). It's the lack of decent jobs to start with. I know people taking jobs that only pay a third (1/3) of what they formerly earned just to have a job and work...


ZodiacA17 wrote:

But then that's where as humans, god-like creations, step in and be the charity.


We are far, far, far from being god-like.

And we're not that charitable unless, we at some point, had to take charity. Studies prove it. The poorest people give a larger percentage of the income to help the needy than the wealthy because they have personal experience with the charity in question.


ZodiacA17 wrote:

Telling a government, however accountable they are supposed to be, is just "trusting" someone else with your money, and they have their own interests first, and usually, public interest doesn't influence their interest, unless it equals a successful reelection for them.


Yup.... but at least most governments have a framework of rules and regulations to keep them from just taking the money and running. There's rules and checks and balances that keep them from dong as they please. Democracy is far from perfect, but it's the only system that allows for everyone to get some sort of say on matters. It's much better than just tossing out the rules and saying "you figure it out on your own".

I used to like libertarianism/anarchism when I was your age... Then I studied the groups that tried it. Holy s**t..... you do NOT want to be there.
11808 cr points
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23 / M / Crunchyroll HQ
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Posted 11/13/14
When I mentioned programs I meant it pretty broadly including federal pensions etc. Pensions/social security are very important but we are getting to the point where people are retiring and living for another 20 years. The only real solution to this problem is to raise the retirement age for public sector worker or cut their pension immensely.
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23 / M / Crunchyroll HQ
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Posted 11/13/14
I agree with a lot of the points that you make. The only way make America as great as it once was is to reinstate the policies that go it there.
37321 cr points
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23 / M / Saint Charles, Mi...
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Posted 11/13/14

serifsansserif wrote:


ZodiacA17 wrote:

Nope. People are governors of themselves. If, and when, I want to help people in need, I will and want to.

Yes, theoretically they are, but humans are incredibly short sighted and individually cannot do the same amount as an organization can, which is why anarchism always fails. Libertarianism is a kissing cousin to the epic failure that anarchism is. Also, libertarianism/anarchism requires people to be logical. Second huge strike against it.


ZodiacA17 wrote:

But if someone doesn't then they don't do or shouldn't be forced to do it in terms of their tax money.


Do you like roads? cause... ya pay for them too. That's tax dollars and public works. do you like the fact that you're literate enough to read and write comments on the internet (another government project)? Cause.... that's part of what's being explained by the "social safety net".


ZodiacA17 wrote:

In terms of the US right now (where I live) the Welfare program is just a slow, painful, means to an end, and will not last. It needs painful reform to be successful and sustaining again. I personally don't like the system, especially in this time of very poor economic growth, and job market in the US, the unemployment rate is down, but that's due largely too people exiting the market, and not new jobs being provided. It truly becomes a different story if our house was in order, but a broken system cannot maintain a broken system.


No arguments there...


ZodiacA17 wrote:

China and Russia are following US 1980s policy, adopting 0% to 5% capital gains tax and creating many jobs, of course in their pseudo communistic system this only provides the creators and upper echelon the dividends. The US needs to readopt these policies, under a libertarian political system, allowing people to make and spend money the way they want too.


HOLD THE EFFIN HELL UP!!!
Sorry, but they're adopting policies that bankrupted the poor to benefit the few at the top and these are the plans we should be adopting!?!?!?!?!?!!??!? You know the 80's were marked with the start of a HUGE disparity gap between the wealthy and the poor in this nation, right? And the push for globalization and privatization that left us bankrupt and with everything made overseas, right??? And that we've been doing 30+ years of supply side economics, (aka reaganomics), RIGHT!?!?!?!?!?


ZodiacA17 wrote:

This allows self-motivation of the job market, "The sky's the limit." Allow people be the person they want, and unfortunately there is not utopia on this Earth, some people will fail, and they won't make it.


It's not lack of motiviation. I work 6 different jobs these days because I work for independent business owners (not major coprorations) by people that can't afford to be in the stock market (hence the capital gains tax breaks wouldn't matter to them) because although they struggle, they're the only ones willing to pay me double minimum wage (ie. double what I would get working anywhere corporate), and unfortunately, they can't hire me full time... but damn it they do their best...And I do this all because I'm NOT going to take unemployment checks...Which I admit, in this economy, is easier to just file for than actually get a job. But the unemployment isn't the problem. In NJ it's only 66% of your last previous quarter's averaged paycheck and it last 6 months until they REAAAAAALLLY get up in your business by making you provide names and contacts of places you inquired to (and they soometimes do checkups). It's the lack of decent jobs to start with. I know people taking jobs that only pay a third (1/3) of what they formerly earned just to have a job and work...


ZodiacA17 wrote:

But then that's where as humans, god-like creations, step in and be the charity.


We are far, far, far from being god-like.

And we're not that charitable unless, we at some point, had to take charity. Studies prove it. The poorest people give a larger percentage of the income to help the needy than the wealthy because they have personal experience with the charity in question.


ZodiacA17 wrote:

Telling a government, however accountable they are supposed to be, is just "trusting" someone else with your money, and they have their own interests first, and usually, public interest doesn't influence their interest, unless it equals a successful reelection for them.


Yup.... but at least most governments have a framework of rules and regulations to keep them from just taking the money and running. There's rules and checks and balances that keep them from dong as they please. Democracy is far from perfect, but it's the only system that allows for everyone to get some sort of say on matters. It's much better than just tossing out the rules and saying "you figure it out on your own".

I used to like libertarianism/anarchism when I was your age... Then I studied the groups that tried it. Holy s**t..... you do NOT want to be there.


Do not declare what I am or how you relate to me. You know nothing of me but my surface. On that note, I mention nothing of anarchism, that is a stigma you applied to me yourself. You know what means nothing to nobody on this planet? Your or my opinions. The OP asked this forum, so I answered, somewhat briefly, with my opinion. And instead of being quiet, or happy, that you gave your own. You cringed and retaliated because you disagree with me. Why does that matter? If you got one thing out of my post, that isn't your perceived version of my words, it should be 'Mind your business.' The first motto of the United States of America. I do not give a damn about what you think. If I did I would have asked you. I do give damn now, because of just agreeing to disagree, you had to break apart what I said and argue with most of it. To what end? Why? Mind your business. Take care of your house before criticizing others' houses. We were created in God's image, with free will given to us, and humans can and will fail. But we have freedom because of that. And that's how I want to live. In my state, there is a tax for roads incorporated into a sales tax, but they also charge a "tax" in the form of a license for both me and my vehicles. Meaning I am paying at least three times for the same thing. I have been blessed to be a part owner in a company, and that is a very stressful position. I see the money flow into the government, our employees, suppliers, etc, etc. We pay $3.00 over minimum wage of our state, or we did. Until the "Affordable Care Act" increased our health rates so much we could not afford employees, it is just the owner-operators now. I personally operate manufacturing and shipping of our company, just as I did when I oversaw four people doing the jobs I now do alone. You believe and act as you want to. Just as you, my experience guides my decisions, and my experience shows me that the direction the United States is heading is wrong. And I feel it needs to be reversed, and it will be painful to undo, but the opportunity for prosperity that will come will be worth it, but that does not mean people will receive prosperity. Now you know a little about me besides the surface. We used God to build this nation, and I believe he will be used to save it from its people and itself.Our rules, and morals, must be based in judeo christian principles, were people are self governing for themselves and for those who are not. We will take care of ourselves, and those who cannot take care of themselves. This Republic, not Democracy, is corrupted but can be fixed if we have members of its representatives who believe that a higher standard other than themselves can accomplish the good of the people. The federal government of the United States had two roles when it was formed. To protect the union of the states and to ensure that the states themselves could conduct business. Not to regulate and oversee each individual of the union. The problems this country faces are rooted in the government several generations, which is why it will be painful to undo. But that isn't a call for anarchism, or complete libertarianism to just ignore the law. It is possible to fix the system the way it is because the system is broad, but direct. God will save us, I know that much, but I do not know when. Believe what you want, about this, my God, your God, no God, king or country, politics and charity, but that is a summary of what I believe and why. But above all of that, don't take your rights for granted.
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Posted 11/13/14 , edited 11/13/14
The main thing to keep in mind is that a social safety net just makes good social and economic sense. Food distribution programs have been empirically shown to generate economic activity and provide benefits that the private sector is not capable of matching, unemployment insurance prevents downward pressure on the economy exerted by underemployment (which is, by the way, a reason why 'get a job as soon as possible' policies attached to unemployment are counterproductive), freely accessible healthcare vastly improves public health and healthcare outcomes while reducing the net societal cost of provision of these benefits, and tuition-free tertiary education guarantees that upward socioeconomic mobility cannot have a price tag affixed to it and is offered universally and on the basis of merit (which is what the US pretends its tertiary education system is already presently doing).

If you want to live in a society where people are starving to death and economic activity is lower than it could be, a society where underemployment drives unskilled laborers into unemployment, poverty, and ultimately the aforementioned starvation, where deaths and diseases which could've been easily prevented are allowed anyway and healthcare becomes more expensive besides, and where upward social mobility comes with a price tag and is based on luck far more than ability or merit, then go ahead: destroy the welfare state.
Posted 11/13/14

Some of the people in here need to watch A Christmas Story.
35037 cr points
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F
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Posted 11/13/14

Sarah_Blight wrote:


Some of the people in here need to watch A Christmas Story.


I think you mean Dickens' A Christmas Carol, but the point has come through regardless.
Posted 11/13/14

BlueOni wrote:


Sarah_Blight wrote:


Some of the people in here need to watch A Christmas Story.


I think you mean Dickens' A Christmas Carol, bujavascript:void(0)t the point has come through regardless.


yes.
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26 / M / Socal
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Posted 11/13/14 , edited 11/13/14
1. Should all nations provide a "social safety net" and free education for its people?

Government should help it's people but it's like how far should it go. Too much government is bad and no government is bad too. And in the end nothing is free, someone is footing the bill.

My stance is that
I'm against more government, well specifically bureaucracies -- the administrative system governing any large institution.

The "abuse" of the system that people mention is the failure of these bureaucracies. We fix bureaucracies and make them better or just come up with something new, that should fix the abuse and it should get the help that people need.
Posted 11/13/14
Nothing wrong with providing help. Shit happens and it sure would be great to get that assistance in times like that, but a strict system should be established so as not to allow people to just take advantage of it.
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