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Government Help To The Poor
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Posted 11/13/14
i used to work for a non-profit and our mission was to help people help themselves rather than just giving them free stuff. that said there's obviously times when even someone who's trying can't make ends meet (think, family in which parent gets laid off, children without any support, that kind of thing), and they need help. but i really think it should be more of a community thing rather than a government thing. i'm thinking of food, clothes, shelter, etc. as for healthcare, doctors make a killing, why can't they donate some of their services to those in need in their own backyard?

haha. that's a good one they have to go to some third-world country for that.
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Posted 11/13/14
You get the government you pay for....

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ZodiacA17 wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:


ZodiacA17 wrote:

Nope. People are governors of themselves. If, and when, I want to help people in need, I will and want to.

Yes, theoretically they are, but humans are incredibly short sighted and individually cannot do the same amount as an organization can, which is why anarchism always fails. Libertarianism is a kissing cousin to the epic failure that anarchism is. Also, libertarianism/anarchism requires people to be logical. Second huge strike against it.


ZodiacA17 wrote:

But if someone doesn't then they don't do or shouldn't be forced to do it in terms of their tax money.


Do you like roads? cause... ya pay for them too. That's tax dollars and public works. do you like the fact that you're literate enough to read and write comments on the internet (another government project)? Cause.... that's part of what's being explained by the "social safety net".


ZodiacA17 wrote:

In terms of the US right now (where I live) the Welfare program is just a slow, painful, means to an end, and will not last. It needs painful reform to be successful and sustaining again. I personally don't like the system, especially in this time of very poor economic growth, and job market in the US, the unemployment rate is down, but that's due largely too people exiting the market, and not new jobs being provided. It truly becomes a different story if our house was in order, but a broken system cannot maintain a broken system.


No arguments there...


ZodiacA17 wrote:

China and Russia are following US 1980s policy, adopting 0% to 5% capital gains tax and creating many jobs, of course in their pseudo communistic system this only provides the creators and upper echelon the dividends. The US needs to readopt these policies, under a libertarian political system, allowing people to make and spend money the way they want too.


HOLD THE EFFIN HELL UP!!!
Sorry, but they're adopting policies that bankrupted the poor to benefit the few at the top and these are the plans we should be adopting!?!?!?!?!?!!??!? You know the 80's were marked with the start of a HUGE disparity gap between the wealthy and the poor in this nation, right? And the push for globalization and privatization that left us bankrupt and with everything made overseas, right??? And that we've been doing 30+ years of supply side economics, (aka reaganomics), RIGHT!?!?!?!?!?


ZodiacA17 wrote:

This allows self-motivation of the job market, "The sky's the limit." Allow people be the person they want, and unfortunately there is not utopia on this Earth, some people will fail, and they won't make it.


It's not lack of motiviation. I work 6 different jobs these days because I work for independent business owners (not major coprorations) by people that can't afford to be in the stock market (hence the capital gains tax breaks wouldn't matter to them) because although they struggle, they're the only ones willing to pay me double minimum wage (ie. double what I would get working anywhere corporate), and unfortunately, they can't hire me full time... but damn it they do their best...And I do this all because I'm NOT going to take unemployment checks...Which I admit, in this economy, is easier to just file for than actually get a job. But the unemployment isn't the problem. In NJ it's only 66% of your last previous quarter's averaged paycheck and it last 6 months until they REAAAAAALLLY get up in your business by making you provide names and contacts of places you inquired to (and they soometimes do checkups). It's the lack of decent jobs to start with. I know people taking jobs that only pay a third (1/3) of what they formerly earned just to have a job and work...


ZodiacA17 wrote:

But then that's where as humans, god-like creations, step in and be the charity.


We are far, far, far from being god-like.

And we're not that charitable unless, we at some point, had to take charity. Studies prove it. The poorest people give a larger percentage of the income to help the needy than the wealthy because they have personal experience with the charity in question.


ZodiacA17 wrote:

Telling a government, however accountable they are supposed to be, is just "trusting" someone else with your money, and they have their own interests first, and usually, public interest doesn't influence their interest, unless it equals a successful reelection for them.


Yup.... but at least most governments have a framework of rules and regulations to keep them from just taking the money and running. There's rules and checks and balances that keep them from dong as they please. Democracy is far from perfect, but it's the only system that allows for everyone to get some sort of say on matters. It's much better than just tossing out the rules and saying "you figure it out on your own".

I used to like libertarianism/anarchism when I was your age... Then I studied the groups that tried it. Holy s**t..... you do NOT want to be there.


Do not declare what I am or how you relate to me. You know nothing of me but my surface. On that note, I mention nothing of anarchism, that is a stigma you applied to me yourself. You know what means nothing to nobody on this planet? Your or my opinions. The OP asked this forum, so I answered, somewhat briefly, with my opinion. And instead of being quiet, or happy, that you gave your own. You cringed and retaliated because you disagree with me. Why does that matter? If you got one thing out of my post, that isn't your perceived version of my words, it should be 'Mind your business.' The first motto of the United States of America. I do not give a damn about what you think. If I did I would have asked you. I do give damn now, because of just agreeing to disagree, you had to break apart what I said and argue with most of it. To what end? Why? Mind your business. Take care of your house before criticizing others' houses. We were created in God's image, with free will given to us, and humans can and will fail. But we have freedom because of that. And that's how I want to live. In my state, there is a tax for roads incorporated into a sales tax, but they also charge a "tax" in the form of a license for both me and my vehicles. Meaning I am paying at least three times for the same thing. I have been blessed to be a part owner in a company, and that is a very stressful position. I see the money flow into the government, our employees, suppliers, etc, etc. We pay $3.00 over minimum wage of our state, or we did. Until the "Affordable Care Act" increased our health rates so much we could not afford employees, it is just the owner-operators now. I personally operate manufacturing and shipping of our company, just as I did when I oversaw four people doing the jobs I now do alone. You believe and act as you want to. Just as you, my experience guides my decisions, and my experience shows me that the direction the United States is heading is wrong. And I feel it needs to be reversed, and it will be painful to undo, but the opportunity for prosperity that will come will be worth it, but that does not mean people will receive prosperity. Now you know a little about me besides the surface. We used God to build this nation, and I believe he will be used to save it from its people and itself.Our rules, and morals, must be based in judeo christian principles, were people are self governing for themselves and for those who are not. We will take care of ourselves, and those who cannot take care of themselves. This Republic, not Democracy, is corrupted but can be fixed if we have members of its representatives who believe that a higher standard other than themselves can accomplish the good of the people. The federal government of the United States had two roles when it was formed. To protect the union of the states and to ensure that the states themselves could conduct business. Not to regulate and oversee each individual of the union. The problems this country faces are rooted in the government several generations, which is why it will be painful to undo. But that isn't a call for anarchism, or complete libertarianism to just ignore the law. It is possible to fix the system the way it is because the system is broad, but direct. God will save us, I know that much, but I do not know when. Believe what you want, about this, my God, your God, no God, king or country, politics and charity, but that is a summary of what I believe and why. But above all of that, don't take your rights for granted.


You're right. I got defensive, and for that I'm sorry.

And if god shall move me, than I have to say:

"They brought one. And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" And they said to Him, "Caesar's." And Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him" - Mark 16 and 17

So I make sure to pay my taxes.

"He who oppresses the poor to make more for himself Or who gives to the rich, will only come to poverty." - Proverbs 22:16
"A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent. Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury; for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on." - Mark 12:42-44

So I give whatever I can to those I see in need.

I dunno about your god, but mine's a socialist hippie.
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Posted 11/13/14

serifsansserif wrote:


ZodiacA17 wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:


ZodiacA17 wrote:

Nope. People are governors of themselves. If, and when, I want to help people in need, I will and want to.

Yes, theoretically they are, but humans are incredibly short sighted and individually cannot do the same amount as an organization can, which is why anarchism always fails. Libertarianism is a kissing cousin to the epic failure that anarchism is. Also, libertarianism/anarchism requires people to be logical. Second huge strike against it.


ZodiacA17 wrote:

But if someone doesn't then they don't do or shouldn't be forced to do it in terms of their tax money.


Do you like roads? cause... ya pay for them too. That's tax dollars and public works. do you like the fact that you're literate enough to read and write comments on the internet (another government project)? Cause.... that's part of what's being explained by the "social safety net".


ZodiacA17 wrote:

In terms of the US right now (where I live) the Welfare program is just a slow, painful, means to an end, and will not last. It needs painful reform to be successful and sustaining again. I personally don't like the system, especially in this time of very poor economic growth, and job market in the US, the unemployment rate is down, but that's due largely too people exiting the market, and not new jobs being provided. It truly becomes a different story if our house was in order, but a broken system cannot maintain a broken system.


No arguments there...


ZodiacA17 wrote:

China and Russia are following US 1980s policy, adopting 0% to 5% capital gains tax and creating many jobs, of course in their pseudo communistic system this only provides the creators and upper echelon the dividends. The US needs to readopt these policies, under a libertarian political system, allowing people to make and spend money the way they want too.


HOLD THE EFFIN HELL UP!!!
Sorry, but they're adopting policies that bankrupted the poor to benefit the few at the top and these are the plans we should be adopting!?!?!?!?!?!!??!? You know the 80's were marked with the start of a HUGE disparity gap between the wealthy and the poor in this nation, right? And the push for globalization and privatization that left us bankrupt and with everything made overseas, right??? And that we've been doing 30+ years of supply side economics, (aka reaganomics), RIGHT!?!?!?!?!?


ZodiacA17 wrote:

This allows self-motivation of the job market, "The sky's the limit." Allow people be the person they want, and unfortunately there is not utopia on this Earth, some people will fail, and they won't make it.


It's not lack of motiviation. I work 6 different jobs these days because I work for independent business owners (not major coprorations) by people that can't afford to be in the stock market (hence the capital gains tax breaks wouldn't matter to them) because although they struggle, they're the only ones willing to pay me double minimum wage (ie. double what I would get working anywhere corporate), and unfortunately, they can't hire me full time... but damn it they do their best...And I do this all because I'm NOT going to take unemployment checks...Which I admit, in this economy, is easier to just file for than actually get a job. But the unemployment isn't the problem. In NJ it's only 66% of your last previous quarter's averaged paycheck and it last 6 months until they REAAAAAALLLY get up in your business by making you provide names and contacts of places you inquired to (and they soometimes do checkups). It's the lack of decent jobs to start with. I know people taking jobs that only pay a third (1/3) of what they formerly earned just to have a job and work...


ZodiacA17 wrote:

But then that's where as humans, god-like creations, step in and be the charity.


We are far, far, far from being god-like.

And we're not that charitable unless, we at some point, had to take charity. Studies prove it. The poorest people give a larger percentage of the income to help the needy than the wealthy because they have personal experience with the charity in question.


ZodiacA17 wrote:

Telling a government, however accountable they are supposed to be, is just "trusting" someone else with your money, and they have their own interests first, and usually, public interest doesn't influence their interest, unless it equals a successful reelection for them.


Yup.... but at least most governments have a framework of rules and regulations to keep them from just taking the money and running. There's rules and checks and balances that keep them from dong as they please. Democracy is far from perfect, but it's the only system that allows for everyone to get some sort of say on matters. It's much better than just tossing out the rules and saying "you figure it out on your own".

I used to like libertarianism/anarchism when I was your age... Then I studied the groups that tried it. Holy s**t..... you do NOT want to be there.


Do not declare what I am or how you relate to me. You know nothing of me but my surface. On that note, I mention nothing of anarchism, that is a stigma you applied to me yourself. You know what means nothing to nobody on this planet? Your or my opinions. The OP asked this forum, so I answered, somewhat briefly, with my opinion. And instead of being quiet, or happy, that you gave your own. You cringed and retaliated because you disagree with me. Why does that matter? If you got one thing out of my post, that isn't your perceived version of my words, it should be 'Mind your business.' The first motto of the United States of America. I do not give a damn about what you think. If I did I would have asked you. I do give damn now, because of just agreeing to disagree, you had to break apart what I said and argue with most of it. To what end? Why? Mind your business. Take care of your house before criticizing others' houses. We were created in God's image, with free will given to us, and humans can and will fail. But we have freedom because of that. And that's how I want to live. In my state, there is a tax for roads incorporated into a sales tax, but they also charge a "tax" in the form of a license for both me and my vehicles. Meaning I am paying at least three times for the same thing. I have been blessed to be a part owner in a company, and that is a very stressful position. I see the money flow into the government, our employees, suppliers, etc, etc. We pay $3.00 over minimum wage of our state, or we did. Until the "Affordable Care Act" increased our health rates so much we could not afford employees, it is just the owner-operators now. I personally operate manufacturing and shipping of our company, just as I did when I oversaw four people doing the jobs I now do alone. You believe and act as you want to. Just as you, my experience guides my decisions, and my experience shows me that the direction the United States is heading is wrong. And I feel it needs to be reversed, and it will be painful to undo, but the opportunity for prosperity that will come will be worth it, but that does not mean people will receive prosperity. Now you know a little about me besides the surface. We used God to build this nation, and I believe he will be used to save it from its people and itself.Our rules, and morals, must be based in judeo christian principles, were people are self governing for themselves and for those who are not. We will take care of ourselves, and those who cannot take care of themselves. This Republic, not Democracy, is corrupted but can be fixed if we have members of its representatives who believe that a higher standard other than themselves can accomplish the good of the people. The federal government of the United States had two roles when it was formed. To protect the union of the states and to ensure that the states themselves could conduct business. Not to regulate and oversee each individual of the union. The problems this country faces are rooted in the government several generations, which is why it will be painful to undo. But that isn't a call for anarchism, or complete libertarianism to just ignore the law. It is possible to fix the system the way it is because the system is broad, but direct. God will save us, I know that much, but I do not know when. Believe what you want, about this, my God, your God, no God, king or country, politics and charity, but that is a summary of what I believe and why. But above all of that, don't take your rights for granted.


You're right. I got defensive, and for that I'm sorry.

And if god shall move me, than I have to say:

"They brought one. And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" And they said to Him, "Caesar's." And Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him" - Mark 16 and 17

So I make sure to pay my taxes.

"He who oppresses the poor to make more for himself Or who gives to the rich, will only come to poverty." - Proverbs 22:16
"A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent. Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury; for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on." - Mark 12:42-44

So I give whatever I can to those I see in need.

I dunno about your god, but mine's a socialist hippie.


Jesus choose to help all those he did, he did not pay Caesar's Public health system and let it trickle down to each person he passed. That is all I pointing out. Let me help those in need, don't take my money, and give thirty cents on the dollar back to those in need. And as far as rendering unto Caesar, I do, I follow all of the rules, there isn't a reason not to, yet, but I hope there will never will be. But all of this around me, isn't Caesar's it is all of ours. There are lessons that need to be learned from the Bible but they need to be applied in a timely way as well. I am a Godly man, but I won't pretend to know every verse, I know some, especially those that I reflect onto because of current situations, but God was not a government. I am a Constitutionalist, I believe we follow the laws and rules of our founders and forefathers, and that we individually are responsible to fill that gap.
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Posted 11/13/14

Flazedge wrote:

Hmm, why don't you try exploring San Francisco for a bit and see if your answer will change.



Not sure if you were directing this at me, but I live in The City, so...yeah, that's why I feel that able bodied adults should work if they want welfare.
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Posted 11/13/14
I tried reading the bible once or twice. Meaning I tried to read it end to end. I got somewhere through exodus and had to skip around. Proverbs is nice but you can't read them all at once. Job is a fantastic book. then there's the new testament. The gospels are tantamout to me. they aren't the letters of Paul. They aren't the stories passed around by someone to convince them to convert. They aren't the tall tales presented in Acts. They read like a magic trick unfolding. they're potent with meaning...

and through it all, Jesus doesn't have a lot of kind things to say to his followers. It's instead a LOT of criticism. And for it all he tells them that the money is unimportant. Heaven itself is unimportant. The most important thing is love. the second most important thing is to give. I'm nondemoninational, (it's a bit more complicated than that but it' the easiest to say). but throughout all of christianity's factions, those but faith are the central tenets of the religion. And that bit about Caesar? He's saying the money isn't really ours to begin with. There are sooooo many passages about him telling his disciples to give literally EVERYTHING they own away when asked. Even I don't quite go that far, but I do recognize what it is saying and implying. Nothing earthly is ours to keep and it's best not to be attached to it. Our job's to use what we have to help those we can.

The world our forefathers lived in isn't the world we live in now, and for that, a lot of things need to be added or changed. back then, hell, even printing paper money was technically unconstitutional until the civil war. Slavery was legal. Heroin and worse being marketed as "miracle cure alls" was legal until the 1900's.. and until Upton Sinclair wrote "The Jungle" (which was actually supposed to be able worker's rights), you don't even WANT to know what could be sold as "food". The book was so disgusting in its descriptions that people forgot about the workers and immediately demanded that something be done to ensure they were actually eating pork when they bought pork.

I'm not saying that there isn't a lot of bureaucracy going on in the government. Totally can stand with you on that. But the government does a LOT of good. But "trickle down" through the government? it's funny you choose those words. "Reaganomics" of the 80's also went by the name of "trickle down economics", meaning if you let the wealthy have all the money they want, EVENTUALLY they'll let it trickle down to the poor...

But it never happened, and it never worked.

Meanwhile, Europe and elsewhere may be getting their economic asskicking of the past 50 years, but they're holding out a lot better than we are. Look at the comments here. The non-US commenters are all saying they're happy to have those services, and that they actually make them better workers. And that's something I stand behind as well. I'm not for just giving things away for no reason. I want healthy workers so they work. I want them paid well so they buy their stuff from me. I want them to retire on their own money (Social Security) so I don't have to keep employing someone who's past their prime or just working for the sake of making me pay for their health insurance.. These policies just make economic sense.
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31 / M / Bellingham WA, USA
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Posted 11/13/14 , edited 11/13/14
Here's a story: I know a girl who doesn't work and is completely provided for by her parents. They aren't wealthy but they pay for her rent and they pay for her food. She lives with her boyfriend (who also doesn't work) along with another couple of room mates.

A source of contention in their relationship is that she sometimes stocks their apartment with food paid for by her parents instead of purely using food stamps to do it. This guy is so into the culture of the social safety net that he actually gets angry at his girlfriend for not using it.

Also, these are able bodied people in their mid-20's.

Suffice to say I sometimes worry a bit about the future.
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100 / M / CALIFORNIA woop woop
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Posted 11/13/14
Government should provide public works and education (whether child or adult) . Education should be free. But the whole welfare stuff is stupid and instead of helping people, which in paper it does, it just makes more people dependent and lazy. F all that.
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Posted 11/13/14 , edited 11/13/14

Sarah_Blight wrote:


Some of the people in here need to watch A Christmas Story.


That would be a nice way to put it, needless to say. lol.
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Posted 11/14/14
Unlikely to happen, unless they're like Robin Hood.
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21 / M / Vancouver
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Posted 11/14/14
Scandinavia know's what's up. Just look at the World Happiness Report.
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Posted 11/14/14 , edited 11/14/14
Here in the US, we have high unemployment rates. We also have an astounding number of people attempting to enter our country illegally in order to find work and provide for themselves and their families, often with the encouragement of their own native governments which hope to benefit from income sent back by these individuals. I therefore propose a simple swap. We shall enter into international treaty to the effect that we will allow for the legal immigration of anyone wishing to work--but for every eager immigrant whom we accept, his/her nation must take one of our welfare recipients, whose benefits will end upon their arrival into their new country. Countries in question will thus continue to receive income sent home by their native children for familial support, while introducing their new citizens to their own social support systems.

Everyone wins! We get new citizens eager to work. Because these folks immigrated legally, their native countries can expect a much larger inflow of US dollars. And our former citizens finally have a life in which they no longer need to complain about how cheap and unfair US governmental assistance is.

Happies everywhere!

(Just remember that I said "welfare recipients." I did not say social security recipients; medicare/medicaid recipients; veterans; or even pensioners.)
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Posted 11/14/14 , edited 11/14/14

GayAsianBoy wrote:

I agree. Countries that has a really good welfare system tends to have a better standard of life index and lower crime rate.


However, Australia is slowly becoming Americanised, in terms of welfare (and everything else, really), they are abolishing university student loan help, and also you have to wait 6 months to receive a payment if you become unemployed. I don't know if these new laws are in effect yet, but they were in the Budget plans. And people were protesting left + right.


I agree.
I checked the abs and the number of jobs : unemployed is 1:5 making the other 4 search for jobs that don't exist without any aid isn't fair.
Hockey claims the abs is wrong and he is more reliable but I don't know where he gets his information.

The age of pension for my generation is also raised to 10 years past the life expectancy and the age to claim super is following close behind,
making saving funds outside of a glass jar a gamble with a short period to spend the unlikely winnings.
aboriginals and torres strait islanders have an even worse chance of winning with a shorter life expectancy.
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Posted 11/14/14 , edited 11/14/14

bravostribe1015 wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I'm all for it. I never did get why people wanted to take it away. Because some people abuse it? What about the people who need it?


Because opponents of welfare spending don't think "some" people are abusing the system; they believe abuse is much more widespread and the vast majority of welfare recipients are guilty of it.


The logic that everyone who accepts a government handout is lazy serves those who want to justify selfishness. It's funny these same people usually have no problem with state handouts to corporations.

Posted 11/14/14

brookline wrote:

Many people argue that giving welfare payments to poor families encourages people to have more children, which increase the population of poor people. these people also oppose public education, minimum wages, public heath care, social security, and money to the disabled from the government. They feel these programs encourages people to be lazy and have lots of babies.

However, when comparing nations who do provide these programs, like the US, Canada, and Western Europe, to nations that don't, like the African countries, Asian countries, India, and Mexico and South America, the countries that do provide these programs are better off socially and economically. The countries that don't provide these programs are worst off socially and economically. Also people from countries who don't help their poor make up the majority of the immigrants to countries that help it people.

Another thing to point out is that people from nations who do provide these programs, like the US, Canada, and Western Europe do not do mass migrations to other countries.

Another thing to point out is nations who do not have socially programs have a majority of the world's population. Nations that do have social programs have smaller and shrinking populations.

So my question for you is this.

1. Should all nations provide a "social safety net" and free education for its people?


Tell me what you think.



wow, that question threw me off. really, none of the points seem to agree with your question.
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