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Black Pete - Controversial Christmastime Tradition?
Posted 11/15/14 , edited 11/15/14
http://www.buzzfeed.com/davidmack/dutch-police-arrest-60-at-black-pete-festival

As you can see in the link, people have been protesting "Black Pete" in the Netherlands, deeming it incredibly racist and offensive to blacks. This is not a new tradition, but rather a part of the Netherlands culture and tradition for centuries.

However due to the (mostly) immigrants/blacks of the Netherlands, the tradition has come on fire more and more. Blacks feel that it is a proponent of black-face and should be banned.

How do you feel about this? Do you think it is simply tradition and should not be banned, or is it offensive and should be banned?

--

I personally, 100% do not agree with the protests. Yup, you read that right. I don't feel like a country should change its own culture and tradition just to suit new immigrants, or citizens who are not of the traditional race of that country.

Especially as an immigrant (non-white too!), I seriously hate when immigrants go to another country, but want their new home to change for them! If you feel that way, you shouldn't have left your birth country in the first place.

This is not racist to me whatsoever. There is a HUGE difference between painting your face dark and "black face" - a thing which negatively plays up African features in garish ways just to make fun of them (see minstrel shows, exaggerated black stereotypes in old movies, or for something more recent - black face in South Korea etc. etc. - now THESE things ARE racist).

This Black Pete is rooted in tradition, and old Christmastime culture that is fondly looked upon in the Netherlands. I find it sad and highly annoying that people feel the need to strip a country of culture that helps define it just because they don't like it!

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Posted 11/15/14

Especially as an immigrant (non-white too!)
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Posted 11/15/14
I seen this in one of the episodes of the Office. *Dwight Schrute aborts operation black face*
Posted 11/15/14 , edited 11/15/14

SoldierSangria wrote:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/davidmack/dutch-police-arrest-60-at-black-pete-festival

As you can see in the link, people have been protesting "Black Pete" in the Netherlands, deeming it incredibly racist and offensive to blacks. This is not a new tradition, but rather a part of the Netherlands culture and tradition for centuries.

However due to the (mostly) immigrants/blacks of the Netherlands, the tradition has come on fire more and more. Blacks feel that it is a proponent of black-face and should be banned.

How do you feel about this? Do you think it is simply tradition and should not be banned, or is it offensive and should be banned?

--

I personally, 100% do not agree with the protests. Yup, you read that right. I don't feel like a country should change its own culture and tradition just to suit new immigrants, or citizens who are not of the traditional race of that country.

Especially as an immigrant (non-white too!), I seriously hate when immigrants go to another country, but want their new home to change for them! If you feel that way, you shouldn't have left your birth country in the first place.

This is not racist to me whatsoever. There is a HUGE difference between painting your face dark and "black face" - a thing which negatively plays up African features in garish ways just to make fun of them (see minstrel shows, exaggerated black stereotypes in old movies, or for something more recent - black face in South Korea etc. etc. - now THESE things ARE racist).

This Black Pete is rooted in tradition, and old Christmastime culture that is fondly looked upon in the Netherlands. I find it sad and highly annoying that people feel the need to strip a country of culture that helps define it just because they don't like it!



I don't know. Depends on his role as "Santa's side kick". I heard the black face rose out of chimney sweep (Need confirmation) but I feel if it is indeed portraying a dark skin character as being inferior, as most sidekicks are unfortunately, to the main character in certain ways, than I do think people have a good reason to be offended. If he is the comic relief, I'd definitely be offended unless it was chimney sweep.
For example, I disagree with Mormons on the Lamanites issue, mainly because their traditional holy book states that sinful people were given dark skin for their wickedness. It's their tradition, but here I am, offended by it.

Back on topic, I got in trouble for using the word niggardly. Like really.
Posted 11/15/14

cay032692 wrote:


Especially as an immigrant (non-white too!)


Agree or not?
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Posted 11/15/14 , edited 11/15/14
A culture should not change its traditions to please foreigners.

In Mexico we celebrate the Feast of the Three Kings. During the celebration to three men dress up like the Kings and give presents to children.
Tradition says one of the Kings was African so people paint their faces black. People don't view it as racism because that isn't the intent behind it. People do it because they want to honor the man who visted the Infant Jesus.
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Posted 11/15/14

SoldierSangria wrote:


cay032692 wrote:


Especially as an immigrant (non-white too!)


Agree or not?


indifferent, also mainly looking at the backstory of the event, there really isn't anything to be hot and bothered about.
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Posted 11/15/14
"black" as in african descent is not the same as black skin tone.

this is overreacting.
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Posted 11/15/14
I agree that it is ridiculously egotistical to leave your culture, settle into another, and then expect your new home to change to accommodate your worldview. Societies are influenced by their immigrants over time--expectations of immediate change inspire resentment (and, often, oppressive/restrictive legislation).
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Posted 11/15/14
I also think the comments from the people who think that the government is being "insensitive" just.

I have no words... I mean. FFS. I want to just cry myself to sleep.
Posted 11/15/14 , edited 11/15/14

serifsansserif wrote:

"black" as in african descent is not the same as black skin tone.

this is overreacting.


Blackface offends everyone of dark color.
Or should. If you're not, I don't know what to say.
Not that this is blackface. This is....chimney face.

Then again, blackface is by nature only offensive due to its connotations, right?
Posted 11/15/14

moonhawk81 wrote:

I agree that it is ridiculously egotistical to leave your culture, settle into another, and then expect your new home to change to accommodate your worldview. Societies are influenced by their immigrants over time--expectations of immediate change inspire resentment (and, often, oppressive/restrictive legislation).


I like to think that if there were truly a reason for them to be offended I would hopefully think that the Danes would change their ways. I don't think it's that egotistical on some issues (Racism), I think the main problem here is misplaced offense.
Posted 11/15/14

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Blackface offends everyone of dark color.
Or should. If you're not, I don't know what to say.
Not that this is blackface. This is....chimney face.

Then again, blackface is by nature only offensive due to its connotations, right?


Blackface is gross and does 100% seek to make a mockery of Africans, since it always mocks their features (among other things) in hideous ways. That should never be okay. Unfortunately for example, in some Asian countries it still goes on...Yet yellowface and overly slanted eyes offend them.

>_>
Posted 11/15/14 , edited 11/15/14

SoldierSangria wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Blackface offends everyone of dark color.
Or should. If you're not, I don't know what to say.
Not that this is blackface. This is....chimney face.

Then again, blackface is by nature only offensive due to its connotations, right?


Blackface is gross and does 100% seek to make a mockery of Africans, since it always mocks their features (among other things) in hideous ways. That should never be okay. Unfortunately for example, in some Asian countries it still goes on...Yet yellowface and overly slanted eyes offend them.

>_>


Does black face only encompass those which seek to offend, or all forms? For example, it it blackface for Robert Downey Junior to play a white guy playing as a black guy in tropic thunder?



That's my question here. I added my edit about connotations only due to some instances of people portraying people of darker skintone in a non offensive light, therefore leading me to infer that blackface may not be inherently offensive but only offensive due to its inheritance.
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Posted 11/15/14

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:

"black" as in african descent is not the same as black skin tone.

this is overreacting.


Blackface offends everyone of dark color.
Or should. If you're not, I don't know what to say.
Not that this is blackface. This is....chimney face.

Then again, blackface is by nature only offensive due to its connotations, right?


Then I want every hindu to publicly apologize for the mockery of the black woman by having their goddess Kali being depicted as black. Not only that, but she's also a goddess of death and very violent. I take offense at the connotation of black inferring violence and death. Also because their artwork uses swastikas, and it is the home to the Aryan race, I want them to also apologize to all peoples of jewish decent and immediately remove the offending symbol from all of their artwork and ban its usage henceforth.

Of course I'm being tongue in cheek here, and the danes ARE racist, but you get my point. black as a skin tone in mythology is NOT uncommon and has nothing to do with the overt offensiveness of blackface, which is incredibly offensive and derrogatory to those who do it.

HOWEVER, culturally, there are these bits and pieces everywhere and if you want sensitivity, you also have to be willing to be sensitive, snf more importantly put things into CONTEXT. The protesters are not considering CONTEXT and are overreacting at something that has nothing to do with them
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