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Should he have apologized?
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Posted 11/20/14
As a woman, even I don't understand why his shirt is so "offensive" what about it is objectifying women? I don't see that shirt as misogynistic or sexist. Are you seriously telling me that a sexy woman on a shirt is oppressive and objectifying? So that means that I can't go shop in Victoria Secret for gifts because they're half-naked? Give me a break. I could be wrong but I don't think that this shirt is stopping a woman from getting a job there.

If someone wants to be offended by this shirt, then by all means be offended. But

A. Don't speak for all feminists.
B. Don't demean someone's accomplishments because you were offended.
C. Don't attack someone

This is a stupid thing to nitpick about period. He doesn't deserved to be attacked because his shirt shows a half naked woman. Condemning a man for something like this isn't feminism, and honestly I feel like it belittles the feminist movement. People are condemning this man for wearing a shirt, however if a woman wore it, or one laced with half-naked men it's making a statement. It's small, stupid things like this that give actual feminists a bad rep. There are many more important things that these people can be complaining about.

Do I think he should apologize? That's his choice. I don't believe that he has to, but if he didn't I'm sure the extremest would call for blood.
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Posted 11/20/14 , edited 11/20/14

xDeadlyDollx wrote:

I would just like to point out to you that this man is a scientist; not a business man, not some corporate worker in Wall Street -- an actual scientist who spends most of his days cooped up in some lab, not in meetings trying to impress people. I'm not sure if you know many people in this line of work, but half the time they don't really care about appearances. The ones I know don't even own a suit. It's not important. Have you seen his sleeves? Clearly no one cares for appearances in this field. Heck, my own boss doesn't implement a dress code. I asked him once what he'd do if I showed up to work with pink hair and he said as long as I do the same good job teaching, he didn't care.

And just for your reference: http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/career_magazine/previous_issues/articles/2014_04_24/caredit.a1400104


You've missed the bigger picture if you think I'm arguing that scientists' work environments call for formal dress. Suits aren't necessary and are cumbersome in a laboratory setting, you're right (and I already knew that). But the context of concern to this issue wasn't another ordinary day in a laboratory or classroom, it was an appearance on a nationally syndicated television program (BBC Breakfast) and also on a live stream.

I had previously been mistaken and thought he had worn the shirt to a conference, which is a relatively informal setting generally with no official dress code (but which tends to prefer business casual at least for important visitors like speakers). That's the context I was originally speaking about, though this change in context given a bit deeper research indicates that no change in my expectations is needed. Business casual would've been most appropriate for appearing on BBC Breakfast, and it would've done no harm and posed no significant burden to Dr. Taylor's work if he had worn business casual during his delivery of the ESA live stream (though it would've been less necessary in the latter case). Either way a shirt patterned with women in lingerie and bondage gear is a questionable choice, though a bowling shirt and some jeans in and of themselves probably wouldn't have been a problem for the live stream.


People complained about the shirt because they know they can. They bullied this man to get an apology and prove a (pointless) point. There IS reason to hate "feminists" for this. They have gone too far. It's one thing to be offended personally, it's another to make a big deal out of it and rain on a person's parade just because you feel entitled to. "Feminists" acted in such poor taste regarding this issue and that apology was clearly undeserved. If anything it should be the other way around. In my opinion, these "feminists" owe Dr. Taylor an apology.


Edit:

I think we're more in agreement than we are in disagreement here. The people who were rude and unreasonable with Dr. Taylor engaged in unacceptable behavior, as did the people who viciously reacted to them (the mayor of London compared seething Twitter comments to Marxist-Leninist show trials). Both should stop what they're doing, acknowledge that things got out of hand, and let the situation deflate. Dr. Taylor's more vicious critics should apologize and offer reasoned explanations of their feelings to Dr. Taylor. The vicious critics of more reasonable people who complained about Dr. Taylor's attire should also apologize. The reasonable people on either side owe apologies to no one.

Right?
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AHTL 
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Posted 11/20/14 , edited 11/20/14
Should he have apologized? No.

10 years of scientific work, scientific break-through & history was overshadowed by his choice of wardrobe?

Think about that for a second.

All his work, all of his team's work, all of his female colleagues on the team overshadowed by one shirt. (Does the the harsh critiques of his shirt even know their names?)

A shirt that was made by a female friend as a birthday gift. Do you think the haters are even aware that he promoted a female colleague on twitter the day before they landed on the comet?

There's famously been tweets saying that his shirt is what prevents women from entering STEM. Try to think about that for a second.

How incredible petty doesn't that sound? A shirt prevented a woman from going into STEM.


The only thing the feminists proved when Matt Taylor broke down in tears, is that they just bullied a nerd into submission because they didn't like what he was wearing.

Oh what's that hypocrisy? "Don't judge a woman by what's she is wearing?"

While this was happening, Kim Kardashian showed off herself in a full nudity photography and was applauded for empowering women by objectifying herself... If that doesn't taste like double-standards to you, I don't know what's yellow & blue.


I think Ana Kasparian really sums it up:



It warms my heart to see female journalists rise up to his defence.

The Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/18/feminism-rosetta-scientist-shirt-dapper-laughs-julien-blanc-inequality

The Time
http://time.com/3589392/comet-shirt-storm/
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Posted 11/20/14
Femi-Nazis make a grown man cry because they don't like his ugly shirt that apparently objectifies women by showing half naked women... made by his female friend.

Meanwhile, Kim Kardashian objectified herself by covering half the front page of a magazine with her ass and gets ignored by Femi-Nazis. Why? Because logic.
Posted 11/20/14
it's good that he apologised, shows he's not an arrogant man. and that his intentions weren't malevolent .




as for the shirt itself, i'm not sure if it's sexist or not. i just know it's not an appropriate shirt to wear on Television... it's something you would wear to your friend's BBQ.
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Posted 11/20/14

BlueOni wrote:

You've missed the bigger picture if you think I'm arguing that scientists' work environments call for formal dress. Suits aren't necessary and are cumbersome in a laboratory setting, you're right (and I already knew that). But the context of concern to this issue wasn't another ordinary day in a laboratory or classroom, it was an appearance on a nationally syndicated television program (BBC Breakfast) and also on a live stream.

I had previously been mistaken and thought he had worn the shirt to a conference, which is a relatively informal setting generally with no official dress code (but which tends to prefer business casual at least for important visitors like speakers). That's the context I was originally speaking about, though this change in context given a bit deeper research indicates that no change in my expectations is needed. Business casual would've been most appropriate for appearing on BBC Breakfast, and it would've done no harm and posed no significant burden to Dr. Taylor's work if he had worn business casual during his delivery of the ESA live stream (though it would've been less necessary in the latter case). Either way a shirt patterned with women in lingerie and bondage gear is a questionable choice, though a bowling shirt and some jeans in and of themselves probably wouldn't have been a problem for the live stream.


I don't disagree with you that business casual would have been better to wear, however, in his defense, these days, what he wore, a printed button down shirt (regardless of the subject matter), has been worn by many people doing interviews on TV. The pattern itself, was what made it a bad choice. On the other hand, It was made by a female friend for his birthday. I imagine this friend of his is very dear to him, and, BECAUSE she made it for him, he in his own mind saw nothing wrong with it and probably wore it as a nod to her. It's probably the only time he was or is going to be on TV, and, why not? It's a token of love and care from someone you care very much for. (and from someone who obviously feels very similarly, both by the gift and the staunch defense afterward). I'm not saying it was the best choice, but he didn't deserve this backlash. It's like when the republicans bitch about the color of tie Obama wears, or when he salutes with a coffee cup in hand. Way out of proportion.


BlueOni wrote:

You know, dialogue on this matter is getting ridiculous. That's my biggest problem here: how much this has ballooned in light of crossfire between Dr. Taylor's critics and critics thereof. We have the mayor of London comparing the situation to the show trials under Stalin, Mao, and Kim Il-Sung for God's sake. I, and other reasonable people who simply suggest that Dr. Taylor's choice of clothing was inappropriate given the context and its content, cannot be held accountable for people who say ridiculous things on Twitter any more than you can be held accountable for the mayor of London comparing seething Twitter comments to genocidal dictators ostensibly justifying the murders they're about to commit.

Let's both take a step back, acknowledge that unreasonable people exist no matter what cause they're standing up for, and look at the bigger picture: Dr. Taylor has apologized both to the unreasonable people who didn't really deserve an apology given their rude behavior and the reasonable people who offered him legitimate, adult criticism alike and now wishes to move on with his life. I would like to let him do so, and will join you in sending a glare toward the unreasonable and rude people on either side of this thing. Is that agreeable?


See, this is where it gets complicated. I think you're right, it's getting blown out of context. Unfortunately, it's like this: person makes a fashion faux pas. Angry group jumps on it to push their agenda and ostracize him and the reputable community that he works in for the small faux pas. Then criticism ensues about the original criticism, and rightfully so no longer has anything to do with the original crime, but the judgement cast.. It's very meta.. O.o

And I think the original critics who were outlandish need to be criticized and told that they are being unreasonable and severe. They're hurting themselves more often than not and they need to realize that this sort of vigilante-ism is not tolerable. (especially when they think themselves above the law or not bound by the standards they wish to enact. It's not equality when there's double standards, even if they are the ones that favor you.)
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Posted 11/20/14

AHTL wrote:

Should he have apologized? No.


To the people issuing him rude criticism without any reasoned thought behind it? Not at all. To people who submitted reasoned, adult criticism of his choice of attire without making a circus out of the whole affair? Maybe a "My bad" was warranted for them, don't you think? But that's all it should have been. This thing should have been over in one day and gotten very little attention.


10 years of scientific work, scientific break-through & history was overshadowed by his choice of wardrobe?

Think about that for a second.

All his work, all of his team's work, all of his female colleagues on the team overshadowed by one shirt. (Does the the harsh critiques of his shirt even know their names?)

A shirt that was made by a female friend as a birthday gift. Do you think the haters are even aware that he promoted a female colleague on twitter the day before they landed on the comet?

There's famously been tweets saying that his shirt is what prevents women from entering STEM. Try to think about that for a second.

How incredible petty doesn't that sound? A shirt prevented a woman from going into STEM.


It is indeed a tragedy that this has exploded to the proportion it has. I'm not so sure it's totally unreasonable to say that his shirt risked sending a negative message, but I am completely on board with the stance that it's unreasonable to suggest that the shirt could divert someone's course from entry into the STEM track all on its own. That's just hyperbole. It's also unreasonable to suggest that sending a negative message to women was Dr. Taylor's intention; it clearly wasn't. It demonstrably wasn't.


The only thing the feminists proved when Matt Taylor broke down in tears, is that they just bullied a nerd into submission because they didn't like what he was wearing.


As long as you're mentally distinguishing reasonable critics from people who made this thing a circus when you say "the feminists", I'll agree completely.


Oh what's that hypocrisy? "Don't judge a woman by what's she is wearing?"

While this was happening, Kim Kardashian showed off herself in a full nudity photography and was applauded for empowering women by objectifying herself... If that doesn't taste like double-standards to you, I don't know what's yellow & blue.


We could get into a debate about whether these are comparable, but I'd rather dig to your main point and acknowledge it as true: sexual imagery involving women isn't inherently misogynist. My problem with the shirt is merely one of context and how that context can alter the message the imagery sends to the viewer. The shirt itself is harmless, and I'm absolutely certain Dr. Taylor meant no harm in wearing it. I'm not angry at him at all, though I criticize his decision to wear that shirt in the context he did as a careless one.
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Posted 11/20/14
I don't think he had to apologize for that. It's good he did though, because the whole situation would be ten times worse if he didn't. Though, this kind of thing really irritates me, because I'm pretty sure feminism isn't suppose to be bitching about stupid things like a shirt and claiming that it's sexist. Shouldn't feminists try to solve more serious problems like the lack of education in certain places, lower pay, etc?
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Posted 11/20/14

sasarahsept wrote:

I don't think he had to apologize for that. It's good he did though, because the whole situation would be ten times worse if he didn't. Though, this kind of thing really irritates me, because I'm pretty sure feminism isn't suppose to be bitching about stupid things like a shirt and claiming that it's sexist. Shouldn't feminists try to solve more serious problems like the lack of education in certain places, lower pay, etc?


You've spoken much wisdom in this. There are more important things, and this really should've been a small matter resolved over the course of a day and quickly forgotten.


serifsansserif wrote:

I don't disagree with you that business casual would have been better to wear, however, in his defense, these days, what he wore, a printed button down shirt (regardless of the subject matter), has been worn by many people doing interviews on TV. The pattern itself, was what made it a bad choice. On the other hand, It was made by a female friend for his birthday. I imagine this friend of his is very dear to him, and, BECAUSE she made it for him, he in his own mind saw nothing wrong with it and probably wore it as a nod to her. It's probably the only time he was or is going to be on TV, and, why not? It's a token of love and care from someone you care very much for. (and from someone who obviously feels very similarly, both by the gift and the staunch defense afterward). I'm not saying it was the best choice, but he didn't deserve this backlash. It's like when the republicans bitch about the color of tie Obama wears, or when he salutes with a coffee cup in hand. Way out of proportion.


I think you have the right of it here.


See, this is where it gets complicated. I think you're right, it's getting blown out of context. Unfortunately, it's like this: person makes a fashion faux pas. Angry group jumps on it to push their agenda and ostracize him and the reputable community that he works in for the small faux pas. Then criticism ensues about the original criticism, and rightfully so no longer has anything to do with the original crime, but the judgement cast.. It's very meta.. O.o

And I think the original critics who were outlandish need to be criticized and told that they are being unreasonable and severe. They're hurting themselves more often than not and they need to realize that this sort of vigilante-ism is not tolerable. (especially when they think themselves above the law or not bound by the standards they wish to enact. It's not equality when there's double standards, even if they are the ones that favor you.)


It makes me really long for an alternate reality where he had worn the shirt, people had said "Hey, that's not cool." and he had said "My bad, it was a nod to my buddy since she made this for me." and that had been it. Then we'd be talking about landing on a comet. I mean, we landed on a comet.
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Posted 11/20/14
If it was me, I wouldn't have apologized. I would've said that all the women complaining about shirt that only shows women PARTIALLY nude isn't a big deal and that they should be ashamed of themselves for trying to control what people can wear (in a free country). They don't care about anyone but themselves. Feminism means they stand for equality. They can't use it as an excuse to force their own superiority on others. If a woman showed off her naked body on the cover of a magazine for the whole nation to see, they don't complain. But when a guy wears a shirt showing something not even close to that extent, they accuse of him of declaring war on women all around the world. They can't keep up those double standards. They're the ones who should be apologizing.
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Posted 11/20/14
I don't even care anymore. Lately everything and I mean everything is somehow getting twisted into some weak example of sexism and it's honestly a bother. I don't care about this newfound battle of the sexes; I'll do me, you do you so just shut up already. Makes me hope for a hyper-intelligent dog uprising.
Posted 11/20/14 , edited 11/21/14
This is worst than donglegate.


AHTL wrote:

There's famously been tweets saying that his shirt is what prevents women from entering STEM. Try to think about that for a second.

How incredible petty doesn't that sound? A shirt prevented a woman from going into STEM.



Let's be fair to both sides, but they're not saying it his shirt, they're saying it's the attitude of men in general that prevent women from going into male dominated fields. The shirt if anything is an example. And it's the unfortunate truth in some cases. Not that I think he should really apologize, but I feel you're making a unfair statement.





I'm a bit of a tyro when it comes to stuff like this, but what? Is he suggesting that you can't say you're offended? That it is useless to demand an apology from someone who offended you? That I can freely spout my misgivings about religion wherever I please? I don't understand.
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Posted 11/20/14


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Posted 11/20/14

BlueOni wrote:

[many sensible reasonable things in a variety of posts which I'm not quoting all of


All of which I could easily QFT.

Thank you for trying to get people to understand why this is a legitimate issue, and for doing so in such a reasoned, patient manner.

The narrow sexist views I see too often in these forums (often by people apparently oblivious to how their views are sexist, or by people who simply don't care) appalls me, and I don't have the energy right to do what you are doing. but I want you, and others, to know you aren't alone here and there are some here (like me) who agree with you and get what you are saying.

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Posted 11/20/14 , edited 11/20/14

lorreen wrote:


BlueOni wrote:

[many sensible reasonable things in a variety of posts which I'm not quoting all of


All of which I could easily QFT.

Thank you for trying to get people to understand why this is a legitimate issue, and for doing so in such a reasoned, patient manner.

The narrow sexist views I see too often in these forums (often by people apparently oblivious to how their views are sexist, or by people who simply don't care) appalls me, and I don't have the energy right to do what you are doing. but I want you, and others, to know you aren't alone here and there are some here (like me) who agree with you and get what you are saying.





I think, going forward, it should be remembered the right thing to do is Vote Jibril.


Defeat sexism with sexiness!
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