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Student Dies after Confronting Group of Men Bothering Girls
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

serifsansserif wrote:


But that's the thing. the way it's constantly being phrased, and primarily by other women and some men, it sounds like women are helpless fragile little things that go weak at the knees because someone said "hello"


This isn't Victorian London, but our talk of the "fears" women must face on the streets certainly mimics the same talk.



I don't know what to say. A lot of women are strong and can face adversity very well. But a lot of women also get abused and mistreated by guys. A lot of them can't hold their own against their offenders. It happens a lot. It happens a lot and every day. What am I supposed to do, deny some truths about the world to make some of you on this message board feel better?
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

Iregi wrote:

These are issues EVERYONE faces. That's the point that was being made.



So...you are saying these things are just as bad for men as they are for women? The answer is of course not, and these things are far worse for women than they are for men, taken as a whole.
Posted 11/30/14

Latchan wrote:

I deleted my original reply because I decided I didn't want to have to argue about this, but never mind.

No one's treating you like a fawn. These are real things that women face everyday. Maybe not you, but there are women out there, at universities, in big cities, who are subjected to date rape drugs and catcalling. I don't know why you're insulted by this, as if someone just tried to feed you a fairy tale.


Oh, there is nothing to argue here because I doubt you can change my mind, but feel free to speak yours anyway because it might be amusing.

The only thing I feel like I'm being fed is fear and paranoia.

"Oh, you're a girl. You need to be careful because this, this, and this will happen to you because you're a girl and you can't do anything about it because well, you're a girl."

Well, you know what? The same thing can happen to anyone. A guy can be just as easily drugged or tricked into getting intoxicated at a party. I have also known some cases where a girl has intentionally put holes in condoms or lied about being on the pill so they do get pregnant because they think that that would make a guy stay with them. I have also known of girls who've gotten very aggressive with guys who refuse to sleep with them. Even going as far as to harass them and call them gay.

As I have said before, this issue of harassment and violence is not a gendered issue and should really not be viewed with such skewed lenses. These dangers are dangers we ALL face. Since when did we keep reminding our boys to be careful because they might get shot or caught up in a gang fight or racially profiled by the police? Why is fear and paranoia only fed to girls? That is my biggest problem with this. I feel insulted about the fact that it is so well accepted that women are so helpless that they need not only to be constantly reminded of how scary the world around them is, but also that they probably cannot do anything about any of it themselves. That, to me, is utter bullshit (for lack of a better noun).
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

Iregi wrote:

These are issues EVERYONE faces. That's the point that was being made.


Okay? But that's not what was said. She said she was insulted, because OP pointed out that these are issues that women face. Women face these issues. That is the original point. This is the issue that is being addressed, due to the nature of this thread's original question.

No one ever said guys didn't experience these issues, too. But that's a serious issue that needs to be addressed separately from this. Right now, this is a thread talking about what women face. We can talk about what men face, too, but don't try to invalidate my point by saying "men face these issues, TOO" as if somehow this is any less problematic.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14
@DeadlyDoll: Ironically, the way we treat and raise females ends up feeding these problems and makes them as bad as they are. It kinda creates and sustains the problems. We also discussed this in the class I took.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14
Part of the reason women often get abused and mistreated by many men is how submissive and meek many of them can be, and a lot of women are submissive and meek because this falls so in line with gender constructs and gender norms. It is 2014 and these sort of things have only been seriously challenged in recent years.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

xDeadlyDollx wrote:


Latchan wrote:

I deleted my original reply because I decided I didn't want to have to argue about this, but never mind.

No one's treating you like a fawn. These are real things that women face everyday. Maybe not you, but there are women out there, at universities, in big cities, who are subjected to date rape drugs and catcalling. I don't know why you're insulted by this, as if someone just tried to feed you a fairy tale.


Oh, there is nothing to argue here because I doubt you can change my mind, but feel free to speak yours anyway because it might be amusing.

The only thing I feel like I'm being fed is fear and paranoia.

"Oh, you're a girl. You need to be careful because this, this, and this will happen to you because you're a girl and you can't do anything about it because well, you're a girl."

Well, you know what? The same thing can happen to anyone. A guy can be just as easily drugged or tricked into getting intoxicated at a party. I have also known some cases where a girl has intentionally put holes in condoms or lied about being on the pill so they do get pregnant because they think that that would make a guy stay with them. I have also known of girls who've gotten very aggressive with guys who refuse to sleep with them. Even going as far as to harass them and call them gay.

As I have said before, this issue of harassment and violence is not a gendered issue and should really not be viewed with such skewed lenses. These dangers are dangers we ALL face. Since when did we keep reminding our boys to be careful because they might get shot or caught up in a gang fight or racially profiled by the police? Why is fear and paranoia only fed to girls? That is my biggest problem with this. I feel insulted about the fact that it is so well accepted that women are so helpless that they need not only to be constantly reminded of how scary the world around them is, but also that they probably cannot do anything about any of it themselves. That, to me, is utter bullshit (for lack of a better noun).


What is dangerous is the misconception that sexual harassment against men and sexual harassment against women is the same thing. Sexual harassment is faced by both men and women, but society treats each differently. That's why there are different, gendered safe spaces for this. For example, when men are raped, society doesn't take it seriously. They view male rape as something that doesn't happen, because of poor education and a lack of understanding how human anatomy works. They make fun of men for claiming rape, and verbally harass them for not being "macho" enough.

Women don't have this problem, because most reported rapes are by female victims. What they do face is slut-shaming, being told they were asking for it, etc., and being accused of making false rape allegations.

They are both serious issues, but they need to be addressed in ways that are distinctly different from each other. You can't just lump them together and try to have a broad, neutral understanding of it because we live in a patriarchal society that imagines men as macho, invincible beings and women as promiscuous, manipulative creatures.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

Dubnoman wrote:

Part of the reason women often get abused and mistreated by many men is how submissive and meek many of them can be, and a lot of women are submissive and meek because this falls so in line with gender constructs and gender norms. It is 2014 and these sort of things have only been seriously challenged in recent years.


WHOA. What? Okay, NOW that's going too far. Meek and submissive? What?

That is NOT in fact why most women wind up in abusive relationships. What kind of class did you take here?
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 11/30/14

Latchan wrote:


Dubnoman wrote:

Part of the reason women often get abused and mistreated by many men is how submissive and meek many of them can be, and a lot of women are submissive and meek because this falls so in line with gender constructs and gender norms. It is 2014 and these sort of things have only been seriously challenged in recent years.


WHOA. What? Okay, NOW that's going too far. Meek and submissive? What?

That is NOT in fact why most women wind up in abusive relationships. What kind of class did you take here?



I didn't say most women get abused/mistreated because of that, let me just clarify my idea: (I was just trying to say that) many of them are submissive (or also meek, too) because of social constructs and norms, and it lends to a lot of them being taken advantage of.
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Posted 11/30/14
Saying date rape is worse for a woman than a man is just plain wrong. Most men are way too afraid to ever report being date raped or catcalled or harassed because they'll be called pussies.

There are just as many psychopathic and sociopathic women as there are men. It's just men aren't allowed to talk about it because of society.

Like has been said EVERYONE has to deal with these issues. You just won't see it on CNN.
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Posted 11/30/14

Dubnoman wrote:


Latchan wrote:


Dubnoman wrote:

Part of the reason women often get abused and mistreated by many men is how submissive and meek many of them can be, and a lot of women are submissive and meek because this falls so in line with gender constructs and gender norms. It is 2014 and these sort of things have only been seriously challenged in recent years.


WHOA. What? Okay, NOW that's going too far. Meek and submissive? What?

That is NOT in fact why most women wind up in abusive relationships. What kind of class did you take here?



I didn't say most women get abused/mistreated because of that, let me just clarify my idea: (I was just trying to say that) many of them are submissive (or also meek, too) because of social constructs and norms, and it lends to a lot of them being taken advantage of.


...no, they're not. That's not it at all. I've known women who've been in abusive relationships, and they're not meek and submissive at all. You know how they ended up there? BECAUSE they thought they weren't meek and submissive.

They thought they were anything but. They considered themselves strong, independent women who could never end up in an abusive relationship. So once they ended up there, they didn't really process that it was really happening. They told themselves: "It was a one-time thing. It'll never happen again. He's really sorry about it." But it wasn't a one-time thing, and it kept happening. By the time they started to realize that something was wrong, their partners had already isolated them from their friends and loved ones, and they didn't know who to reach out to in order to find help.
Posted 11/30/14

Latchan wrote:

What is dangerous is the misconception that sexual harassment against men and sexual harassment against women is the same thing. Sexual harassment is faced by both men and women, but society treats each differently. That's why there are different, gendered safe spaces for this. For example, when men are raped, society doesn't take it seriously. They view male rape as something that doesn't happen, because of poor education and a lack of understanding how human anatomy works. They make fun of men for claiming rape, and verbally harass them for not being "macho" enough.

Women don't have this problem, because most reported rapes are by female victims. What they do face is slut-shaming, being told they were asking for it, etc., and being accused of making false rape allegations.

They are both serious issues, but they need to be addressed in ways that are distinctly different from each other. You can't just lump them together and try to have a broad, neutral understanding of it because we live in a patriarchal society that imagines men as macho, invincible beings and women as promiscuous, manipulative creatures.


I don't really know what point you are trying to make now, but I saw 'patriarchal society,' and I'm very interested now to hear what's next. I'm pretty sure this isn't all. You hardly addressed anything I mentioned aside from my examples of some harassment that men face. So yes, continue....

P.S. I don't know if I'm that sleepy, but I swear that what you're trying to say is that male and female sexual harassment are two different things because Patriarchy, that's why we address them differently when in fact, they're really supposed to be treated like that because... Patriarchy?
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Posted 11/30/14

Dubnoman wrote:

@DeadlyDoll: Ironically, the way we treat and raise females ends up feeding these problems and makes them as bad as they are. It kinda creates and sustains the problems. We also discussed this in the class I took.


Which has been my point, and I believe, DeadlyDoll's.

I think the solution is that simply the fears should be recognized when they are legitimate, but, nevertheless, no one should live in fear. There's thousands upon thousands of things to fear. And you know what? I've been a victim of the very same shit she just mentioned. I'm not going to cower and prevent myself from acting or doing something because of it.

I also feel like it's,ironically enough in this case, something women do to other women. It's women in these threads and comments sections that are denouncing men and at the very same time talking about how they feel afraid and powerless to even walk down the street and that it's ALL MEN (the entire gender) that should change to suit these frailties of womanhood, rather than sucking it up, understanding people are assholes (men and women) and dealing with it.

Nothing else can be said. Life fucking sucks. There's NOTHING that's guaranteed. Learn to deal with it, and don't rely on anyone else to change for you. That may not be the meaning to life, but it's its first and most beholden rule.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

xDeadlyDollx wrote:


Latchan wrote:

What is dangerous is the misconception that sexual harassment against men and sexual harassment against women is the same thing. Sexual harassment is faced by both men and women, but society treats each differently. That's why there are different, gendered safe spaces for this. For example, when men are raped, society doesn't take it seriously. They view male rape as something that doesn't happen, because of poor education and a lack of understanding how human anatomy works. They make fun of men for claiming rape, and verbally harass them for not being "macho" enough.

Women don't have this problem, because most reported rapes are by female victims. What they do face is slut-shaming, being told they were asking for it, etc., and being accused of making false rape allegations.

They are both serious issues, but they need to be addressed in ways that are distinctly different from each other. You can't just lump them together and try to have a broad, neutral understanding of it because we live in a patriarchal society that imagines men as macho, invincible beings and women as promiscuous, manipulative creatures.


I don't really know what point you are trying to make now, but I saw 'patriarchal society,' and I'm very interested now to hear what's next. I'm pretty sure this isn't all. You hardly addressed anything I mentioned aside from my examples of some harassment that men face. So yes, continue....

P.S. I don't know if I'm that sleepy, but I swear that what you're trying to say is that male and female sexual harassment are two different things because Patriarchy, that's why we address them differently when in fact, they're really supposed to be treated like that because... Patriarchy?


I didn't address your other points because I agree with them? I'm a woman, too. You were kinda preaching to the choir.

They are two different things. Yes, because patriarchy. I know "patriarchy" is a trigger word, like when someone accuses someone of being "communist" or "fascist" and throws around the word just because they can--but I know the definitions of all of these words. I am using it in the correct context.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

Iregi wrote:

Saying date rape is worse for a woman than a man is just plain wrong. Most men are way too afraid to ever report being date raped or catcalled or harassed because they'll be called pussies.

There are just as many psychopathic and sociopathic women as there are men. It's just men aren't allowed to talk about it because of society.

Like has been said EVERYONE has to deal with these issues. You just won't see it on CNN.



I meant it is worse for women in terms of it being more prevalent (occurring more often). I believe that things like women drugging men, women raping men, etc., happen less than the opposite of these. I believe that and maybe they are almost equal in occurrences, but I'd be surprised to find out that was true if it was true. You are right, if a guy gets raped/experiences date rape, they can suffer a lot from it, too.


Latchan wrote:

...no, they're not. That's not it at all. I've known women who've been in abusive relationships, and they're not meek and submissive at all. You know how they ended up there? BECAUSE they thought they weren't meek and submissive.

They thought they were anything but. They considered themselves strong, independent women who could never end up in an abusive relationship. So once they ended up there, they didn't really process that it was really happening. They told themselves: "It was a one-time thing. It'll never happen again. He's really sorry about it." But it wasn't a one-time thing, and it kept happening. By the time they started to realize that something was wrong, their partners had already isolated them from their friends and loved ones, and they didn't know who to reach out to in order to find help.



Well, I take your word for these things. I have some views and opinions on the subject, but I would like to learn from others, so my views and opinions are being influenced or even changing. That is a part of meaningful discussions on forums.
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