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Student Dies after Confronting Group of Men Bothering Girls
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Posted 11/30/14

xDeadlyDollx wrote:


Latchan wrote:

What is dangerous is the misconception that sexual harassment against men and sexual harassment against women is the same thing. Sexual harassment is faced by both men and women, but society treats each differently. That's why there are different, gendered safe spaces for this. For example, when men are raped, society doesn't take it seriously. They view male rape as something that doesn't happen, because of poor education and a lack of understanding how human anatomy works. They make fun of men for claiming rape, and verbally harass them for not being "macho" enough.

Women don't have this problem, because most reported rapes are by female victims. What they do face is slut-shaming, being told they were asking for it, etc., and being accused of making false rape allegations.

They are both serious issues, but they need to be addressed in ways that are distinctly different from each other. You can't just lump them together and try to have a broad, neutral understanding of it because we live in a patriarchal society that imagines men as macho, invincible beings and women as promiscuous, manipulative creatures.


I don't really know what point you are trying to make now, but I saw 'patriarchal society,' and I'm very interested now to hear what's next. I'm pretty sure this isn't all. You hardly addressed anything I mentioned aside from my examples of some harassment that men face. So yes, continue....

P.S. I don't know if I'm that sleepy, but I swear that what you're trying to say is that male and female sexual harassment are two different things because Patriarchy, that's why we address them differently when in fact, they're really supposed to be treated like that because... Patriarchy?


Honestly.. I think he's in a women's studies class filled with women who think that the current male bashing going on is what feminism is all about. He listened to what they were saying, might have tried to had them elaborate or may have even rebutted them, got his ass handed to him based on the numbers game, and now is trying to be understanding to women who have expressed that they live in this perpetual state of fear and that it's men's fault.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 11/30/14

serifsansserif wrote:


Dubnoman wrote:

@DeadlyDoll: Ironically, the way we treat and raise females ends up feeding these problems and makes them as bad as they are. It kinda creates and sustains the problems. We also discussed this in the class I took.


Which has been my point, and I believe, DeadlyDoll's.

I think the solution is that simply the fears should be recognized when they are legitimate, but, nevertheless, no one should live in fear. There's thousands upon thousands of things to fear. And you know what? I've been a victim of the very same shit she just mentioned. I'm not going to cower and prevent myself from acting or doing something because of it.

I also feel like it's,ironically enough in this case, something women do to other women. It's women in these threads and comments sections that are denouncing men and at the very same time talking about how they feel afraid and powerless to even walk down the street and that it's ALL MEN (the entire gender) that should change to suit these frailties of womanhood, rather than sucking it up, understanding people are assholes (men and women) and dealing with it.

Nothing else can be said. Life fucking sucks. There's NOTHING that's guaranteed. Learn to deal with it, and don't rely on anyone else to change for you. That may not be the meaning to life, but it's its first and most beholden rule.



The thing is, there is much depth to this topic at large. You could probably read a paper written by some sort of professor (sociology, maybe?) writing at great length about this whole topic and the ins and outs of it and how its many facets lead to things being the way they are.

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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14
Fun fact: just because you're not scared of something doesn't mean other people aren't scared of it.

BONUS fun fact: just because you are scared of something doesn't mean other people should be scared of it.
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Posted 11/30/14

Latchan wrote:

...no, they're not. That's not it at all. I've known women who've been in abusive relationships, and they're not meek and submissive at all. You know how they ended up there? BECAUSE they thought they weren't meek and submissive.

They thought they were anything but. They considered themselves strong, independent women who could never end up in an abusive relationship. So once they ended up there, they didn't really process that it was really happening. They told themselves: "It was a one-time thing. It'll never happen again. He's really sorry about it." But it wasn't a one-time thing, and it kept happening. By the time they started to realize that something was wrong, their partners had already isolated them from their friends and loved ones, and they didn't know who to reach out to in order to find help.


I disagree. Men end up in the same situation alllllllll the time. It's basically an old stereotype of the wife that nags and nags and nags. That the husband has to ask for permission to see his friends, etc. Physical abuse? ehhhh.... I've seen and know of it, but more often than not, it's mental/emotional abuse, and knowing quite a bit first hand about abusive situations, those are far worse. Physical scars heal within weeks. Emotional ones can be forever. And the reason women (and men) stay in those situations is beause they honestly love their abusers. (not saying they love the abuse, but they love the person who does it).
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

serifsansserif wrote:


Latchan wrote:

...no, they're not. That's not it at all. I've known women who've been in abusive relationships, and they're not meek and submissive at all. You know how they ended up there? BECAUSE they thought they weren't meek and submissive.

They thought they were anything but. They considered themselves strong, independent women who could never end up in an abusive relationship. So once they ended up there, they didn't really process that it was really happening. They told themselves: "It was a one-time thing. It'll never happen again. He's really sorry about it." But it wasn't a one-time thing, and it kept happening. By the time they started to realize that something was wrong, their partners had already isolated them from their friends and loved ones, and they didn't know who to reach out to in order to find help.


I disagree. Men end up in the same situation alllllllll the time. It's basically an old stereotype of the wife that nags and nags and nags. That the husband has to ask for permission to see his friends, etc. Physical abuse? ehhhh.... I've seen and know of it, but more often than not, it's mental/emotional abuse, and knowing quite a bit first hand about abusive situations, those are far worse. Physical scars heal within weeks. Emotional ones can be forever. And the reason women (and men) stay in those situations is beause they honestly love their abusers. (not saying they love the abuse, but they love the person who does it).


Wait, what? You disagree with this thing that happens to women because it happens to men, too? How is this issue any less problematic just because it happens to men and women?

The only reason I am addressing it from the POV of a woman in a heterosexual relationship is because OP said that women ended up being abused by men because they were meek and submissive.
Posted 11/30/14
And so it begins...


Hide yo kids, hide yo wifu, and hide yo husbando

The Gender wars are coming
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Posted 11/30/14

Latchan wrote:

Fun fact: just because you're not scared of something doesn't mean other people aren't scared of it.

BONUS fun fact: just because you are scared of something doesn't mean other people should be scared of it.


You're absolutely right. But you don't need to throw it all out there for everyone else to either fix for you or panic over.
Posted 11/30/14

Latchan wrote:

I didn't address your other points because I agree with them? I'm a woman, too. You were kinda preaching to the choir.

They are two different things. Yes, because patriarchy. I know "patriarchy" is a trigger word, like when someone accuses someone of being "communist" or "fascist" and throws around the word just because they can--but I know the definitions of all of these words. I am using it in the correct context.


Huh... I'm not sure I agree that you are, but okay. I definitely cannot fathom how sexual harassment can't just be sexual harassment. I have no problem viewing it as such. To me, it's simply making sexual advances on a person who is clearly and vocally expressing that they are not interested. Males and females can do this. If people want to be idiots and say stuff like 'he's gay' or 'she's a slut,' then they're going to say it because well, they're idiots. Nothing you can really do about that. However, I don't think that should have any bearing on the severity of the crime that was committed. Another human being was violated. I don't see why having a penis or a vagina can make it a more or less serious crime.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

serifsansserif wrote:


Latchan wrote:

Fun fact: just because you're not scared of something doesn't mean other people aren't scared of it.

BONUS fun fact: just because you are scared of something doesn't mean other people should be scared of it.


You're absolutely right. But you don't need to throw it all out there for everyone else to either fix for you or panic over.


When did I throw it all out there for everyone else to fix? When did I ask people to panic? There is nothing wrong with recognizing a problematic aspect of society. Are you asking me to see that something is wrong, but to stay silent about it because it doesn't concern anyone else? If so, you're severely deluded. Social criticisms are recognized as scholarly efforts in most societies with non-totalitarian governments.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 11/30/14

pandrasb wrote:

And so it begins...


Hide yo kids, hide yo wifu, and hide yo husbando

The Gender wars are coming


Trust me, I'm not happy about it either.

I honestly don't care about the concept of gender specific issues and think it rather absurd to divvy up the population like that, but I'm not going to stand idly by while my own gender gets shit forced down its throat by people who think I'm evil incarnate because I'm male. (I'm evil incarnate due to my lack of a soul. XD )

I also get pretty pissed off at first world problems, because, quite frankly, I have now and typically in the past more pressing shit to worry about like survival.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

xDeadlyDollx wrote:


Latchan wrote:

I didn't address your other points because I agree with them? I'm a woman, too. You were kinda preaching to the choir.

They are two different things. Yes, because patriarchy. I know "patriarchy" is a trigger word, like when someone accuses someone of being "communist" or "fascist" and throws around the word just because they can--but I know the definitions of all of these words. I am using it in the correct context.


Huh... I'm not sure I agree that you are, but okay. I definitely cannot fathom how sexual harassment can't just be sexual harassment. I have no problem viewing it as such. To me, it's simply making sexual advances on a person who is clearly and vocally expressing that they are not interested. Males and females can do this. If people want to be idiots and say stuff like 'he's gay' or 'she's a slut,' then they're going to say it because well, they're idiots. Nothing you can really do about that. However, I don't think that should have any bearing on the severity of the crime that was committed. Another human being was violated. I don't see why having a penis or a vagina can make it a more or less serious crime.


No, go on. How am I using it incorrectly?

Sexual harassment is sexual harassment. But male sexual harassment is not the same thing as female sexual harassment, and female sexual harassment is not the same thing as male sexual harassment. Just like how racism against blacks is not the same thing as racism against Hispanics. It's all racism, but the black community has its specific set of discriminations to fight against, and the Hispanic community has theirs.

That's where the nature of our society comes into play. And in case you were wondering, we are a patriarchal society. "Patriarchy" isn't just something that comes out of a radical feminist's mouth in the same breath as "castrate all men". It just means that traditionally, men have been the heads of households in our society. In the past, there have been Native American tribes with matriarchal societies. Neither is a wholly good thing, you see.

We need to address each issue differently because they are treated differently by our society. That's what I'm trying to say.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

Latchan wrote:


xDeadlyDollx wrote:


Latchan wrote:

I didn't address your other points because I agree with them? I'm a woman, too. You were kinda preaching to the choir.

They are two different things. Yes, because patriarchy. I know "patriarchy" is a trigger word, like when someone accuses someone of being "communist" or "fascist" and throws around the word just because they can--but I know the definitions of all of these words. I am using it in the correct context.


Huh... I'm not sure I agree that you are, but okay. I definitely cannot fathom how sexual harassment can't just be sexual harassment. I have no problem viewing it as such. To me, it's simply making sexual advances on a person who is clearly and vocally expressing that they are not interested. Males and females can do this. If people want to be idiots and say stuff like 'he's gay' or 'she's a slut,' then they're going to say it because well, they're idiots. Nothing you can really do about that. However, I don't think that should have any bearing on the severity of the crime that was committed. Another human being was violated. I don't see why having a penis or a vagina can make it a more or less serious crime.


No, go on. How am I using it incorrectly?

Sexual harassment is sexual harassment. But male sexual harassment is not the same thing as female sexual harassment, and female sexual harassment is not the same thing as male sexual harassment. Just like how racism against blacks is not the same thing as racism against Hispanics. It's all racism, but the black community has its specific set of discriminations to fight against, and the Hispanic community has theirs.

That's where the nature of our society comes into play. And in case you were wondering, we are a patriarchal society. "Patriarchy" isn't just something that comes out of a radical feminist's mouth in the same breath as "castrate all men". It just means that traditionally, men have been the heads of households in our society. In the past, there have been Native American tribes with matriarchal societies. Neither is a wholly good thing, you see.

We need to address each issue differently because they are treated differently by our society. That's what I'm trying to say.


Ouch.

If I comment any further on this, I'm going to start delving into comments related to the location of heads shoved in other orifices, or questioning just how much people love drama and would rather instigate by being divisive.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 11/30/14

serifsansserif wrote:


Latchan wrote:


xDeadlyDollx wrote:


Latchan wrote:

I didn't address your other points because I agree with them? I'm a woman, too. You were kinda preaching to the choir.

They are two different things. Yes, because patriarchy. I know "patriarchy" is a trigger word, like when someone accuses someone of being "communist" or "fascist" and throws around the word just because they can--but I know the definitions of all of these words. I am using it in the correct context.


Huh... I'm not sure I agree that you are, but okay. I definitely cannot fathom how sexual harassment can't just be sexual harassment. I have no problem viewing it as such. To me, it's simply making sexual advances on a person who is clearly and vocally expressing that they are not interested. Males and females can do this. If people want to be idiots and say stuff like 'he's gay' or 'she's a slut,' then they're going to say it because well, they're idiots. Nothing you can really do about that. However, I don't think that should have any bearing on the severity of the crime that was committed. Another human being was violated. I don't see why having a penis or a vagina can make it a more or less serious crime.


No, go on. How am I using it incorrectly?

Sexual harassment is sexual harassment. But male sexual harassment is not the same thing as female sexual harassment, and female sexual harassment is not the same thing as male sexual harassment. Just like how racism against blacks is not the same thing as racism against Hispanics. It's all racism, but the black community has its specific set of discriminations to fight against, and the Hispanic community has theirs.

That's where the nature of our society comes into play. And in case you were wondering, we are a patriarchal society. "Patriarchy" isn't just something that comes out of a radical feminist's mouth in the same breath as "castrate all men". It just means that traditionally, men have been the heads of households in our society. In the past, there have been Native American tribes with matriarchal societies. Neither is a wholly good thing, you see.

We need to address each issue differently because they are treated differently by our society. That's what I'm trying to say.


Ouch.

If I comment any further on this, I'm going to start delving into comments related to the location of heads shoved in other orifices, or questioning just how much people love drama and would rather instigate by being divisive.

You've already commented. Trust me, I'm already at that point with reading your comment about "first world problems". Which is disgustingly self-important of you. Do you even know what "first world" is? Tell me about those third-world countries. Did you know Turkey is a first world country, and Switzerland is a third world country? Did you know that first, second, and third world were terms that emerged based on what sides countries took during the Cold War?

First world countries were capitalist, second world countries were communist, and third world countries were the rest of the world. Congratulations, you're really disgusting.
Posted 11/30/14

Latchan wrote:

No, go on. How am I using it incorrectly?

Sexual harassment is sexual harassment. But male sexual harassment is not the same thing as female sexual harassment, and female sexual harassment is not the same thing as male sexual harassment. Just like how racism against blacks is not the same thing as racism against Hispanics. It's all racism, but the black community has its specific set of discriminations to fight against, and the Hispanic community has theirs.

That's where the nature of our society comes into play. And in case you were wondering, we are a patriarchal society. "Patriarchy" isn't just something that comes out of a radical feminist's mouth in the same breath as "castrate all men". It just means that traditionally, men have been the heads of households in our society. In the past, there have been Native American tribes with matriarchal societies. Neither is a wholly good thing, you see.

We need to address each issue differently because they are treated differently by our society. That's what I'm trying to say.


Well, just the fact that I don't think it applies to the modern western societies anymore, but that's a whole different thing so to each their own.

Anyway, I do not follow your train of thought. We seem to be operating on differing wavelengths here. I cannot rationalize what you have just said. I don't see where you are drawing these differences from and why you are claiming that they are necessary. It's like saying that a murder committed by a woman is not the same as a murder committed by a man. (Though the justice system technically operates on such foolish assumptions. Hooray for receiving lighter sentences than men!!) I'm sorry, but I cannot process that ideology at all. Must be because, you know... EQUALITY.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are against what you consider to be a "Patriarchal Society," and yet you agree that we should address these issues differently because of that very society that you do not agree with? Okay, now I'm really confused.
Posted 11/30/14

Latchan wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:


Latchan wrote:


xDeadlyDollx wrote:


Latchan wrote:

I didn't address your other points because I agree with them? I'm a woman, too. You were kinda preaching to the choir.

They are two different things. Yes, because patriarchy. I know "patriarchy" is a trigger word, like when someone accuses someone of being "communist" or "fascist" and throws around the word just because they can--but I know the definitions of all of these words. I am using it in the correct context.


Huh... I'm not sure I agree that you are, but okay. I definitely cannot fathom how sexual harassment can't just be sexual harassment. I have no problem viewing it as such. To me, it's simply making sexual advances on a person who is clearly and vocally expressing that they are not interested. Males and females can do this. If people want to be idiots and say stuff like 'he's gay' or 'she's a slut,' then they're going to say it because well, they're idiots. Nothing you can really do about that. However, I don't think that should have any bearing on the severity of the crime that was committed. Another human being was violated. I don't see why having a penis or a vagina can make it a more or less serious crime.


No, go on. How am I using it incorrectly?

Sexual harassment is sexual harassment. But male sexual harassment is not the same thing as female sexual harassment, and female sexual harassment is not the same thing as male sexual harassment. Just like how racism against blacks is not the same thing as racism against Hispanics. It's all racism, but the black community has its specific set of discriminations to fight against, and the Hispanic community has theirs.

That's where the nature of our society comes into play. And in case you were wondering, we are a patriarchal society. "Patriarchy" isn't just something that comes out of a radical feminist's mouth in the same breath as "castrate all men". It just means that traditionally, men have been the heads of households in our society. In the past, there have been Native American tribes with matriarchal societies. Neither is a wholly good thing, you see.

We need to address each issue differently because they are treated differently by our society. That's what I'm trying to say.


Ouch.

If I comment any further on this, I'm going to start delving into comments related to the location of heads shoved in other orifices, or questioning just how much people love drama and would rather instigate by being divisive.

You've already commented. Trust me, I'm already at that point with reading your comment about "first world problems". Which is disgustingly self-important of you. Do you even know what "first world" is? Tell me about those third-world countries. Did you know Turkey is a first world country, and Switzerland is a third world country? Did you know that first, second, and third world were terms that emerged based on what sides countries took during the Cold War?

First world countries were capitalist, second world countries were communist, and third world countries were the rest of the world. Congratulations, you're really disgusting.


interlude
Personal attacks, this is getting heated

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