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Student Dies after Confronting Group of Men Bothering Girls
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Posted 11/30/14

Latchan wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:


Latchan wrote:


xDeadlyDollx wrote:


Latchan wrote:

I didn't address your other points because I agree with them? I'm a woman, too. You were kinda preaching to the choir.

They are two different things. Yes, because patriarchy. I know "patriarchy" is a trigger word, like when someone accuses someone of being "communist" or "fascist" and throws around the word just because they can--but I know the definitions of all of these words. I am using it in the correct context.


Huh... I'm not sure I agree that you are, but okay. I definitely cannot fathom how sexual harassment can't just be sexual harassment. I have no problem viewing it as such. To me, it's simply making sexual advances on a person who is clearly and vocally expressing that they are not interested. Males and females can do this. If people want to be idiots and say stuff like 'he's gay' or 'she's a slut,' then they're going to say it because well, they're idiots. Nothing you can really do about that. However, I don't think that should have any bearing on the severity of the crime that was committed. Another human being was violated. I don't see why having a penis or a vagina can make it a more or less serious crime.


No, go on. How am I using it incorrectly?

Sexual harassment is sexual harassment. But male sexual harassment is not the same thing as female sexual harassment, and female sexual harassment is not the same thing as male sexual harassment. Just like how racism against blacks is not the same thing as racism against Hispanics. It's all racism, but the black community has its specific set of discriminations to fight against, and the Hispanic community has theirs.

That's where the nature of our society comes into play. And in case you were wondering, we are a patriarchal society. "Patriarchy" isn't just something that comes out of a radical feminist's mouth in the same breath as "castrate all men". It just means that traditionally, men have been the heads of households in our society. In the past, there have been Native American tribes with matriarchal societies. Neither is a wholly good thing, you see.

We need to address each issue differently because they are treated differently by our society. That's what I'm trying to say.


Ouch.

If I comment any further on this, I'm going to start delving into comments related to the location of heads shoved in other orifices, or questioning just how much people love drama and would rather instigate by being divisive.

You've already commented. Trust me, I'm already at that point with reading your comment about "first world problems". Which is disgustingly self-important of you. Do you even know what "first world" is? Tell me about those third-world countries. Did you know Turkey is a first world country, and Switzerland is a third world country? Did you know that first, second, and third world were terms that emerged based on what sides countries took during the Cold War?

First world countries were capitalist, second world countries were communist, and third world countries were the rest of the world. Congratulations, you're really disgusting.


yes. I learned that in 5th grade. Which was only a matter of a few years after the cold war ended, which I was alive to see. Congrats. you proved you know about as much as a fifth grader.

First world problems, on the other hand, is a modern day term to refer to problems of the wealthy in the most developed of nations and is meant to be derogatory as referring to things so inconsequential compared to the issues elsewhere in the world, that they can only be considered problems to those who have absolutely nothing to worry about.
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Damn it. I can back. *sigh*

Seriously. Stop quoting me. I don't need the notifications.
Posted 11/30/14

pandrasb wrote:

interlude
Personal attacks, this is getting heated



I don't see why it has to be though.

Do you have caramel popcorn? The buttery stuff is gross...
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

xDeadlyDollx wrote:


Latchan wrote:

No, go on. How am I using it incorrectly?

Sexual harassment is sexual harassment. But male sexual harassment is not the same thing as female sexual harassment, and female sexual harassment is not the same thing as male sexual harassment. Just like how racism against blacks is not the same thing as racism against Hispanics. It's all racism, but the black community has its specific set of discriminations to fight against, and the Hispanic community has theirs.

That's where the nature of our society comes into play. And in case you were wondering, we are a patriarchal society. "Patriarchy" isn't just something that comes out of a radical feminist's mouth in the same breath as "castrate all men". It just means that traditionally, men have been the heads of households in our society. In the past, there have been Native American tribes with matriarchal societies. Neither is a wholly good thing, you see.

We need to address each issue differently because they are treated differently by our society. That's what I'm trying to say.


Well, just the fact that I don't think it applies to the modern western societies anymore, but that's a whole different thing so to each their own.

Anyway, I do not follow your train of thought. We seem to be operating on differing wavelengths here. I cannot rationalize what you have just said. I don't see where you are drawing these differences from and why you are claiming that they are necessary. It's like saying that a murder committed by a woman is not the same as a murder committed by a man. (Though the justice system technically operates on such foolish assumptions. Hooray for receiving lighter sentences than men!!) I'm sorry, but I cannot process that ideology at all. Must be because, you know... EQUALITY.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are against what you consider to be a "Patriarchal Society," and yet you agree that we should address these issues differently because of that very society that you do not agree with? Okay, now I'm really confused.


I'm not saying one needs to be taken less seriously than the other.

We need to address these issues differently BECAUSE of the nature of our society. Treating these issues the same way does not erase how society views them differently. That would just be aggressively ignoring the real problem. Both issues are serious and should be treated with the same amount of severity, but in different ways.

You can't fix two different problems with the same tool, but both problems are pressing issues that need to be treated with the same priority.

Why are you putting "patriarchy" in quotation marks like it's a fake word? It's a real word. It's in the dictionary. I'm even using it in the correct context. Are you saying we've been a matriarchal society or something?

EDIT: I see what you said now about the patriarchy and why you put it in quotation marks, sorry.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

serifsansserif wrote:


Latchan wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:


Latchan wrote:


xDeadlyDollx wrote:


Latchan wrote:

I didn't address your other points because I agree with them? I'm a woman, too. You were kinda preaching to the choir.

They are two different things. Yes, because patriarchy. I know "patriarchy" is a trigger word, like when someone accuses someone of being "communist" or "fascist" and throws around the word just because they can--but I know the definitions of all of these words. I am using it in the correct context.


Huh... I'm not sure I agree that you are, but okay. I definitely cannot fathom how sexual harassment can't just be sexual harassment. I have no problem viewing it as such. To me, it's simply making sexual advances on a person who is clearly and vocally expressing that they are not interested. Males and females can do this. If people want to be idiots and say stuff like 'he's gay' or 'she's a slut,' then they're going to say it because well, they're idiots. Nothing you can really do about that. However, I don't think that should have any bearing on the severity of the crime that was committed. Another human being was violated. I don't see why having a penis or a vagina can make it a more or less serious crime.


No, go on. How am I using it incorrectly?

Sexual harassment is sexual harassment. But male sexual harassment is not the same thing as female sexual harassment, and female sexual harassment is not the same thing as male sexual harassment. Just like how racism against blacks is not the same thing as racism against Hispanics. It's all racism, but the black community has its specific set of discriminations to fight against, and the Hispanic community has theirs.

That's where the nature of our society comes into play. And in case you were wondering, we are a patriarchal society. "Patriarchy" isn't just something that comes out of a radical feminist's mouth in the same breath as "castrate all men". It just means that traditionally, men have been the heads of households in our society. In the past, there have been Native American tribes with matriarchal societies. Neither is a wholly good thing, you see.

We need to address each issue differently because they are treated differently by our society. That's what I'm trying to say.


Ouch.

If I comment any further on this, I'm going to start delving into comments related to the location of heads shoved in other orifices, or questioning just how much people love drama and would rather instigate by being divisive.

You've already commented. Trust me, I'm already at that point with reading your comment about "first world problems". Which is disgustingly self-important of you. Do you even know what "first world" is? Tell me about those third-world countries. Did you know Turkey is a first world country, and Switzerland is a third world country? Did you know that first, second, and third world were terms that emerged based on what sides countries took during the Cold War?

First world countries were capitalist, second world countries were communist, and third world countries were the rest of the world. Congratulations, you're really disgusting.


yes. I learned that in 5th grade. Which was only a matter of a few years after the cold war ended, which I was alive to see. Congrats. you proved you know about as much as a fifth grader.

First world problems, on the other hand, is a modern day term to refer to problems of the wealthy in the most developed of nations and is meant to be derogatory as referring to things so inconsequential compared to the issues elsewhere in the world, that they can only be considered problems to those who have absolutely nothing to worry about.
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Damn it. I can back. *sigh*

Seriously. Stop quoting me. I don't need the notifications.

If you truly understood its context, you wouldn't be using it the way you did. You think people in the so-called third world don't care about makeup, love, and technology? Because they do. You think they don't care about street harassment? That they never face these issues? I don't know what kind of third-world countries you're imagining, but they do.

If you want to stop getting notifications, stop giving me notifications. It works both ways. And for the record, you approached me.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

xDeadlyDollx wrote:


pandrasb wrote:

interlude
Personal attacks, this is getting heated



I don't see why it has to be though.

Do you have caramel popcorn? The buttery stuff is gross...


Cheese, the one that's mild cheddar.

Gender wars have always gotten heated, it's at that point you kind of have to step back and see both perspectives, and try to stand in each others shoes.
Posted 11/30/14

Latchan wrote:

I'm not saying one needs to be taken less seriously than the other.

We need to address these issues differently BECAUSE of the nature of our society. Treating these issues the same way does not erase how society views them differently. That would just be aggressively ignoring the real problem. Both issues are serious and should be treated with the same amount of severity, but in different ways.

You can't fix two different problems with the same tool, but both problems are pressing issues that need to be treated with the same priority.

Why are you putting "patriarchy" like it's a fake word? It's a real word. It's in the dictionary. I'm even using it in the correct context. Are you saying we've been a matriarchal society or something?


Nope, still not making sense. I am pretty much done here because you are repeating the same things over and over, but it's still not making any sense to me. It was amusing at first, but now I'm just wondering if you even know what you're talking about anymore. How does treating an issue that both sexes face equally not erase the gendered view of people on it? And why would doing that mean that the "real problem" is being ignored? What's the real problem anyway? Isn't the real problem here the fact that these issues are being viewed in such a gendered way that women are now excessively becoming more and more paranoid of the opposite sex?

If you believe in equality, then you should know that they are not different problems. They are one and the same in that they hurt another human being both physically, emotionally, and even psychologically.

Lastly, I said no such thing. I simply do not pay attention to that kind of sociopolitically driven and biased ideology.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

xDeadlyDollx wrote:


Latchan wrote:

I'm not saying one needs to be taken less seriously than the other.

We need to address these issues differently BECAUSE of the nature of our society. Treating these issues the same way does not erase how society views them differently. That would just be aggressively ignoring the real problem. Both issues are serious and should be treated with the same amount of severity, but in different ways.

You can't fix two different problems with the same tool, but both problems are pressing issues that need to be treated with the same priority.

Why are you putting "patriarchy" like it's a fake word? It's a real word. It's in the dictionary. I'm even using it in the correct context. Are you saying we've been a matriarchal society or something?


Nope, still not making sense. I am pretty much done here because you are repeating the same things over and over, but it's still not making any sense to me. It was amusing at first, but now I'm just wondering if you even know what you're talking about anymore. How does treating an issue that both sexes face equally not erase the gendered view of people on it? And why would doing that mean that the "real problem" is being ignored? What's the real problem anyway? Isn't the real problem here the fact that these issues are being viewed in such a gendered way that women are now excessively becoming more and more paranoid of the opposite sex?

If you believe in equality, then you should know that they are not different problems. They are one and the same in that they hurt another human being both physically, emotionally, and even psychologically.

Lastly, I said no such thing. I simply do not pay attention to that kind of sociopolitically driven and biased ideology.


I'm repeating the same things over and over again because you are asking the same questions over and over again. I'm not obligated to be your schoolteacher, especially when you don't care to understand. One last time: It doesn't erase the gendered view of it because we can't use the same tool to fix two different problems. Consider this: society treats male rapes as false. For the most part, society believes that males rapes can't actually happen. If we were to remedy this, we would educate ourselves and develop the understanding that the anatomy of the human body does allow for male rapes. But if we were to use this same solution with female rapes, how would that help females who were raped? Great, males can be raped. Well, they're not males.

That's why they needed to be treated differently.

The real problem is that these are issues that are being considered differently by society. To ignore that and aggressively push for equal treatment while the unequal social connotations are still there is just erasure.

They are the same basic concepts. They are not the same issues.

If you still don't understand that, feel free to leave.

EDIT: I suppose you put "communism" and "fascism" in quotation marks every time you use it in a sentence, too. I suppose you think that condemning the KKK means you've done your part in helping racism against Hispanics, too. I suppose you just don't pay attention to anything that would mean understanding subtle differences because that's complicated and you'll only care about an issue if it's simple.
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Posted 11/30/14
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-852503/women-on-men-abuse?pg=0
There are some links to places like the cdc if you look for them.
As it stands, and I haven't read everything, I think the thread might be getting a mite off-topic.
Posted 11/30/14 , edited 11/30/14

Latchan wrote:

I'm repeating the same things over and over again because you are asking the same questions over and over again. I'm not obligated to be your schoolteacher, especially when you don't care to understand. One last time: It doesn't erase the gendered view of it because we can't use the same tool to fix two different problems. Consider this: society treats male rapes as false. For the most part, society believes that males rapes can't actually happen. If we were to remedy this, we would educate ourselves and develop the understanding that the anatomy of the human body does allow for male rapes. But if we were to use this same solution with female rapes, how would that help females who were raped? Great, males can be raped. Well, they're not males.

That's why they needed to be treated differently.

The real problem is that these are issues that are being considered differently by society. To ignore that and aggressively push for equal treatment while the unequal social connotations are still there is just erasure.

They are the same basic concepts. They are not the same issues.

If you still don't understand that, feel free to leave.


I am not obligated to understand your ideologies, but out of curiosity, I tried. Do not get all high and mighty because I admitted my own lack of understanding. The part I highlighted makes absolutely no sense. I don't know how you can process that and think "yeah, makes sense," but I guess this is proof of why we will not see eye to eye on this.

I am getting bored of this. All I've learned is that there are still people who think gender matters. How uninteresting...


EDIT: I suppose you put "communism" and "fascism" in quotation marks every time you use it in a sentence, too. I suppose you think that condemning the KKK means you've done your part in helping racism against Hispanics, too. I suppose you just don't pay attention to anything that would mean understanding subtle differences because that's complicated and you'll only care about an issue if it's simple.


If that's what you want to think, no one's stopping you.
If you're doing that to insult me, I apologize. Your opinion of me means nothing to me.
If you're just doing that because it makes you feel better about yourself, I'm cool with it. It doesn't bother me.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14

xDeadlyDollx wrote:


Latchan wrote:

I'm repeating the same things over and over again because you are asking the same questions over and over again. I'm not obligated to be your schoolteacher, especially when you don't care to understand. One last time: It doesn't erase the gendered view of it because we can't use the same tool to fix two different problems. Consider this: society treats male rapes as false. For the most part, society believes that males rapes can't actually happen. If we were to remedy this, we would educate ourselves and develop the understanding that the anatomy of the human body does allow for male rapes. But if we were to use this same solution with female rapes, how would that help females who were raped? Great, males can be raped. Well, they're not males.

That's why they needed to be treated differently.

The real problem is that these are issues that are being considered differently by society. To ignore that and aggressively push for equal treatment while the unequal social connotations are still there is just erasure.

They are the same basic concepts. They are not the same issues.

If you still don't understand that, feel free to leave.


I am not obligated to understand your ideologies, but out of curiosity, I tried. Do not get all high and mighty because I admitted my own lack of understanding. The part I highlighted makes absolutely no sense. I don't know how you can process that and think "yeah, makes sense," but I guess this is proof of why we will not see eye to eye on this.

I am getting bored of this. All I've learned is that there are still people who think gender matters. How uninteresting...


................................wait, so you think gender doesn't matter.

Okay. Yeah, I'm done.

You're not obligated to understand me, and I'm not obligated to make you understand me. You got high and mighty first with your "you amuse me" bullsh*t.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 11/30/14

xDeadlyDollx wrote:

If that's what you want to think, no one's stopping you.
If you're doing that to insult me, I apologize. Your opinion of me means nothing to me.
If you're just doing that because it makes you feel better about yourself, I'm cool with it. It doesn't bother me.


Nah. I'm just confirming what I already know.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14
I've lost faith in most of society anyways.
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14
I tried following this argument, but I have no idea what I'm even reading.

As for the story in the OP:
This girl was brave and died as a hero. This world needs more people like her who are willing to stand up to groups of thugs harassing people. Gender should have very little to do with this. A group of men (do we even know how many?) harassed 2 girls and a third girl came and defended them. Maybe those guys were harassing because they wanted to have sex with those girls. Maybe they wanted to rob them and thought they were weak and fragile targets. Who knows? Thugs like them gang up and threaten people of all genders, nationalities, ethnicity, orientation, etc. all the time for whatever petty reason. There needs to be more brave and selfless citizens like Tugce Albayrak who would tell these people that their behavior is not ok.
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Posted 11/30/14
amazon, order hidden batons for protection
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Posted 11/30/14 , edited 12/1/14
This incident prompted me to ask if you, as a female, are nervous to simply walk around in public all alone for fear of incidents such as these? Or cat-calling, harassment in general? Do you think men take these sorts of things too lightly?

No, I'm not one to wallow in paranoia. There generally aren't shadowy groups of men waiting behind trash cans to ambush women, or anything like that. I don't approve of exaggerating threats. Cat-calling? Pfft... A rare nuisance, for me, but hardly much of a threat. Harassment in general? No, not really. Sure, if I personally identify a creep that hangs around where I live, I'd likely avoid the person. Not because I'm really worried, but because the individual is obnoxious and icky. I guess some guys may take it "too lightly," but I wonder where the line is drawn that defines it as "too lightly." Besides, I have no reason to believe that, if the victim in the article was male, the perpetrators wouldn't have still murdered. That said, the noxious attitude of "women vs men" strikes me as revolting. When people take that sort of stance, it tends to do little more than crumble communication and distract from actual improvement. How can anything get done with vicious arguments taking place? Humph.
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