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Posted 12/2/14 , edited 12/2/14

xCrimsonEX wrote:

His being arrogant while it does annoy me its not my main grievance with regards to him, that's the idea of raping or even owning others. I really don't care what culture or time period the character is from to me the moment rape is mentioned that character becomes immediately one that I dislike or hate.


I'll agree with you on that one


I can't say 100% sure wouldn't since I go by the concept that there is nothing that is absolute, but I'd probably be more aligned with Saber or Iskandar (more towards the first.) I don't think my core personality would shift into arrogance.


Saber is arrogant though, in a completely different way. The ones I find less arrogant though would be Rider, Lancer (FSN) you'll see why he's a real bro later in this route, and Assassin (FSN).


Is there evidence he deserves to be arrogant? Sure. Does that change the idea that it comes across in a very douchey way? Nope. It can be justified yet still douchey.


Well yea, he's supposed to come off as a douche. He IS A douche lol.


I base the man-crush idea on the fact in every Fate-franchise series Gilgamesh will pop up at some point + in each version he ends up getting even more OP (except Kaleid which is done by a different person thus getting a more reined in version.) The idea of a rapist even being held in the category of 'hero' doesn't sit well with me. o.O wow seems Nasu and I have similar likes then since I hold both Riders in high regard (though Saber rules as my fav throughout.)


you'd be surprised how many of histories "heroes" were rapists, especially during those eras.

You know very little about heaven's feel huh lol


Kalieds version of Gil is essentially the same as Hollow Ataraxias Gil, If you like him there you should also check out HA.

Oh for the record, I find Gil a good villian. I don't particularly like him though.
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Posted 12/2/14 , edited 12/2/14

kingcity20 wrote:

Saber is arrogant though, in a completely different way. The ones I find less arrogant though would be Rider, Lancer (FSN) you'll see why he's a real bro later in this route, and Assassin (FSN).


Saber is prideful and resolute, the main reason she is my favorite character of FSN and towards the top of my favorite strong females list. If anything she's too hard on herself and doesn't see the good she's done. She pushes herself to the limit and will even attempt to exceed it in order to fix what she sees as her past mistakes, but its not born out of arrogance.

I'm already aware of Lancer's actions later in the UBW route as I'm well researched on all the routes as well as getting the basic gist from the UBW movie (compressed but still gave the core idea.) Though "King of Bro's" is already taken by Iskandar.


And if they were reincarnated in modern times with that same view I'd have the same view towards them, even disagreeing with the idea of them being heroes. For instance I once liked Poseidon, then I learned of the Medusa story and from that moment on I can't stand Poseidon nor condemn Medusa. To me that act disqualifies you as a 'hero'.

I wasn't limiting it specifically to FSN. He goes from having a golden bow and GoB in Prototype -> GoB, Ea, and magic resistance that resists even a full blast of Excalibur in FSN -> gaining basically a fking fighter jet that's like a nuclear battleship alongside all the other things in Zero.
Kaleid reins all that in, which I put on the change of author, and takes away his more negative traits, then packs him in a little chibi form so he comes across as a little cheeky brat than anything else.
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Posted 12/2/14


Hollow Ataraxia Gil


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Posted 12/3/14 , edited 12/3/14

xCrimsonEX wrote:



His being arrogant while it does annoy me its not my main grievance with regards to him, that's the idea of raping or even owning others. I really don't care what culture or time period the character is from to me the moment rape is mentioned that character becomes immediately one that I dislike or hate. It's kinda like someone saying they find Hannibal Lecter attractive which my reaction would be: "But he eats people o.O"

I can't say 100% sure wouldn't since I go by the concept that there is nothing that is absolute, but I'd probably be more aligned with Saber or Iskandar (more towards the first.) I don't think my core personality would shift into arrogance.

Is there evidence he deserves to be arrogant? Sure. Does that change the idea that it comes across in a very douchey way? Nope. It can be justified yet still douchey.

I base the man-crush idea on the fact in every Fate-franchise series Gilgamesh will pop up at some point + in each version he ends up getting even more OP (except Kaleid which is done by a different person thus getting a more reined in version.) The idea of a rapist even being held in the category of 'hero' doesn't sit well with me. o.O wow seems Nasu and I have similar likes then since I hold both Riders in high regard (though Saber rules as my fav throughout.)


Well in regardness to Gilgamesh's OPness, all of it was based on his mythology after all. Its not like Nasu makes up powers on the spot, everything is derived from Gil's mythos. As for the whole hero thing, heroes are known for ultimately for their feats in their time period. Alot of people in Gil's time would consider him to be a hero, and even today, because of what he did, not because of his personality. Man, if heroic spirits would be disqualified as heroes based on modern morals, I'd imagine there'd be very few heroic spirits left :P

In any case, I understand if you don't like him regardless if his personality/action is justified, I just wanted to clarify why he is who he is.

By your logic, Nasu has a bigger crush on Saber than Gilgamesh, considering the gazillion different iterations of her. From Saber, Saber Alter, Saber Lily, Master Saber, Sakura Saber, Fate/Extra Saber, etc.

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Posted 12/3/14

farispie wrote:

Well in regardness to Gilgamesh's OPness, all of it was based on his mythology after all. Its not like Nasu makes up powers on the spot, everything is derived from Gil's mythos. As for the whole hero thing, heroes are known for ultimately for their feats in their time period. Alot of people in Gil's time would consider him to be a hero, and even today, because of what he did, not because of his personality. Man, if heroic spirits would be disqualified as heroes based on modern morals, I'd imagine there'd be very few heroic spirits left :P

In any case, I understand if you don't like him regardless if his personality/action is justified, I just wanted to clarify why he is who he is.



Some smart guy once said that one man's hero is another man's villain. It gets referenced in Fate/Apocrypha, but it's still true in the real world, but Vlad III (aka Vlad Tepes/Vlad the Impaler) is widely remembered as a great hero in Romania, Greece, and some other parts of the Baltic region. Most other western cultures see him as a monster for what he did, but the people in those lands see the same actions and find a hero because of what his actions did.

Even King Arthur, while generally a moral person (yeah, Arthur did have an incestuous extramarital relationship, but I don't know that it was necessarily Arthur's fault), was so consumed with the goal of protecting the people, that he neglected to pay attention to the house of cards the entire kingdom was built upon. Obviously, rape is a worse sin than complacency, in pretty much everyone's eyes. But, ultimately, that complacency was his undoing. (You get a good sense of this in Fate/Zero, when Saber encounters Lancelot; the specifics are obviously different due to the gender change, though.)

Gilgamesh came from a time when culture barely existed; it isn't surprising that what they considered heroic is a little different. Its depressing to think about, but, in many cultures in the world, raping the women of your enemies was not only considered acceptable, but expected, even fairly recently (like, in the last couple centuries). I think that, in a story whose entire theme is "what makes a hero?", its important to have, as an example, someone who, by modern standards, isn't a hero, but by historical precedence, is still considered one.
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Posted 12/3/14
The King of Heroes fills this thread, yes, but what is he to the King of Bros?



He is as nothing, he passeth away!



Hail the Bro King!
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Posted 12/3/14

imaginarycreatures wrote:


farispie wrote:

Well in regardness to Gilgamesh's OPness, all of it was based on his mythology after all. Its not like Nasu makes up powers on the spot, everything is derived from Gil's mythos. As for the whole hero thing, heroes are known for ultimately for their feats in their time period. Alot of people in Gil's time would consider him to be a hero, and even today, because of what he did, not because of his personality. Man, if heroic spirits would be disqualified as heroes based on modern morals, I'd imagine there'd be very few heroic spirits left :P

In any case, I understand if you don't like him regardless if his personality/action is justified, I just wanted to clarify why he is who he is.



Some smart guy once said that one man's hero is another man's villain. It gets referenced in Fate/Apocrypha, but it's still true in the real world, but Vlad III (aka Vlad Tepes/Vlad the Impaler) is widely remembered as a great hero in Romania, Greece, and some other parts of the Baltic region. Most other western cultures see him as a monster for what he did, but the people in those lands see the same actions and find a hero because of what his actions did.

Even King Arthur, while generally a moral person (yeah, Arthur did have an incestuous extramarital relationship, but I don't know that it was necessarily Arthur's fault), was so consumed with the goal of protecting the people, that he neglected to pay attention to the house of cards the entire kingdom was built upon. Obviously, rape is a worse sin than complacency, in pretty much everyone's eyes. But, ultimately, that complacency was his undoing. (You get a good sense of this in Fate/Zero, when Saber encounters Lancelot; the specifics are obviously different due to the gender change, though.)

Gilgamesh came from a time when culture barely existed; it isn't surprising that what they considered heroic is a little different. Its depressing to think about, but, in many cultures in the world, raping the women of your enemies was not only considered acceptable, but expected, even fairly recently (like, in the last couple centuries). I think that, in a story whose entire theme is "what makes a hero?", its important to have, as an example, someone who, by modern standards, isn't a hero, but by historical precedence, is still considered one.



You summed up my thoughts exactly. Hell even F/SN Lancer was no stranger to "raping" so to speak (well, if making love to defeated female enemies count as rape, , given the backstory elaborated on in fate hollow).
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Posted 12/3/14 , edited 12/3/14

xCrimsonEX wrote:


kingcity20 wrote:

Gil is the same arrogant bastard in Kalied though o.O
If you love him in Kalied, you'll love him just as much in Hollow Ataraxia


Arrogant? Sure. Mentioning raping someone or owning people? No, especially the prior. I'd say I find him more tolerable and likable in Kaleid.

Pretty sure that raping back in the day was okay (if you were a important person). Hell even Arturia was born out of rape. Anyway he did stop raping people when he met Enkidu. The reason I like Gilgamesh is because he seem like the only person there who earn everything in his life and that he value friendship and humanity more then anyone. And you don't like Makishima? WHY?!?!? And didn't Saber rape her sister? which created Mordred?
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Posted 12/3/14

TomCraft wrote:


xCrimsonEX wrote:


kingcity20 wrote:

Gil is the same arrogant bastard in Kalied though o.O
If you love him in Kalied, you'll love him just as much in Hollow Ataraxia


Arrogant? Sure. Mentioning raping someone or owning people? No, especially the prior. I'd say I find him more tolerable and likable in Kaleid.

Pretty sure that raping back in the day was okay (if you were a important person). Hell even Arturia was born out of rape. Anyway he did stop raping people when he met Enkidu. The reason I like Gilgamesh is because he seem like the only person there who earn everything in his life and that he value friendship and humanity more then anyone. And you don't like Makishima? WHY?!?!? And didn't Saber rape her sister? which created Mordred?


IIRC, Arther was under a geis at the time, placed on him by the mother. I'm not exactly sure how they rewrote the story for Apocrypha, though.
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Posted 12/3/14 , edited 12/3/14


It would depend on personality and abilities given not just looks, and unless HA is turned into an anime or manga I won't be touching it.

The part that baffles me is more on the aspect of people finding him appealing. I go back to my prior example: I love Hannibal Lecter as a villain and/or character, however I don't see how anyone could find him appealing considering what he does.



It's about the fact that he's given more and more 'gifts' as the series moves on, while the other's are left as they are. If going be original mythos Rider (FSN) should be even more dangerous since she should be able to petrify anyone that she lays eyes on, regardless of magic resistance (as that isn't mentioned in the mythos), but that's never shown as an ability of hers. Saber should have several more buffs going by several other legends/interpretations of legends I've heard of her.

To be fair to him he's honestly not even the worst of the so called 'heroes' summoned (looking at you Caster (FZ)). I've basically learned to think of it as being a subtle hint of the Grail's true nature that it seemingly holds little to no moral weighing. I can't imagine having to do the research on how each hero was morally to decide who to come in and who not.

I see Gil as being the stereotype (<-- stressing this cause I don't know any personally) of the 'obnoxious drunk frat jerk', and can't wrap my head around the appeal in that.

Well I'd actually say that each of the Sabers are different people with obvious exception in the case of FZ and FSN. And Saber is always relatively restrained and not OP (Kaleid's Saber Alter probably is the closest to it). With Avalon at her side going by some interpretations she should be invincible, which would be a perfect troll towards Gilgamesh.



I'll agree on the idea of heroism being subjective at a certain level, however I'd much rather think of it as a subtle hint for the Grail's true nature.

I would say that Arthur's striving to help and protect all of his people was noble and heroic in itself, so while it limited his view it was still something noble and heroic. As for the extramarital incestuous part, as far as I've heard the mythos its always been a manipulation or charm used to cause him to fall into it.

Regardless of culture or era, I still see his actions as being repugnant. Not to mention that the Grail pulls another 'wtf' moment in FZ with its calling Caster (FZ) who actually may be more repugnant. But even then my main thing was more being baffled by how people see him in an appealing light.



Truly all should hail the King of Bros!
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Posted 12/3/14 , edited 12/3/14


Still doesn't alter it being repugnant, regardless of whether the culture accepted it at the time or not, and the people that do it being deserving of a dog's death. I dunno about that considering in FSN he basically aims to take Saber and make her his whether she wants it or not. I actually see him as doing all he values is his own gains and nothing more, considering he considers other humans to be owned by him and not their own beings. As far as I understand the Arthurian legend Arthus was under a spell or charm, then was seduced to sleep with his sister which then created Mordred.

As for Makishima (even though its off-topic):


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Posted 12/3/14 , edited 12/3/14

xCrimsonEX wrote:



It would depend on personality and abilities given not just looks, and unless HA is turned into an anime or manga I won't be touching it.

The part that baffles me is more on the aspect of people finding him appealing. I go back to my prior example: I love Hannibal Lecter as a villain and/or character, however I don't see how anyone could find him appealing considering what he does.



It's about the fact that he's given more and more 'gifts' as the series moves on, while the other's are left as they are. If going be original mythos Rider (FSN) should be even more dangerous since she should be able to petrify anyone that she lays eyes on, regardless of magic resistance (as that isn't mentioned in the mythos), but that's never shown as an ability of hers. Saber should have several more buffs going by several other legends/interpretations of legends I've heard of her.

To be fair to him he's honestly not even the worst of the so called 'heroes' summoned (looking at you Caster (FZ)). I've basically learned to think of it as being a subtle hint of the Grail's true nature that it seemingly holds little to no moral weighing. I can't imagine having to do the research on how each hero was morally to decide who to come in and who not.

I see Gil as being the stereotype (<-- stressing this cause I don't know any personally) of the 'obnoxious drunk frat jerk', and can't wrap my head around the appeal in that.

Well I'd actually say that each of the Sabers are different people with obvious exception in the case of FZ and FSN. And Saber is always relatively restrained and not OP (Kaleid's Saber Alter probably is the closest to it). With Avalon at her side going by some interpretations she should be invincible, which would be a perfect troll towards Gilgamesh.



I'll agree on the idea of heroism being subjective at a certain level, however I'd much rather think of it as a subtle hint for the Grail's true nature.

I would say that Arthur's striving to help and protect all of his people was noble and heroic in itself, so while it limited his view it was still something noble and heroic. As for the extramarital incestuous part, as far as I've heard the mythos its always been a manipulation or charm used to cause him to fall into it.

Regardless of culture or era, I still see his actions as being repugnant. Not to mention that the Grail pulls another 'wtf' moment in FZ with its calling Caster (FZ) who actually may be more repugnant. But even then my main thing was more being baffled by how people see him in an appealing light.



Truly all should hail the King of Bros!




In any case, I think we strayed from the topic of the thread

And yes Iskander is one of the best bros out there.

And regarding Saber, yes while he/she had noble intentions, her flaws unfortunately was his/her downfall. Also, in retrospect it was somewhat unfortunate how he/she treated Mordred.

And regarding HA, what's wrong with reading it now ? Why does it have to be adapted into a anime/manga for you to enjoy it?



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Posted 12/3/14
We did stray from the topic. It is time to correct this.



A toast to Gilgamesh, The King of Heroes.
Posted 12/3/14

xCrimsonEX wrote:
His being arrogant while it does annoy me its not my main grievance with regards to him, that's the idea of raping or even owning others. I really don't care what culture or time period the character is from to me the moment rape is mentioned that character becomes immediately one that I dislike or hate. It's kinda like someone saying they find Hannibal Lecter attractive which my reaction would be: "But he eats people o.O"

The idea of a rapist even being held in the category of 'hero' doesn't sit well with me. o.O wow seems Nasu and I have similar likes then since I hold both Riders in high regard (though Saber rules as my fav throughout.)

Cultural context is important. We wouldn't consider someone like Gilgamesh a hero, but he was a hero to ancient Mesopotamians. I'm not sure about Sumer, but Babylon and Assyria were both heavily male-dominated cultures. Women were considered property of their fathers until marriage, after which they were their husbands' property. As a result, rape was a crime more on the level of theft or trespassing, and not a horrible violation. It's an attitude found that can be found in many cultures around the world, both past and present. I'd argue there are elements of it even in Western cultures today, no matter how enlightened we consider ourselves.

Does that mean Nasu had to include it? No.
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Posted 12/3/14
Whait what... Gilgamesh apears in Kaleid...
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