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Fate/Stay Night Backstage
Posted 12/3/14
Oh, right. Back on topic:

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Posted 12/3/14
Lancer died.
Posted 12/3/14
Lancer's my favorite in spite of his habit of dying.
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Posted 12/3/14
Yay! We're back on topic! Here's a bonus prototype Lancer and male Saber.

And one last thing that should be put here for comedic purposes (fanservice warning)

AUO!!!!! (((( ;°Д°))))



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Posted 12/3/14 , edited 12/4/14


Going to get rid of the spoiler bit since multi-layered spoilers tend to not work and I don't want someone stumbling onto it.



Well I think the topic of the thread strayed into Gilgamesh fan club territory anyway xD

I want his 'King' title to be 'King of Bros.', like Saber is the 'King of Knights'.

I still don't think flaws are on the same level as something like rape, where someone directly chooses to do it. Mordred got a pretty raw deal in a sense as from Arthur perspective I'd imagine he would seem like the embodiment of his weakness and his mistake thus triggering hatred, anger, and/or bitterness.

Forgot to address the last part: I prefer manga/anime because they show the characters and events rather than expecting you to imagine them yourself (and possibly get the imagery wrong); Also manga/anime tend to be able to refine characters making them stronger/better than they might've been before; and lastly because manga/anime tend to go for a singular path style rather than branched thus giving you a solid story instead of multiple possible paths.



As far as my view on it goes cultural context doesn't mean anything. I still find rape repugnant and anyone that does it worthy of dying a dog's death, regardless of the culture around it. Now the people of the time, sure it'd adjust their view on the idea, just not my own.

I assume Nasu added it to highlight Gilgamesh being a villain. "This guy is threatening to rape someone, he's not a good person." type of thing.


IngramIV wrote:

Wait what... Gilgamesh apears in Kaleid...


Yes, though its a more reined in version of him and in a chibi form. Though I don't think the anime has gotten to that point yet, it should be in the upcoming season though so can look forward to it
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Posted 12/3/14
My head just boom. Not sure if happy or else because fan service?
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Posted 12/3/14

IngramIV wrote:

My head just boom. Not sure if happy or else because fan service?


huh?
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Posted 12/3/14

xCrimsonEX wrote:

I'll agree on the idea of heroism being subjective at a certain level, however I'd much rather think of it as a subtle hint for the Grail's true nature.

Regardless of culture or era, I still see his actions as being repugnant. Not to mention that the Grail pulls another 'wtf' moment in FZ with its calling Caster (FZ) who actually may be more repugnant. But even then my main thing was more being baffled by how people see him in an appealing light.



To be fair, Gilgamesh did protect his people, defeated their enemies, scared away the gods, and brought his people to the first elements of civilization. Not saying he's a nice guy, but to his people, he'd definitely qualify as a hero.

While he's probably the worst from a modern standpoint, as has been pointed out, many of the other servants committed "unforgivable acts" in their life. Hercules killed a man basically just for pissing him off. Arturia killed her own child. Cu Chulainn, on multiple occasions, was guilty of what would today be called "date rape". Iskander enslaved entire cities of people. Lancelot cuckolded his lord, effectively destroying the kingdom in the process. Medusa...well, all I can say is, poor Medusa. She really was only a victim.

The rules under which the Grail operate are odd; basically, the only qualifier to be called a hero is that the person is acclaimed by enough people as a hero. In other words, it isn't your deeds, but people's perception of them. You're also more powerful in a land where you're considered a hero than in a land where nobody's heard of you; and your power is based on a combination of what you could really do in life, and what people thought you could do in legend. Incidentally, this is exactly the way that Aleister Crowley's rules governing magic work.

Basically, the only modification to the true nature of the Grail was that it could now summon legendary beings that weren't aligned "good" by Dungeons and Dragons standards, and, within the story, Gilgamesh is considered Chaotic Good. In other words, in his mind, all the rape and the murder is fine, because he's doing it in order to make the world better. Screwed up, I know, but alignment is actually a factor of mental state, not your actions.

If it makes you feel better, this has been a long-running topic of debate in F/SN fandom, and a large number of fans question the alignment. I don't think its wrong to question it; I see the reasoning behind Nasu's choice, but I probably would have written him as Chaotic Neutral (what non-D&D players would call a "sociopath").

To your last point...I honestly have never really gotten the appeal of Gilgamesh. Then again...I don't know if you heard, but Charles Manson just got engaged to be married. People out there are into all types of things. I usually just leave it be.
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Posted 12/3/14 , edited 12/3/14

IngramIV wrote:

Whait what... Gilgamesh apears in Kaleid...


Yea he should come in somewhere around the end of the next season. Read the Manga, If they keep going with this 10 episode thing then It's about 3 seasons ahead and it got pretty intense.
The season that just ended is about the midway point of 2wei about chapter 14 I think and 2wei has 27 chapters. The manga is now in chapter 25 of 3rei so yea it is probably about 30 episodes ahead right now.
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Posted 12/3/14

xCrimsonEX wrote:

-sigh- I will never understand the appeal of that guy thinks he has the right to own people, has and threatens to rape again if someone meets his fancy, and is overly arrogant. With exception to chibi-one which I actually find decent because he's more toned down.


Neither will I. I absolutely despise him, my main reason is pretty biased but even if that hadn't happened I still wouldn't like him.

But when did he rape someone? I can't remember.
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Posted 12/3/14 , edited 12/4/14


That's what I mean by it being subjective, to his people he may have been a hero but to me he isn't at least in this -verse anyway.

The main thing for me is that while Hercules (and the others) may, just cause I haven't read the mythos only seen the story in modern takes of it, have done so its not brought up (that I know of) in this -verse, whereas with Gilgamesh he himself brings it in and in doing show proves he hasn't changed. In Arturia's defense it was on a battlefield where said kid was trying to kill her. Damn if the Medusa thing doesn't grind my nerves every time I remember it, just because for so long I was one of the ones thinking she was just a monster.

The way you describe 'chaotic-good' pushes him further towards being like Makishima (not important just something I made a mental note of.) Honestly take out the bit about rape and it'd make him at least tolerable for me, as chibi-Gil shows. What makes me feel better:


I assume it has to do with a) his looks and b) his arrogance coming off as confidence.


He doesn't actually get to go through with it but in the Deen anime
I think even in Fate/Zero there might've been some of it but I can't remember.

From what I've gathered his mythos also mentions it but I don't know too much about that.
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Posted 12/4/14

xCrimsonEX wrote:


Now that's not fair -_-




He doesn't actually get to go through with it but in the Deen anime he threatens to basically rape Saber. I can't recall his exact words but it was something to that effect. Basically if Shirou and Saber hadn't pushed him back it was what he planned to do to her or if Saber lost in their final fight rather than to kill her. I think even in Fate/Zero there might've been some of it but I can't remember.

From what I've gathered his mythos also mentions it but I don't know too much about that.


I don't think I ever remember him mentioning rape. I know he says he wants to own her because he regards her the highest of treasures. So basically he just treats her like an object to add to his collection. If he did I don't remember.

His worse qualities are going to be more apparent in this route where he basically

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Posted 12/4/14 , edited 12/4/14

kingcity20 wrote:

-snipped cause if not spoiler tag won't work-

Now that's not fair -_-


I have little to no sympathy for woobies that won't even try.





He doesn't say it directly instead choosing to imply it by saying how he'll make Saber his even if she resists (an allusion to rape), which causes Shirou to become enraged and trying to charge at him. I believe later during Saber and Gilgamesh's duel he again alludes to taking her as his if he wins their match. Is he explicit or direct about it? No, but the implication is there.

To go with tvtropes (easiest place for me to find with other source):


Attempted Rape: Even if he never actually succeeds, it's made very, very clear that he intends to have his way with Saber. One of the verbs he uses in Japanese even means both "to trap" and "to rape", and his description of what he's going to do with Saber once he beats her is pretty sickening.
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Posted 12/4/14

kingcity20 wrote:

I don't think I ever remember him mentioning rape. I know he says he wants to own her because he regards her the highest of treasures. So basically he just treats her like an object to add to his collection. If he did I don't remember.

His worse qualities are going to be more apparent in this route where he basically



I might be misremembering, but I think he talks about "breaking her will" or something similar. I don't think he ever explicitly mentions rape, but I'd say its pretty clearly implied that he intends to make her his, however he needs. I think that actually was more prominent in Fate/Zero though.


xCrimsonEX wrote:

That's what I mean by it being subjective, to his people he may have been a hero but to me he isn't at least in this -verse anyway.

The main thing for me is that while Hercules (and the others) may, just cause I haven't read the mythos only seen the story in modern takes of it, have done so its not brought up (that I know of) in this -verse, whereas with Gilgamesh he himself brings it in and in doing show proves he hasn't changed. In Arturia's defense it was on a battlefield where said kid was trying to kill her. Damn if the Medusa thing doesn't grind my nerves every time I remember it, just because for so long I was one of the ones thinking she was just a monster.


In another post you brought it up, but I'm pretty sure that Gilgamesh is shown in the story to be someone who isn't above slaughtering/enslaving/raping his enemies and innocents because he's the villain of the story. If Nasu wanted to make him a nice guy, it would've been fairly easy; just ignore the negatives in his story and most people would be none the wiser. Unsurprisingly, none of the writers involved in the Fate works spend a lot of time focused on the nasty stuff in the "good" characters' past, and, in the case of Saber, they deliberately make King Arthur less of a jerk than he was in the classic lore (although a *lot* of stories in the modern era do that, so its entirely possible they really didn't know better).
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Posted 12/4/14 , edited 12/4/14


I mentioned somewhere I think in this thread that I thought the reason that trait was kept was to make it clear that he wasn't a good guy and was supposed to be seen as a villain. And if you don't get that message in Fate the UBW arc rams the message into your heart because of a specific scene I won't go into detail on.

I actually prefer that the more negative aspects of the heroes are forgotten so that only the heroic traits that should be looked up to are highlighted, though on that same token I think that the so called 'monsters' should be given more sympathy in their stories too.
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