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Fate/Stay Night Backstage
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Posted 12/4/14 , edited 12/4/14

farispie wrote:
-snip-


She has smaller methods of pushing back. Would they work? Maybe not. Would her trying to do something be better than being curled up in a corner? Yes.

I wouldn't blame her or hold her in too negative of a light if in order to take her revenge she took down a few innocent people. Instead of just enduring in hopes of a normal life.

Whether it goes well or not isn't the point, its the idea of just showing some fight.

a) the VN would require trusting a download site and b) novels aren't my thing and usually bore me. Manga and anime also show you the events and characters instead of relying on each person's imagination. The most recent example of this for me is Assassin's Creed IV novel which I read through, then when I started going through the actual game it turned out I had a completely different idea of the characters. Ofc all this being said I'm not saying I'll never read the VN, just that a) it may not be the best thing for me and b) its not at the front of my list of things to do.

Getting satisfaction from revenge + freedom from her torture + the knowledge that she'd have removed a scum of the world from the world = worth it.

Its more noble and worthy of respect to strive for freedom and die, than to simply put up with the torture and hope for a normal life at some point. Why are revolutionary leaders usually held highly? Because they saw an injustice/wrong being done and instead of just going with it they rose up and fought against it.

'Fight' isn't the term I'd use. She gave up and allowed those around her to do as they pleased in the hopes that eventually she'd get a normal life (which will never happen regardless.)

She had the option to fight back in some way or to seek help, instead she chose to not say anything and to instead let it continue. I'd hand that rape victim a baseball bat and teach them how to use it to maximum effect; or I'd take them to the nearest police station and have them report it. I wouldn't simply say for them to not do anything and to go on with their lives as if nothing had happened.

Considering this is in her character profile on tvtropes:

and the fact she fits most of the woobie descriptors I'm sticking with the descriptor.



kingcity20 wrote:
-snip-


I'd suggest not trying to give an opinion on my level of information.

Shirou's complex is the desire to save others, Sakura is a damsel in distress needing to be saved thus playing right into his complex.

And what does Rin being the one to save her have to do with Sakura playing into Shirou's complex? It just means that Shirou didn't get to fulfill it, doesn't mean change the fact Sakura plays into it.

No, Saber doesn't want to be protected or saved thus pushing against his complex. She forces him to realize that he should fight alongside others not in front of them. Their ideals aren't wrong and should be something most heroes (arguably people in general) should aim for.

I was going on what someone else had mentioned about her killing Shinji. At least his death not causing her to breakdown gives her some credit.

Could she do it? Yes. Did I say she'd get away with it? No, but at least she'd a) have the knowledge that she fought back, b) have her revenge on Shinji at least and c) would for a brief time have freedom from torture.

There's a difference between suicide and dying while fighting for freedom. The worst choice she could make she did, simply enduring it all and doing nothing. Fighting against an injustice or for freedom is something that is respectable and noble, just look at certain historical cultural heroes that did just that rather than go with the status quo. She's not even close to the strongest, strength is actually having the will to change something that may be even bigger than you. Its not accepting it as it is and enduring it for however long you can.

Victim blaming, are you fking serious? You're talking to someone that holds rape as the highest atrocity someone can do to someone else. Someone that thinks that people who perpetrate said act are complete scum and should be locked in cages and have the key tossed away. Someone that would rather have no victims and instead have people that successfully fought away attackers. Someone that'd rather have justice done than to have a victim act like nothing ever happened and allow the rapist to possibly do it to someone else. Don't come at me with this b.s.


Acyrra wrote:

Is Fate/Stay Night good? I was going to check it out.... so just wondering


If you mean 06 anime I'd say try it out, its not everyone's cup of tea but its worth it to try it out and see.
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Posted 12/4/14 , edited 12/4/14

xCrimsonEX wrote:


farispie wrote:
-snip-


She has smaller methods of pushing back. Would they work? Maybe not. Would her trying to do something be better than being curled up in a corner? Yes.

I wouldn't blame her or hold her in too negative of a light if in order to take her revenge she took down a few innocent people. Instead of just enduring in hopes of a normal life.

Whether it goes well or not isn't the point, its the idea of just showing some fight.

a) the VN would require trusting a download site and b) novels aren't my thing and usually bore me. Manga and anime also show you the events and characters instead of relying on each person's imagination. The most recent example of this for me is Assassin's Creed IV novel which I read through, then when I started going through the actual game it turned out I had a completely different idea of the characters. Ofc all this being said I'm not saying I'll never read the VN, just that a) it may not be the best thing for me and b) its not at the front of my list of things to do.

Getting satisfaction from revenge + freedom from her torture + the knowledge that she'd have removed a scum of the world from the world = worth it.

Its more noble and worthy of respect to strive for freedom and die, than to simply put up with the torture and hope for a normal life at some point. Why are revolutionary leaders usually held highly? Because they saw an injustice/wrong being done and instead of just going with it they rose up and fought against it.

'Fight' isn't the term I'd use. She gave up and allowed those around her to do as they pleased in the hopes that eventually she'd get a normal life (which will never happen regardless.)

She had the option to fight back in some way or to seek help, instead she chose to not say anything and to instead let it continue. I'd hand that rape victim a baseball bat and teach them how to use it to maximum effect; or I'd take them to the nearest police station and have them report it. I wouldn't simply say for them to not do anything and to go on with their lives as if nothing had happened.

Considering this is in her character profile on tvtropes:

and the fact she fits most of the woobie descriptors I'm sticking with the descriptor.



kingcity20 wrote:
-snip-


I'd suggest not trying to give an opinion on my level of information.

Shirou's complex is the desire to save others, Sakura is a damsel in distress needing to be saved thus playing right into his complex.

And what does Rin being the one to save her have to do with Sakura playing into Shirou's complex? It just means that Shirou didn't get to fulfill it, doesn't mean change the fact Sakura plays into it.

No, Saber doesn't want to be protected or saved thus pushing against his complex. She forces him to realize that he should fight alongside others not in front of them. Their ideals aren't wrong and should be something most heroes (arguably people in general) should aim for.

I was going on what someone else had mentioned about her killing Shinji. At least his death not causing her to breakdown gives her some credit.

Could she do it? Yes. Did I say she'd get away with it? No, but at least she'd a) have the knowledge that she fought back, b) have her revenge on Shinji at least and c) would for a brief time have freedom from torture.

There's a difference between suicide and dying while fighting for freedom. The worst choice she could make she did, simply enduring it all and doing nothing. Fighting against an injustice or for freedom is something that is respectable and noble, just look at certain historical cultural heroes that did just that rather than go with the status quo. She's not even close to the strongest, strength is actually having the will to change something that may be even bigger than you. Its not accepting it as it is and enduring it for however long you can.

Victim blaming, are you fking serious? You're talking to someone that holds rape as the highest atrocity someone can do to someone else. Someone that thinks that people who perpetrate said act are complete scum and should be locked in cages and have the key tossed away. Someone that would rather have no victims and instead have people that successfully fought away attackers. Someone that'd rather have justice done than to have a victim act like nothing ever happened and allow the rapist to possibly do it to someone else. Don't come at me with this b.s.


Acyrra wrote:

Is Fate/Stay Night good? I was going to check it out.... so just wondering


If you mean 06 anime I'd say try it out, its not everyone's cup of tea but its worth it to try it out.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, lets agree to disagree on Sakura then. I guess our idea of what a "fight" means in that kind of situation is different. And let me get this straight, now you are a fan of Shirou's "save the many without sacrificing the few" , yet you are okay with Sakura "killing innocent people in order to save herself" ?

And I personally think you are victim blaming. You are after all blaming the victim for "not doing anything" and "letting herself being used". You make it sound like abused victims killing their abusers is an easy willy nilly feat. Victims of abuse are often indoctrinated and fear their abusers due to a life time of abuse. Its not something "that can simply be done". And again, (this is again a personal sentiment), but I think it takes stronger character to move on with their lives and try to be happy, than simply to kill your abusers (knowing that you will die in the process). I feel like its "losing to abuse and despair".

And, fuwanovel is the most trusted site for downloading vns. Not once I ever heard anyone get a virus from downloading vns from there

. And that's the great thing about visual novels though, it has the "visual " aspect that the manga/anime do (although not to the same extent of course). It comes with cgs, animations, sound effects, music, voice acting etc. And honestly, in terms of character interpretation, visual novels often let you hear the characters thoughts and the reasons they do what they do in good detail (often due to the first person perspective of the visual novels). There are also background cgs that show you exactly how the place in question looks like. Really, most of the time, the anime adaptation's interpretation of the events is very much alike to how I pictured it based on the visual novel's text.

Regarding, Shirou, I won't go into details, but at that point in time, Shirou had a decision "Save Sakura, and instead let the rest of the world die/suffer" or "Kill Sakura, and save everyone".

Of course Shirou's ideal being "Must save everyone without cost". Of course if Shirou chooses choice A (save Sakura), he has to make the choice of "Save sakura, and sacrifice the rest of the world" or choice B : "Save the rest of the world, but kill Sakura". In both cases, Shirou can't "save everyone", at least when he was making the choice at the time. And when he does make either choice, he notably changes incredibly so.



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Posted 12/4/14 , edited 12/4/14


You are completely misinformed and trying to argue with a vague understanding, assumptions, and "what someone else told you." That's if you don't completely make stuff up.

Shirou's Hero complex is NOT saving people. It's getting through things without ANYONE being sacrificed. Don't know where you got this one from, but it's completely untrue. Since sacrificing one person to save another goes completely against his Ideals.

Shirou's and Saber's Ideals are wrong because they are unrealistic and will only lead to self destruction. Hero's can strive for these ideals but it's never going to get anywhere other than a realization that they failed.

You are victim blaming, saying she's at fault because she didn't do anything, saying she's at fault because she let it happen. That is exactly what victim blaming is. You can preach that you don't want there to be victims at all however much you want. If there is a victim it is because they allowed it according to you. <----- VICTIM BLAMING

Not only that, you condoned Murder and Suicide as a way out for the "satisfaction" of revenge. Who the hell cares about revenge if you die? It's both pointless and stupid.
Staying alive is better than dying EVERYTIME. Fighting for freedom is different than fighting even though it's 100% certain that you are going to die. In her case she was going to die if she did anything, it's not fighting for freedom it's suicide. So no don't try to justify it.

Seriously I don't even know why you try to argue, you don't even know 10% of the story. The entire route is about Rin and Sakura, of course Rin saving her matters.

Oh wait i'm probably going to be called an elitist now since I know the entire story, and not just a synopsis. Eeh oh well, i'm done arguing.
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Posted 12/4/14

You're talking to someone that holds rape as the highest atrocity someone can do to someone else. Someone that would rather have no victims and instead have people that successfully fought away attackers.


I just want to clarify the thing about rape. It's really hard for women to fight back against men. Especially when they try to resist, their genitals clench which makes it hurt a lot more for them and makes the attacker enjoy it more so yeah. Just saying.
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Posted 12/4/14
ANNNNNND back to the important stuff:


#queenofkings


And this:

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Posted 12/4/14 , edited 12/4/14

xCrimsonEX wrote:


Hold on, is your argument seriously that given the option of being sexually abused or fighting back and being murdered, the latter is the better choice?

Okay, maybe I misread that; sorry if I did. Still, you're talking about a 2nd year high school student who, from elementary school age, was brainwashed, tortured, and physically and sexually assaulted...and can be killed via magic whenever her abuser wants to do so. Based on case histories involving that degree of abuse, the fact that she doesn't speak in baby talk and isn't terrified of loud noises is an indicator that she's a strong person. She's very obviously psychologically traumatized; she doesn't fight back because she has no reason to think it would help. That is a common pathology of child sexual abuse victims.

And you know what? She doesn't fight back because of the abuse. She's so traumatized that she expects the abuse. She fights back because Shinji threatens to tell Shirou that he's been having sex with Sakura. The trauma from that threat generates so much fear in her that she goes insane, gets possessed by "all the evil in the world" and nearly destroys all of humankind. That is what she got for fighting back; it isn't a choice between taking the abuse or fighting back and maybe dying. But, still, Shinji's dead, so everything's better, right?

Seriously, asking why the victim of child sexual abuse didn't fight back?
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Posted 12/4/14
I really like this find

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Posted 12/4/14


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Posted 12/4/14
i'm almost kinda trying, really.

I has computer now, but downloading Fate/Stay Night is neigh impossible. IT MAKES NO SENSE!
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Wait...so I just realized that your avatar is Rule 63 Gilgamesh, Kirei, and Tokiomi...wow wtf.
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Posted 12/4/14 , edited 12/4/14

farispie wrote:

Well, lets agree to disagree on Sakura then.

Let's settle on this before I end up losing my temper, which being accused of 'victim blaming' is liable to do. Expecting someone to show some will to fight back, is not the same thing as 'victim blaming'. "She was asking for it because she wore that high cut skirt." <----this is victim blaming.

On the aspect of 'dying to obtain a change or to right an injustice' I again point to revolutionary type heroes of the past, that did exactly that.


And, fuwanovel is the most trusted site for downloading vns. Not once I ever heard anyone get a virus from downloading vns from there.

Yeah, and I had a favorite anime watching site that was great till the one day I happened to be unlucky enough to run across a virus that ended up killing that comp, so I'm not as eager to jump into sites.



And that's the great thing about visual novels though, it has the "visual " aspect that the manga/anime do (although not to the same extent of course). It comes with cgs, animations, sound effects, music, voice acting etc. And honestly, in terms of character interpretation, visual novels often let you hear the characters thoughts and the reasons they do what they do in good detail (often due to the first person perspective of the visual novels). There are also background cgs that show you exactly how the place in question looks like. Really, most of the time, the anime adaptation's interpretation of the events is very much alike to how I pictured it based on the visual novel's text.


Again I'd rather see the actions put into either art panels or animated scenes, to actually see them not to see my interpretation of them. In my AC:IV example, I didn't want to imagine my interpretation of how things looked but rather see them or how attacks looked. I never put an accent on the MC, but after hearing his VA in the game I love the accent again something I never would've put to him cause it never would've crossed my mind. And really the whole thing is more geared toward people that enjoy novels, I get bored with novels and tend to only read them when travelling (why it took me months to finish the ACIV novel). Will I concretely say I won't read the VN? No, I may if things line up the right way but I don't have any plans to rush into it. You want an even better reason for me to be wary of reading the VN, being in the same group as the tool quoted below yours. That in itself is enough of a reason to push me away.



Regarding, Shirou, I won't go into details, but at that point in time, Shirou had a decision "Save Sakura, and instead let the rest of the world die/suffer" or "Kill Sakura, and save everyone".

Of course Shirou's ideal being "Must save everyone without cost". Of course if Shirou chooses choice A (save Sakura), he has to make the choice of "Save sakura, and sacrifice the rest of the world" or choice B : "Save the rest of the world, but kill Sakura". In both cases, Shirou can't "save everyone", at least when he was making the choice at the time. And when he does make either choice, he notably changes incredibly so.



I'll reserve any kind of judgement till I get to see it play out and all of the intricacies of it in the HF movie(s), though I have a feeling it plays out in a similar vein as in




Yes, let's all bow to you Mr. All knowing one /sarcasm

Shirou's hero complex in every version I've seen has broken down to wanting to save people in an attempt to fill the void he feels and the survivor's guilt. He aims to save everyone and within that sacrificing no one. That is a repeated concept and reinforced by your fellow VN readers on several forums, reinforcing that interpretation.

The ideal of striving to save all is not wrong. Is it possible to achieve? Probably not, but its still something that should be aimed for and only later adjusted to what is possible. Kiritsugu aimed to try to pick and choose and still failed and was crushed.

"She deserves it because she got drunk in a bar.", "She wore that low cut top so its obviously her fault.", etc that is victim blaming. Expecting someone to show some level of fight is not the same, acknowledging the fact that the perpetrators are scum and deserve punishment also breaks away from victim blaming as it places the blame on said perpetrators, expecting a victim to seek help or to report the crime also is not victim blaming. You're suggesting that instead the victims should simply try to repress and ignore, instead of try to bother fighting back or seeking help when they can't.

In Shinji and Zouken's case, you're damn right I fully support them being murdered/obliterated/killed/ any other form of the word that can be used. Again I guess revolutionary heroes are pointless and stupid, oh wait no they fking aren't. They more than not end up causing a change in the status quo because of their willingness to risk their lives for their cause. So being raped, tortured, and forced to obey whatever the man responsible for said rape and torture wants is better than trying to fight to free yourself even at the cost of your life. Yeah, this is something I will never agree with.

I try to discuss but I have a brain and knowledge of the series, I'm not a pretentious tool that thinks he is the end all be all. Let me bold this so it may fking sink in: Rin saving Sakura has no fking relation to how Sakura plays into Shirou's complex , it may be a big point of the route but it has no fking bearing on this point.

No, you're a pretentious tool that thinks he is the be all and end all and all fans should hope to arrive where you are, when oh yeah you didn't even remember that Gilgamesh repeatedly implies he plans to rape Saber. And as before we are indeed done, I don't hold conversations with pretentious tools that think they are so above everyone else.

Feel free to edit it if needed moderator, since I don't know what is okay and not. And don't worry this particular convo is over so won't have to worry about needing to mod again.
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i don't want to read those long comment though~~~ =.='
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Posted 12/5/14 , edited 12/5/14
Coming from the guy who complained about ufotable using the VN for Rin's character rather than the Deen adaptation, who hasn't actually read the VN but "heard about it from a friend" as I recall. I don't think anyone has been acting like a "know it all", it is imply that you are arguing at length about events in a VN that you admit you haven't read. Particularly Heaven's Feel which has not been adapted in any form thus far. Your lack of knowledge about the series is apparent in your arguments. Now if you choose not to like Sakura, fine. You are entitled to that opinion.

It seems you are misunderstanding something, Zouken literally has a gun to Sakura's head that he can fire at any time, for any reason. The moment she thinks about defying him she will die. There is nothing she can do about this. You keep mentioning revolutionary heroes defying authority to the death. But Sakura isn't a hero, she's just a high school girl. One of the staples of Fate Stay/Night is the brokenness of it's characters. Rin, Shirou, Saber, Archer, and Sakura, are all examples.

That's the kind of story this is. A group of broken people, living out normal looking lives while hiding their brokenness, which is all brought to the surface by the Holy Grail War. Some find resolution, some don't (sometimes depending on the route).
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Posted 12/5/14 , edited 12/5/14

Yes, let's all bow to you Mr. All knowing one /sarcasm


When 4 people are telling you the exact same things yet you continue to ignore them and pretend you know what you are talking about. Guess what. YOU'RE the pretentious one.



Shirou's hero complex in every version I've seen has broken down to wanting to save people in an attempt to fill the void he feels and the survivor's guilt. He aims to save everyone and within that sacrificing no one.

Yes this is Shirou's hero complex, which plays no part in the HF route because he completely abandons it.


The ideal of striving to save all is not wrong. Is it possible to achieve? Probably not, but its still something that should be aimed for and only later adjusted to what is possible. Kiritsugu aimed to try to pick and choose and still failed and was crushed.


Yes Kiritsugu failed, so did Archer who had the exact same ideals as shirou and saber. That's the point of the ENTIRE series, Idealist views always end in failure. An Ideal is a an unrealistic goal aimed at perfection that can never be achieved and will ultimately destroy you.
If you want i'll side with you in that the thought isn't wrong, the ideal of wanting to save everyone is not wrong but it is impossible and the way shirou and saber went about it was completely wrong.

In UBW shirou realizes the flaws of those ideals, and while he still decides to follow it. It becomes saving the most i can, instead of trying to save everyone. He realizes those ideals are impossible to achieve, so he does what is possible instead of blindly following the impossible.


"She deserves it because she got drunk in a bar.", "She wore that low cut top so its obviously her fault.", etc that is victim blaming.
Yes and so is saying, "she didn't fight back so it's her fault." "I have no sympathy for someone who won't even defend herself." (Ignoring the fact that we've stated multiple times that there was nothing she could do.)


In Shinji and Zouken's case, you're damn right I fully support them being murdered/obliterated/killed/ any other form of the word that can be used. Again I guess revolutionary heroes are pointless and stupid, oh wait no they fking aren't. They more than not end up causing a change in the status quo because of their willingness to risk their lives for their cause. So being raped, tortured, and forced to obey whatever the man responsible for said rape and torture wants is better than trying to fight to free yourself even at the cost of your life. Yeah, this is something I will never agree with.


There is a giant difference between fighting for a change that actually has a chance of succeeding, and fighting just to die. If a revolution starts and everyone dies and nothing changes, then yes it was pointless and stupid.
Sakura is trying to free herself, she was just not going to murder her brother or get herself killed in the process in order to achieve that. She waits for an opportunity that eventually arrives.


I try to discuss but I have a brain and knowledge of the series, I'm not a pretentious tool that thinks he is the end all be all.


Yet you're knowledge is minimal, and you ignore everyone else who has more knowledge then you. Remind me again what pretentious means.
"attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, knowledge, etc., than is actually possessed."
Yup the description is quite fitting of you don't you think? Actually it describes you 100%


Let me bold this so it may fking sink in: Rin saving Sakura has no fking relation to how Sakura plays into Shirou's complex , it may be a big point of the route but it has no fking bearing on this point.


If Sakura plays into Shirou's hero complex, then she also plays into riders, rins, archer, and ilya's since they all are trying to save her. Point is Sakura plays more into rins role because its HER she wants to save her and it's HER that actually does save her.
Rin is the only one sakura is angry at for never coming to rescue her, Rin is the only one sakura ever wanted help from. So no sakura doesn't play into shirous hero complex at all.
Sakura is always looking for a way out, there was absolutely no chance before all this so she never does anything. The moment she does get the chance though she goes directly to confront Zouken but shinji ambushes her and tries to rape her which is when "all the evils in the world" possesses her.
To finish it off Sakura never asks shirou to save her anyway, she never asks him for help until after the fight with rin where she regains herself. Even then she doesn't ask him to save her, she asks him to kill her because she can't control the thing that's possessing her.
She feels that she cannot be saved.
SHE'S the one trying to protect Shirou in almost every instance that she isn't possessed.

Sakura see's shirou as support because she sees him practicing and never giving up, which in turn makes her not want to give up. She admired his dedication That is it, it's not her saying "shirou come save me."
When she finally meets him it's her the one who's taking care of him, that's the whole reason she goes to his house all the time. He got into an accident, so she started going over to help him out which she continued to do so after he recovered. Wouldn't she be the one with a "hero complex" in this case?


No, you're a pretentious tool that thinks he is the be all and end all and all fans should hope to arrive where you are, when oh yeah you didn't even remember that Gilgamesh repeatedly implies he plans to rape Saber.


You see what I said about you making things up.
I never said he didn't Imply it, I don't remember him outright saying it though. He heavily implies it. He views her as an object that he wants to do whatever he wants with. He views her as a treasure for his collection.



And as before we are indeed done, I don't hold conversations with pretentious tools that think they are so above everyone else.

Feel free to edit it if needed moderator, since I don't know what is okay and not. And don't worry this particular convo is over so won't have to worry about needing to mod again.


Resorting to name calling without bases is the only thing you've proven yourself capable of.

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Came here expecting to find out about a new Fate show instead I get slapped in the face with GILGAMESH?!
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