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Is Drunken Sex Rape? Can I Yell Rape Too If I Were Drunk?
Posted 12/7/14
You might be wondering what possessed me to create such a thread. Well, I was thinking of a work where an imouto got drunk and had sexy time with her onii chan, in a passionate night of incest making. I thought about it, and said "Wouldn't this be considered rape?" Yet the way it is portrayed isn't rape, it is love making. Which made me confused. Is it only rape if she said it is rape? I mean, you do have to press charges for anyone to actually do anything.
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Posted 12/7/14 , edited 12/7/14
If you have sex with someone who is intoxicated enough to the point where that person is unable to give consent then yes it would be rape. And yes it still would be rape even if the victim drank voluntarily and that is because being raped is not something you do but something that someone else (choose to) do to you. Also I find disturbing that apparently you are more worried about being unfairly accused of rape than harm other people in orden to have sex with them even though they may be too drunked to do that.

Now putting the rape issue aside I'll never understand what is so fun about having sex while being drunked...

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Posted 12/7/14
There have been many reports of male rape. Police cant laugh in your face because rape goes both ways. Just as a girl gets aroused when shes raped doesn't mean she likes it, same for guys. They can get aroused by a girl and still say no, its just how the body reacts. But Consent is a whole different ball game. Consent has to be sober, if you are drunk even if you beg its not consent because you are not in your right mind when intoxicated. Any sex while drunk is considered rape even if both parties have had sex before or are together. So no you can not give consent while drunk under ANY circumstance and guys can get raped to, police will still help you. But the reason male rape isnt as big of a deal as female is because the effects afterward are different. A girl can get pregnant while a guy just has his parts played with, is it still wrong? YES!!! Guys get so much shit about rape but it still affects them emotionally.
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Posted 12/7/14

akai_ryu wrote:

Now putting the rape issue aside I'll never understand what is so fun about having sex while being drunked...



basically to be "raped" or "rape" according to the legal definitions.....

I'll explain.

Horribly inappropriate joke aside, it's not about getting drunk and then having loving consensual sex with your trusted partner.

it's about going out and meeting people and having sex while reserving some ways of saying "oh, I made a mistake".

Alcohol's effects on our mental facilities are fairly well known (sociologically. get into that in a moment). We don't drink before a serious meeting, and to do so is considered a major taboo because of alcohol's effect on impairing our judgement and loosening our inhibitions.

When we're in situations were we are allowed to drink however, it's expected that we will sometimes act like assholes, do things we don't mean to do, say things we don't mean to say, or conversely, can expect to hear the truth on things that we might not hear about in sober company ("in vino veritas").

Drinking is a temporary release of that constant need for sound judgement in our daily lives and the stress that accompanies it.

When we go out to drink and hope to get laid, we're hoping that our prospective partners will be less inhibited, and more likely to have sex with us. We also have that convenient cover of "we're expected to act somewhat our of character" when we drink which allows us to say those things we often don't, or confess our feelings to our secret crushes (hence alcohol's other name, "liquid courage"), and, if we aren't satisfied with our night's sexual escapades, one or the other party can conveniently excuse their behavior by saying "I'm sorry. I was drunk, I have NO IDEA why I slept with you".....


Of course this is all about societal use of alcohol.

Lately there's been a lot of studying in sociology and anthropology about how these things being more cultual norms than having anything to do withi alcohol's actual effect on the body.

http://www.peele.net/lib/sociocul.html
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/02/15/drinking-games

Theoretically the difference between this behavior and actual rape is that you're still conscious throughout the whole experience, and you admit to having chose to do so....

But yeah... the reasons we drink are eerily close to rape.
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Posted 12/8/14

serifsansserif wrote:



Dam... I wasn't expecting to need to write so much... Ok, look before I reply to you I need to clarify two things. Firstly English is no my first language so I apologize for any possible mistake with my writing. Secondly I am busy and I don't have much time, therefore this reply may be more brief than I would like and futhermore I won't be following this discussion or at least not for the following days. That being said I'll give you an answer.

I don't state it before because I wanted to be short but actually I know why many people drink before having sex. I mean, I have heard their reasons but I don't share them because I don't drink and I am not interested in dating or casual sex. However that isn't the main reason why I said I don't think drunken sex would be so enjoyable but also I said that due to the alcohol effects over the organism. As you said alcohol decrease behaviour inhibitions, wich is why many people believe mistakenly that alcohol is an aphrodisiac when actually alcohol can decrese your performance in sex, specially if you drink too much. Also if a person is drunken then he or she may don't take as many precautions against STDs and pregnament as he or she would do if was sober.


Now going back to issue about rape...

1- I don't think that being drunken is always an agreement to have sex or at least surely it isn't an agreement to have every kind of sex with everyone... And if you drink too much then you cant give consent (because alcohol affect you mental capabilities) or even you may be unconcious! Also keep in mind that someone could use alcohol or another drug in order to intoxicate you and later rape you.

2- I saw that you have said in another post that it exist a double standard regarding alcohol but I disagree. Because if you (general you) know that you have to drive then you could choose to not drink or let that a sober person drive or jus take a public transport. On other hand, as said in my previous post, being raped is not something you do but something that someone else decide to do to you. So despite that when you drink much you are putting yourself in a situation where is more likely that you may become in a rape or sexual assault victim, that is not a excuse for other peope to rape you.

3- Also you keep saying that women should be more reponsible in they want to avoid being raped. Why you don't say the same things to men? After all men could be raped while they are drunken too. But more important for you and the OP, in your view when you have drunked sex you are putting yourself in a situation where you are more likely to be "unfairly" accused of rape just because a women "changed her mind". That being the case, if you really want to decrease the odds of being "unfairly accused", shouldn't you be more carefull and avoid drunken sex?

4- I dont' think false rape accusations are so common or that if you are accused of rape you' ll be incarcelated undoubtedly as you apparently think. Unfortunately for me I don't have time for search stats. Thus I know you'll ignore this point and I couldn't criticize you for doing it. That being said...

5- What I can tell you, however, is that it isn't true that people will denfend the rape victim regardless of circustances. You can see it reading the coments in the news when a rape case happen or reading forums or blogs that talk about this issue and that includes the crunchyroll's forums. Many people actually will claim that the victim wans't carefull enough or even was askig for it or is lying about the rape. And drunken sex is a situation where many people will be more supportive with the accused than with the accuser.
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Posted 12/8/14

akai_ryu wrote:


Dam... I wasn't expecting to need to write so much... Ok, look before I reply to you I need to clarify two things. Firstly English is no my first language so I apologize for any possible mistake with my writing. Secondly I am busy and I don't have much time, therefore this reply may be more brief than I would like and futhermore I won't be following this discussion or at least not for the following days. That being said I'll give you an answer.


no worries.


akai_ryu wrote:

I don't state it before because I wanted to be short but actually I know why many people drink before having sex. I mean, I have heard their reasons but I don't share them because I don't drink and I am not interested in dating or casual sex. However that isn't the main reason why I said I don't think drunken sex would be so enjoyable but also I said that due to the alcohol effects over the organism. As you said alcohol decrease behaviour inhibitions, wich is why many people believe mistakenly that alcohol is an aphrodisiac when actually alcohol can decrese your performance in sex, specially if you drink too much. Also if a person is drunken then he or she may don't take as many precautions against STDs and pregnament as he or she would do if was sober.


My answer was kind of tongue in cheek. Not entirely sarcastic but more towards that mode of writing.

Alcohol and sex aren't the best thing to mix due to what you are saying here.

I find it hilarious that we do things to get what we want, but say we don't want them when we do, but can't express it, and so on and so on...

in the case for sex, we do things to avoid explicitly stating we want sex, because it's taboo and, once stated, cannot be undone, nor can it really be taken as a "mistake" or "just kidding". So we construct these elaborate games and methodologies to get what we want while feigning disinterest or humor until someone offers us what we want in order to basically save face.

i'm not saying rape is super awesome nor acceptable. I just mean the way we go about sex, and the ambiguity of it all, can easily lead to misunderstandings. (without alcohol) With alcohol... It just gets multiple times worse. Consent is important, but alcohol throws the ability to decide rationally and objectively out the window (not that love should be rational, but it's still a good trait to have), which makes rational consent harder. But, paradoxically, we drink so we can rid ourselves of that rationality that the law and good decision making is all about. And typically, bars are the de-facto way of meeting people, and, even when you meet people over the internet, at a coffee shop, etc. alcohol permeates our dating culture, and invariable people get drunk to do naughty things. Go figure. This is where the logical inconsistency for me is and where I have the biggest problem with dating and non-violent rape.

And nonviolent rape is where the biggest problems and debates are really. I doubt any of the alleged "rape apologists" actually are defending rapists who do violently assault and rape their victims. (yet, the people who are adamantly opposed to the "rape apologists" seem to take a straw man approach and just go straight to the "you're defending people who abuse women and rape them!!!" argument).


akai_ryu wrote:

Now going back to issue about rape...

1- I don't think that being drunken is always an agreement to have sex or at least surely it isn't an agreement to have every kind of sex with everyone... And if you drink too much then you cant give consent (because alcohol affect you mental capabilities) or even you may be unconcious! Also keep in mind that someone could use alcohol or another drug in order to intoxicate you and later rape you.


i don't disagree with you. I think the problem is when do you define someone as being capable of still making a decision and being held accountable. What level of drunkenness is it wrong to accept someone's consent. Some people say "NEVAR!!!!!" and that's fine, but then there's a whole lot of not having sex that would result. And awkwardness as we will now lawfully have to be explicit in expressing our interests in having sex with another person. So sue me. I'm pragmatic about this.


akai_ryu wrote:

2- I saw that you have said in another post that it exist a double standard regarding alcohol but I disagree. Because if you (general you) know that you have to drive then you could choose to not drink or let that a sober person drive or jus take a public transport. On other hand, as said in my previous post, being raped is not something you do but something that someone else decide to do to you. So despite that when you drink much you are putting yourself in a situation where is more likely that you may become in a rape or sexual assault victim, that is not a excuse for other peope to rape you.


But it still infers decision making and accountability. I doubt if someone's passed out and someone rapes them that anyone is going to question it as being non-consensual. it's another straw man case there.

But drunk driving? That's a case where you are incapable of making proper decisions, and are held accountable for your lack of being able to choose the right decision. To take a bus or subway while drunk infers being able to still make a rational decision. (which isn't available to everyone, and, in more rural areas, the only way to get to a bar is to drive, so if you drove there, drank (which is the purpose of the place), chances are extremely high you're going to drive home drunk).


akai_ryu wrote:
3- Also you keep saying that women should be more reponsible in they want to avoid being raped. Why you don't say the same things to men? After all men could be raped while they are drunken too. But more important for you and the OP, in your view when you have drunked sex you are putting yourself in a situation where you are more likely to be "unfairly" accused of rape just because a women "changed her mind". That being the case, if you really want to decrease the odds of being "unfairly accused", shouldn't you be more carefull and avoid drunken sex?


Yup. men and women shouldn't be drinking and fucking. If you have sex with a drunken person, you risk getting accused and sentenced of raping them. If you are said drunken person, you run the risk of getting raped because you put yourself in a situation where you couldn't decide rationally. I'm sorry for taking only one side there. The arguments tend to favor talking about the victims.


akai_ryu wrote:
4- I dont' think false rape accusations are so common or that if you are accused of rape you' ll be incarcelated undoubtedly as you apparently think. Unfortunately for me I don't have time for search stats. Thus I know you'll ignore this point and I couldn't criticize you for doing it. That being said...

No, I don't think they're that common. I don't think rape is a common enough thing to be concerned overly much with either. But with both, I think it means all concern needs to be tossed out the window. Especially when it's starting to reach hysteria levels on both sides. my arguments are more about trying to hold some ground and some rationale (which is difficult because of how heated these discussions can get). I don't like when we get to the point where just saying we're a victim can cause harm to another (and I've been in enough of those situations that it has a bit of personal meaning to me), and I don't like people being victims. In general, I personally find I can overcome my own victimhood more often than not, and really hate broad sweeping vindictiveness.)


akai_ryu wrote:
5- What I can tell you, however, is that it isn't true that people will denfend the rape victim regardless of circustances. You can see it reading the coments in the news when a rape case happen or reading forums or blogs that talk about this issue and that includes the crunchyroll's forums. Many people actually will claim that the victim wans't carefull enough or even was askig for it or is lying about the rape. And drunken sex is a situation where many people will be more supportive with the accused than with the accuser.


This is difficult... *sigh*
I don't care for when people outright saying someone was lying. Every case needs to be investigated. When someone does something incredibly boneheaded or something that flies in the face of common sense.... It's hard to sit there and defend that they had no guilt. It's about the overarching question of when personal accountability comes into play with someone's actions and the consequences. If I were to work with strong chemicals in an enclosed room with no ventilation, and I get poisoned due to it, am I accountable? If I order a hot coffee and spill it on myself, is it my fault or is it the fault of the purveyor for making it too hot? Personal accountability is something that's becoming more and more of the forefront of a lot of questions and problems in society today, and it applies to everything including finances, jobs, lawsuits, healthcare, laws, etc. And the funny thing about it is, if you aren't held accountable for your actions or the actions brought forth upon you BECAUSE of your own actions at least to some degree, it's assuming you are incapable of making decisions, and essentially it's treating you and everyone else in an infantile way. I'm not a big one on treating people like infants, but it feels like a lot of people want to be treated as such. I don't know what else to say. (Again, this is about more than just rape with what I said above).

When it applies to instances of rape, the claims should be processed just the same. It's just hard to defend someone who dresses provocatively, acts provocatively, gets drunk, and is in a not so nice area where bad things happen. The question that usually is asked is "Well what the hell did you expect!??!?!?!?!" because most rational people would consider that a "bad idea". It's like pushing the big red button when there's a giant sign that says "DO NOT PUSH THE BIG RED BUTTON OR YOU WILL DIE A PAINFUL DEATH AS A PIANO WILL FALL ON TOP OF YOU AND CRUSH YOU"

People will still do it. And then someone still will have to defend the rights of the victim... but it's just....hard...
Posted 12/10/14

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

One of the reason I worry is because women will literally scream rape if depending on who the person they slept with was. Rape accusations don't need to rest on how handsome the guy is.


if you just slept on like a baby you wouldn't have a problem. what does she remember? as long as you insist that you remember it differently, no one will care.
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Posted 12/10/14 , edited 10/20/15

serifsansserif wrote:

When it applies to instances of rape, the claims should be processed just the same. It's just hard to defend someone who dresses provocatively, acts provocatively, gets drunk, and is in a not so nice area where bad things happen. The question that usually is asked is "Well what the hell did you expect!??!?!?!?!" because most rational people would consider that a "bad idea". It's like pushing the big red button when there's a giant sign that says "DO NOT PUSH THE BIG RED BUTTON OR YOU WILL DIE A PAINFUL DEATH AS A PIANO WILL FALL ON TOP OF YOU AND CRUSH YOU"

People will still do it. And then someone still will have to defend the rights of the victim... but it's just....hard...
You are a real piece of work.

You are not responsible for an agreement you never gave consent to. The only thing that's hard here is that head of yours.
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Posted 12/10/14

FlyinDumpling wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:

When it applies to instances of rape, the claims should be processed just the same. It's just hard to defend someone who dresses provocatively, acts provocatively, gets drunk, and is in a not so nice area where bad things happen. The question that usually is asked is "Well what the hell did you expect!??!?!?!?!" because most rational people would consider that a "bad idea". It's like pushing the big red button when there's a giant sign that says "DO NOT PUSH THE BIG RED BUTTON OR YOU WILL DIE A PAINFUL DEATH AS A PIANO WILL FALL ON TOP OF YOU AND CRUSH YOU"

People will still do it. And then someone still will have to defend the rights of the victim... but it's just....hard...
You are a real piece of work.

You are not responsible for an agreement you never gave consent to. The only thing that's hard here is that head of yours.


I believe you always consent to putting yourself in the situations you often find yourself in. Whereas I have sympathy for people who are tricked or who are taken advantage of, getting drunk and hanging out in the bad part of town with a buy that's nickname is "mike the rapist" is probably not a smart idea, and one you shouldn't put yourself in. I'm not going too walk around Oakland carrying a sign with racist epithets and assume I'll make it out just A-ok. Or visit Palestine and loudly proclaim "I'M JEWISH AND PROUD OF IT!!!". If I was a black man, I sure as shit wouldn't be hanging around a known Klan area, and if I was gay, I wouldn't be telling everyone in a fundamentalist church.

AND if I was a woman, I sure as hell wouldn't be flaunting my junk while getting shitfaced in a bar. Just as I'm not going to start picking fights while getting shitfaced in a bar either. I'm sorry. There's consequences to actions and while I obviously don't think it's ever ok to rape someone, I definitely don't think that it's a good idea to do things that put you into a situation where stupid shit happens.
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Posted 12/10/14 , edited 10/20/15

serifsansserif wrote:

I believe you always consent to putting yourself in the situations you often find yourself in. Whereas I have sympathy for people who are tricked or who are taken advantage of, getting drunk and hanging out in the bad part of town with a buy that's nickname is "mike the rapist" is probably not a smart idea, and one you shouldn't put yourself in. I'm not going too walk around Oakland carrying a sign with racist epithets and assume I'll make it out just A-ok. Or visit Palestine and loudly proclaim "I'M JEWISH AND PROUD OF IT!!!". If I was a black man, I sure as shit wouldn't be hanging around a known Klan area, and if I was gay, I wouldn't be telling everyone in a fundamentalist church.

AND if I was a woman, I sure as hell wouldn't be flaunting my junk while getting shitfaced in a bar. Just as I'm not going to start picking fights while getting shitfaced in a bar either. I'm sorry. There's consequences to actions and while I obviously don't think it's ever ok to rape someone, I definitely don't think that it's a good idea to do things that put you into a situation where stupid shit happens.
You really are a piece of work.

Wearing a dress, dancing and drinking at a club and doing club-like things is not an invitation to be sexually assaulted. Stop with the exaggerated hypotheticals. The topic was specifically about whether having sex with a drunk person is rape. All these other elements you are adding are only creating an imaginary person in your head that you used to generalize drunk rape victims with.
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Posted 12/10/14

FlyinDumpling wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:

I believe you always consent to putting yourself in the situations you often find yourself in. Whereas I have sympathy for people who are tricked or who are taken advantage of, getting drunk and hanging out in the bad part of town with a buy that's nickname is "mike the rapist" is probably not a smart idea, and one you shouldn't put yourself in. I'm not going too walk around Oakland carrying a sign with racist epithets and assume I'll make it out just A-ok. Or visit Palestine and loudly proclaim "I'M JEWISH AND PROUD OF IT!!!". If I was a black man, I sure as shit wouldn't be hanging around a known Klan area, and if I was gay, I wouldn't be telling everyone in a fundamentalist church.

AND if I was a woman, I sure as hell wouldn't be flaunting my junk while getting shitfaced in a bar. Just as I'm not going to start picking fights while getting shitfaced in a bar either. I'm sorry. There's consequences to actions and while I obviously don't think it's ever ok to rape someone, I definitely don't think that it's a good idea to do things that put you into a situation where stupid shit happens.
You really are a piece of work.

Wearing a dress, dancing and drinking at a club and doing club-like things is not an invitation to be sexually assaulted. Stop with the exaggerated hypotheticals. The topic was specifically about whether having sex with a drunk person is rape. All these other elements you are adding are only creating an imaginary person in your head that you used to generalize drunk rape victims with.


I give up. You're as absolutely stubborn as I am.
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Posted 12/10/14 , edited 10/20/15

serifsansserif wrote:

I give up. You're as absolutely stubborn as I am.
Good, I have one less moron to deal with on this site.
Posted 12/10/14 , edited 12/10/14
The solution to this problem is quite simple.

Don't drink and have sex.

To answer your question though.. No, it doesn't work if you're a guy. That only works for females for some reason. If you're a guy, forget it. You need to be responsible about how much you drink and what happens to you if you're too drunk to remember.
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Posted 12/10/14

FlyinDumpling wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:

I give up. You're as absolutely stubborn as I am.
Good, I have one less moron to deal with on this site.


personal attacks?

I thought you would take the high ground, with all that self inflated moral superiority you use to build that pedestal you stand upon?
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Posted 12/11/14 , edited 12/11/14


I agree in certain way about what you are saying. Sex and alcohol aren't the best mix and the last complicate the consent issue. However as alcohol permeates our culture, not just dating, and therefore alcohol consumption is not just encouraged but expected in many social situations, and as also there is presure in our society about getting laid, many people people see alcohol as good way of increase the odds of have more and "better" sex (and of course the fact that many people like mix alcohol with other drugs don't make the things more easy). Thus this debate will be complicated while that views don't chage.


But it still infers decision making and accountability. I doubt if someone's passed out and someone rapes them that anyone is going to question it as being non-consensual. it's another straw man case there.


That was no mi intent. Keep in mind I was always talking in general about rape wich involve alcohol. Futhermore, in a few ocasions I have heard some people question the no consensuality of have sex with someone who has passed out, wich is why I had say it before.

I think that accountability is only doubful if the accused is intoxicate too. If he or she isnt the he/she is definitily renposible. I'll say more about accountability below.


But drunk driving? That's a case where you are incapable of making proper decisions, and are held accountable for your lack of being able to choose the right decision. To take a bus or subway while drunk infers being able to still make a rational decision.

Yeah, you are incapable of making proper decisions while you are drunk however I think it is a case where you can take some precautions. I doubt that if you go to place, where you know you'll drink, without your own car then you go back driving for instance.

(which isn't available to everyone, and, in more rural areas, the only way to get to a bar is to drive, so if you drove there, drank (which is the purpose of the place), chances are extremely high you're going to drive home drunk).

Which is why I said you could not drink if you know you'll have to drive or let that a sober person drive. Though I know there would not be many people willing to do that for the reasons I stated above about our culture and alcohol.



Well, I think we'll agree to disagree here because I think one can be renposible of their own actions only. I don' think that your analogy with the hypothetical red button would be really comparable because in this example there isn't a third person deciding to harm other people. Also while I couldn't agree with something or everything that the victim may did, the rapist should take responsability over their own actions and choices instead of point at the victim behaviour in orden to excuse their crime. But it is not just about rape. I just don't think that certain acts, as rape, murder or mug for instance, should get a free pass just becausse the victim wasn't carefull enough or was too naive or whatever. That meas, I don't care much about what did or did not the victim, I may or may not agree with their decisions for a reason or another, but in the end they aren't my choices. In the end, the victim did their choices, so did the criminal and the last is the only thing that really matter for me.

For another hand, while I don' think that wont be a bad idea that our society examine their relationship with alcohol, I doubt however that if in a hypothetical future most people don't like mix alcohol with sex, the rape decreases significantly because I don't regard that alcohol is a primary cause in the rape, wich involve it but also is a toll easyly available and convenient that some rapist choose to rape and if they can't use alcohol in a way or another then they will find another way to rape because I think most rape are premeditated.


Finally, if you don't mind if neither you nor me have more thing to add to this debate then I'll quit this talk because I don't like when both parts in disscusion repeat the same thing in diferent ways over and over again.


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