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Japan, America, and War
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M / New Jersey
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Posted 12/6/14

teknomanslade wrote:
We even warned them we had the bomb.


FWIW the warnings were ambiguous. Prior to Hiroshima, there was no specific mention of an atomic bomb, and the propaganda warnings could have been anything from continued fire-bombing or invasion. Only after the first bomb was dropped was there a specific warning about the atomic bomb. By then it was pretty much too late.
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Posted 12/6/14
The US won that war and the bombing of japan was premeditated. WWII was a mess for everyone except the US and Russia. In Europe no one was a winner. England go destroyed, Poland was destroyed Germany, Italy etc. The only two winners of the war were the US and Russia. The US wanted to nuke japan they they goaded them and poked them so they would attack and this has been proven. They killed way too many innocent people who had nothing to do with the "attack" on pearl harbor. It was basically like a big bully making fun a little kid because he wants to beat him up but not take the first hit. It was heinous and an example of how far the US will go for greed and power. The US isn't the hero stop daydreaming this is the world and this is global power and no one is a hero. There are only losers aka civilians like you, me and the lost lives in Japan/ others in wars. War is a cash cow and the US seized that opportunity.
And the US was not on their toes doing the cold war they were currently creating the mess we know now as most of Africa with Russia. Where do you think the weapons for all civil wars in Africa came from?
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Posted 12/6/14 , edited 12/6/14
WW2 was not a mess for Russia? Tell that to the over twenty four million people who died there due to that war.
This thread contains some of the most ignorant views of history I have ever read.

BTW, going back a few posts, inferring that the Emperor was the instigator of the war is grossly unfair. Although revered, at this time he did not possess the political power to have done so.
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23 / M / Saint Charles, Mi...
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Posted 12/6/14
That figure is the high end of both bombings; the US killed more in a single "firebombing" raid on Tokyo - "Operation Meetinghouse" ... The figure is 88,000 to 129,000 casualties and 240,000+ homes and structures destroyed. Note on this topic, this is something very difficult for any of us to understand; this would truly be something we would have needed to be part of. All we can do is look up history and try to interpret what happen and why, but we may not get an answer. But hopefully, those memories in history books will help us avoid it again. And to an extent I think we will, but I also believe in my lifetime there will be another true "war", not "aggressive security actions" or whatever. And something similar but different to these events will happen all over again. On the 40th anniversary of the battle of Iwo Jima, American and Japanese veterans met again on these same sands, this time in peace and friendship. We commemorate our comrades, living and dead, who fought here with bravery and honor, and we pray together that our sacrifices on Iwo Jima will always be remembered and never be repeated." - Iwo Jima Island memorial from 40th anniversary.
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26 / M / Sierra-Tango-Lima
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Posted 12/6/14 , edited 12/7/14
My father took a trip to Japan while he was stationed in Korea in 1970. While he was there he had the opportunity to speak with local college students who wanted to brush up on their English. They were very eager to talk with him as it was apparently their first time conversing with an American. They showed him around their campus and took him out for lunch. He eventually asked them how they could be so friendly with someone from a country that nuked them not once but twice. The response he got from these kids surprised him. At the height of Imperial Japans power the emperor was considered a god and it was the national duty to stay the course no matter the consequence even if it meant annihilation. The students said that if it were not for the nukes a full scale land invasion by the Americans was inevitable potentially costing far more lives on both sides. It would have devastated the mainland. Their logic stated that with the sacrifice of two cities a nation was saved by doing so. Interesting perspective.
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Posted 12/6/14 , edited 12/6/14

CamCab04 wrote:


The US won that war and the bombing of japan was premeditated. WWII was a mess for everyone except the US and Russia. In Europe no one was a winner. England go destroyed, Poland was destroyed Germany, Italy etc. The only two winners of the war were the US and Russia.
First, by your way of thinking Russia was not a winner of WWII they had over 24 million only about 10 million of them being military.

The US wanted to nuke japan they they goaded them and poked them so they would attack and this has been proven.
I would like a link to the "proof" please.

They killed way too many innocent people who had nothing to do with the "attack" on pearl harbor. It was basically like a big bully making fun a little kid because he wants to beat him up but not take the first hit.
In 1940 the U.S. military had about 250,000 men in the Army, 160,00 in the navy and 28,000 in the Marines. The Imperial Japanese Army had around the same time over 6,000,000 men and The Imperial Japanese Navy had almost 300,000 men.

The US isn't the hero stop daydreaming this is the world and this is global power and no one is a hero. There are only losers aka civilians like you, me and the lost lives in Japan/ others in wars.
In war there are no winners I agree, but there are victors the dropping of the two atomic bombs killed around 250,000 people mostly civilian, do a little bit of research on X-day the planed invasion of mainland Japan some had just U.S. causality rating over a million. The fact remains in war you have to kill to same lives.

War is a cash cow and the US seized that opportunity.
War is a money maker for the counties involved some historians say WWII is what really ended the Great Depression.


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19 / M / Cali
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Posted 12/6/14 , edited 12/6/14
No, I think it's best to forget. As long as those thoughts remain, the hatred from back then will too. For example, some African Americans would always bring up "their history" to justify hating white people. (Notice how I said some). Nationalism is the worst.
Posted 12/6/14 , edited 12/7/14

narutosonic330 wrote:

No, I think it's best to forget. As long as those thoughts remain, the hatred from back then will too. For example, some African Americans would always bring up "their history" to justify hating white people. (Notice how I said some). Nationalism is the worst.


Forget the past, and you'll be doomed to repeat it.

edit: fixed some wording. sounded odd in my head.

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40 / M / End of Nowhere
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Posted 12/6/14

AiYumega wrote:

On top of the war effort in Japan, in 1942, FDR signed in action the executive order to "evacuate" and intern anyone of any Japanese ancestry living in the West Coast of the US. For four years, roughly 112.000 Japanese Americans were held in internment camps. In the 80's, over $1 billion in reparations was paid to the ancestors of those held captive, and for the most part, its not discussed much.


Executive Order 9066 is quite possibly the low point in US Constitutional History. It represents the one and so far only time that the rights of an entire group of American citizens was taken away without trial or law and saw them imprisoned as well as their belongings confiscated all for simply who their ancestors were.

That said, in my opinion, no discussion of the Japanese American Internment is complete without also talking about the 100th Battalion and the 442nd Regiment. The 100th Battalion was formed of Japanese Americans who were living in Hawaii. And even with sensitive military bases like Pearl Harbor, Hickam Army Air Force Base, Schofield Barracks, Kaneohe Marine Corps Air Station, and even the headquarters of the Pacific Fleet at Camp Smith, Japanese Americans by and large were never interned or evacuated from Hawaii. Showing just how racist Executive Order 9066 really was. But in any event, the 100th Battalion saw some of the fiercest fighting in Italy including Anzio and Monte Cassino. The 100th Battalion should have been the unit that liberated Rome as well as they finished off the last of the German resistance less than a dozen kilometers from Rome. But instead they were pulled aside so that other US units could march into Rome. From there the 100th Battalion was attached to the 442nd Infantry which was made up of Japanese Americans from the mainland US.

The 442nd had it's share of fights as well. Although the their rescue of the 1st battalion of the 141st Regiment which was made up of the Texas National Guard is probably one of their most famous. After the 1st Battalion was separated and encircled in the Vosges Mountains, the 442nd was ordered to mount a rescue attempt after 2 previous attempts had failed. This after the 442nd had already been pulled back only 2 days before for rest and refit after previous heavy fighting in the Vosges Mountains. After 5 days of literally tree to tree fighting the 442nd succeeded in linking up with the 1st Battalion and rescued 221 men. In doing so the 442 took over 800 casualties. I Company started the fight with 185 men and only 8 walked out. And they were hardly alone.

Overall the 442nd had an official casualty rate of 93%. Meaning 93% of the 14,000 individuals who served in the 100th Battalion and 442nd Regiment were killed, missing, or wounded in action. Most combat units are considered non-combat effective once they hit casualty rates of between 30-40%. Those 14,000 men received 18,142 awards, including 8 Presidential Unit Citations, 9,486 Purple Hearts, 4,000 Bronze Stars, 560 Silver Stars, 52 Distinguished Service Cross', and 21 Medals of Honor. The 442/100th is the most decorated unit for its size and length of service in the history of the US armed forces. A tradition the 100th Battalion continues to this day as the only Combat Arms unit left in the US Army Reserve.

When I hear of people talk about how the Constitution is being ripped up or shredded these days, I find it always comes from people who have never stood in the cold dust of the Manzanar camp, or listened to the stories told by the survivors of Lake Tule, only now beginning to be told, or any of the other internment camps. They really have no idea what it is like to really be a prisoner in, or served for with such fidelity, an America which had so failed itself.
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Posted 12/6/14 , edited 12/6/14
There is wide speculation on the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but truth of the fact is that it was not needed. These bombing were done by the US to "scare off" the USSR after they declared war on Japan.The U.S. believed that if the atomic bomb could end the war, Soviet influence after the war would be restricted and domestically the tremendous cost of development would be justified. The US and other Allied countries continue to say that the dropping of atom bombs on Japan were necessary to save American and Japanese lives. But most of the top American military officials at the time said otherwise.

The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey group, assigned by President Truman to study the air attacks on Japan, produced a report in July of 1946 that concluded (52-56):

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

When you have top officials saying how unnecessary bombings were, why must we turn our backs as if it isn't true?
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40 / M / End of Nowhere
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Posted 12/6/14 , edited 12/6/14

CSDiggity wrote:


narutosonic330 wrote:

No, I think it's best to forget. As long as those thoughts remain, the hatred from back then will too. For example, some African Americans would always bring up "their history" to justify hating white people. (Notice how I said some). Nationalism is the worst.


Forget the past, and you'll be doomed to repeat it.

edit: fixed some wording. sounded odd in my head.



The funny thing is that Americans are as bad at this as anyone else.

For example.

For Japan, World War II did not start in 1941, nor even 1937. The root historical cause of World War II really lies at the feet of America when on July 8th, 1853 Commodore Perry sailed 4 US warships into Edo Harbor and issued an ultimatum to the Japanese government to open their doors to trade with the US or be attacked. And, in point of fact, Commodore Perry did in fact shell parts of a Japanese town to make his point clear. Today that would be an act of war, in the 1850's, however, it was just Colonialism which itself is just another form of Imperialism.

For 200 years Japan had largely isolated itself. Content with being alone, and sure that they would still be able to defend themselves. Commodore Perry's ships showed Japan that just how far behind technologically they had fallen. This caused Japan to take a hard look at the geopolitical situation in Asia and they found that Japan effectively stood alone against every major Western Power. China, Korea, Manchuria, Southeast Asia, and the Philippines were all either victims of Western Colonialism or Imperialism policies. All were suffering under either the outright control by a Western power, or under what is now called the "Unfair Treaties". Japan realized that they were the last remaining Asian nation that was truly independent. With Russia to the north looking to gain footholds in Manchuria and Korea, and the US in the Philippines and Hawaii looking to grow, it was clear to the Japanese government at the time that they needed to establish parity with the major Western powers or follow the footsteps of China and Southeast Asia.

This is what led to the first Sino Japanese War which the Japanese used to carve out a buffer zone on Mainland Asia to effectively hold off Russia who was making advances through Manchuria and the UK in China. This led to the Russo Japanese War where Russia fully expected to win. It was one thing for a Japan who was using swords and muskets as late as the 1880's to defeat China. When Japan defeated Russia they became the first, and only, Asian nation to successfully defeat a Major Western power. In only 50 years Japan had managed to go from a largely agrarian society to a modern industrial one. One capable of parity with one of the Major Western Powers. If possibly the weakest of them at the time.

That was a huge shock to the rest of the world, and one that the US could not help but intervene in. Again. And not to the favor of the Japanese. For all that the US won a Nobel Peace Prize for negotiating the conclusion of the Russo Japanese War, they did so by effectively denying Japan any fruits of their victory. This is what really made Japan realize that they probably would never be seen as equals by the Western Powers and that they were just biding their time. Even though Japan remained an ally of the US and other Western Powers through World War I, the US and other European powers continued to look down on Japan. Japan's famous exit from the old League of Nations is considered to be one of the reasons for it's eventual downfall. And that happened largely because the US brokered some backroom deals that prevented Japan from establishing equality with Europe.

From there Japan, as far as they saw it, stood alone in the world. So they did what pretty much every other nation in the world does in that situation. They make some allies (the Axis Powers) and they started to create an empire to create a buffer zone around them. This is what led to the second Sino Japanese War and eventually World War II.

Now was Japan ever acting in the best interests of Asia when they took control of Korea or fought Russia? No. Not in the least. History appears to indicate that Korea, at least during the period between the first Sino Japanese War and the Second Sino Japanese War was better off under Japanese occupation than Chinese occupation. But that really is also like saying a killer whale is better off at Sea World than an Amusement Park. To be sure, the Japanese were only concerned about Japan. All the rest of Asia was simply a means to an end, and it is not like Japan would have treated China any better than the UK.

But what gave rise to the military junta that largely controlled Japan from the 1920's on through 1945 was largely a creation of the United State's policy towards Japan, as well as the actions of other Western Powers. Prior to 1920 Japan was a progressive nation, very similar to the Japan of today. But because war seemed to be the only option to long term survival Japan chose to roll the dice and went to a military junta to try to achieve their goals. Which the attendant rather anti social policies that also accompanied them. It really can be said the Japan of the 1920's - 1945 was an irregularity rather than what Japan is really like. Certainly a peaceful and open Japan has lasted far longer than the military junta that controlled Japan in the 1930's.

The irony in all of this is that both Russia and China today are on much the same path as Imperial Japan of the 1930's. Both nations feel threatened by other Western Powers and feel the need to create buffer zones. But the same nationalistic policies keep them from seeing the path they are on. And just as ironically the US really is pulling a lot of strings that is making it happen. Now is the US to blame per se? That will be a question for history really. I argue yes in the case of Japan. But it is unclear with China and Russia. The world of the 1850's is far different with far different rules from the world of 2015. And it is hard to say whether whose fault is where. The only certainty is that neither Russia or China, alone or together, is stronger than the rest of the world combined. Just as Japan was not.
Posted 12/6/14
Thanks for posting that AiYumega. I had nearly forgotten about the whole event. Forgetting that would feel like a crime considering what history has taught us back then.

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Posted 12/7/14
I Thank America for nuking Japan in WW II some one had to do it, before you start feeling bad for the Japanese think of what they did to other countries like Korea and China and the innocent lives they took before you start saying they didn't deserve it.. they did

Most people in Japan don't even know about the horrible things their military did during the WW II their government change the history in the text books, it's one thing to not apologize for your crimes it's another to say it never happened at all.

I love anime and Japanese culture but I am not going to be ignorant of the truth... look it up Second Sino Japanese War, nanking etc..

I have a Japanese friend who isn't offended about the bombing, she know it had to be done, she unlike most Japanese know the history

so those feeling sorry for the Japanese don't.
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47 / M / Memphis, TN
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Posted 12/7/14 , edited 12/8/14
Interesting that I'm finding this thread on 07 December--Pearl Harbor Day. As a Navy veteran, it is a date of which I am very conscious, although I was born nearly three decades after the actual attack. At sunrise, I will be lowering the flag to half-staff.

War is always terrible, but I would caution people to remember that those who fight wars are very, very seldom the ones who start them. As for WW2 in particular, my father-in-law was a Filipino serving in the US Army in the Philippines and was taken prisoner by the Japanese. The treatment of POWs was horrendous, but he survived the war and died about 20 years ago. It provided him with a sense of wry amusement that his oldest son moved to Japan to become vice-president of an electronics firm. It is also interesting and profoundly disappointing to note that the US refused to honor its promise to award citizenship after the war to Filipinos who fought in the US Armed Forces (the Philippines at the time being US territory).
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Posted 12/7/14 , edited 12/7/14

CamCab04 wrote:

There are only losers aka civilians like you, me and the lost lives in Japan/ others in wars.


So true, but so sad
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