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Interesting article on yaoi
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23 / M / AZ
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Posted 12/7/14
Check out this interesting article on yaoi
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/06/the-japanese-women-who-love-gay-anime.html
I learned a thing or two from it
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Posted 12/7/14

“The first part of the story details the initial attraction between the two main characters,” says Galbraith “which usually involves the seme—sometimes called the attacker or inserter—pushing himself upon the uke, a softer and perhaps weaker character who is usually considered the protagonist.”

Although Galbraith cites “rape as a common motif fueled by extreme love,” the most crucial element of the narrative’s first section is the crescendo of tension between the two potential lovers.

The second chapter of the procedural is what Galbraith calls “the relationship realized” when the two male characters overcome a physical barrier and initiate the sexual component of their affection, which can range from a single kiss to something far more explicit.


Why I will always find this shit to be weird. Cause women who like full on man to man rape, and are obsessed with who is "inserter" and who is "reciever" is not fucking strange. Especially considering the forum content whenever rape gets mentioned here....
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Posted 12/7/14
Not all BL stories include rape, or at least, not between the main pairing. Sometimes it's referenced, like one member had a traumatic sexual experience and that's preventing him from getting together with another person, but the sex is usually quite consensual. Rape is more common in doujinshi, but even then, it operates on the josei system where "Rape is a form of love".
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Posted 12/7/14 , edited 12/7/14
^ agree

i personally like BL because (especially in the case of sekai ichi hatsukoi) it never fails to be interesting
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Posted 12/7/14
I once asked a friend who is involved in the yaoi manga industry on this subject. She explained that: It's very cultural/social more than anything. Mostly women write/draw these and the "no means yes" is very much fetishized in the way women are often treated there. Sociological studies has it that it's a way for the women to deal with oppression. I am not saying there's a strong rape-culture there but women as a whole, in any Asian society, are not meant to be equals. They are meant to be married and have kids. And often sexual harassment occurs and the society dealt with it in the way of - put a band aid on it instead of fixing the problem,. For example, there's a constant problem with drunken salarymen who board the train and sexually harass women. Touching them, etc. There's so much reports of it and so bad that - instead of teaching the men "you can't do that" -- they simply designate certain cars in the train (by painting it pink and calling it "women only" during rush hours) for female passengers. Although I know this occurs here also, in US of A. Over there, the misogyny is so open and obvious that women tolerate it. IT is just what it is. So when they do M-M porn, it's a way of displacing themselves. A psychological way of dealing with it by replacing it with men. Of course - this is a very sociological look at it. But the bottom line is - it's simply something a lot of them find exciting. They read other stories like this and they repeat it, etc.

When our manga came out - we were hammered by a lot of the same readers of this genre because the main character "didn't enjoy it (rape". And it upset them. They wrote in blogs and reviews that they were depressed for days. The violence and the non-con not being reciprocated as an act of love. Or clumsy way of showing love (as this is the common theme - that it's not really rape. because the aggressor really loves him, etc). So - the bottom line is, you really can't read JP manga/yaoi by Western standards. Because yes, they do fetishize rape fantasies. :)

It would be interesting if any Japanese CR member could confirm this for us. Perhaps they could share their thoughts with us?

Hope my friend's explanation helps a bit with the article.
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Posted 12/7/14 , edited 12/7/14
Hmmm... It seems that Hana likes to project, and that she has a rather unique pair of rose-tinted glasses. No matter...


“When a love exists between a boy and girl, the reader will automatically have empathy with the girl. When it’s just boys, the reader engages in the story from the third person.”
I don't view manga from third person, regardless of character gender/sex. Then again, I have alot of practice via Western romance novels, which often switch between point of views of several characters throughout the story (and not just the MCs).


I come across few BL/yaoi manga/fanfiction that utilize a rape motif, much less, positively. From what I've seen, it's normally used to vilify antagonists. Recently, though, I came across the work of a manga writer who certainly does use rape in the way that the article describes, and the uke's abnormally strong masochism makes it almost seem consensual; however, I was displeased enough to drop the manga after only several chapters, and not just because of the rape. The writing is terribly rushed. I've read/watched hardcore hentai with more emphasis on plot.


I will mention that I've heard several times that the reason why the stereotypes about seme and uke exist is because, apparently, many women unconsciously divide the otherwise male couple as female and male. I believe it.
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Posted 12/7/14 , edited 12/7/14
Rape culture... I'd rather not get in trouble again... *avoids*

I find BL to be hilarious, because I've never seen guys interact like that, it just doesn't happen. IRL jab at each other or play around, I think HxH (Killua and Gon) + Vulgarities (Vulgarity varies from none to high) is perfect example.

edit: *sees fanfiction* O.O don't ruin their beautiful friendship
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Posted 12/7/14
i find this article disturbing in how "Hana" asserts that BL is "pure" love and is somehow significantly superior to "traditional" romances because of underlying societal/cultural norms.
Posted 12/7/14
It's gay guys fucking.
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Posted 12/7/14


lol
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Posted 12/8/14
I love yaoi Especially if it has cute catboys~ (And yes I am a boy but I am bi.). It also helps that I have a fetish on fake (FAKE XD) /acted rape(play).
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Posted 12/8/14
The men aren't always gay. Sometimes you'll get a bi male in the main pairing. More often than not, it's either someone's first time with a man or some trauma is preventing him from hooking up.

I can guarantee you that the majority of people reading BL do not think that real men act like this or expect them to act the way they're portrayed in manga. Most of us understand that this is a fantasy. We don't sit around with our male friends and concoct pairings.

I like BL because it actually shows sex, unlike most manga and other Japanese media aimed towards women where sex is only implied. For me, it's not quite gay because I picture myself, a woman, as the uke. I've spoken to a few other women who like the dominance factor and also insert themselves into the uke role, so I assume this is a more common view among straight female BL fans.
Posted 12/8/14
I think yaoi is fascinating.

I think the idea that women aren't "naughty" is ridiculous. Everyone should get a piece of this perverted pie we call anime and manga. If I can enjoy short skirts and catgirls, women can have their own genre too.

And I know a lot of men who like yaoi too.
Posted 12/8/14
Thank you for this thread.



Yaoi/BL is a beautiful and amazing sub-category of Anime. It is unique to Japanese animation; the motifs, the plot and the way the characters are portrayed are unique and different from other cultures' media/storytelling.

You'd have to be a true appreciator of storytelling in order to appreciate this magnificent sub-genre, and an open-minded person in general.

____________

What makes Romeo + Juliet a fascinating romance story? It's not the fact that two people come to love each other, it's the fact that their families disapproved of their romance, and death was their freedom.

It's the same for yaoi, many relationships portrayed in yaoi are taboo and disapproved by society, i.e. student/teacher, son/father, brother/brother, twins, employee/employer, etc.


In real life, people would get jailed and/or scorned at for loving someone that society doesn't approve of.


In yaoi, we can find these relationships everywhere... it's a form of freedom... and a form of release; to be freed from society's restrain... it caters to our inner deepest desire to be "free"... to love someone without considering the consequences... it's a form of "pure" love just like that article says.

________

A lot of yaoi critics will say... there's nobody in real life who act like yaoi characters...

But who actually would kill themselves for their lover in this day and age? Does that make Romeo + Juliet a bad story? No, it doesn't. It's about feeling free from reading a story about two people fighting for freedom to love someone.





/end rant

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Posted 12/8/14

Akage-chan wrote:
Rape is more common in doujinshi, but even then, it operates on the josei system where "Rape is a form of love".


That comment. It broked the internet. I would LOOOOOOOOOOOVE to see that used in an anti-rape thread and just sit back and watch the comments that would ensue.



GayAsianBoy wrote:

It's the same for yaoi, many relationships portrayed in yaoi are taboo and disapproved by society, i.e. student/teacher, son/father, brother/brother, twins, employee/employer, etc.


In real life, people would get jailed and/or scorned at for loving someone that society doesn't approve of.


In yaoi, we can find these relationships everywhere... it's a form of freedom... and a form of release; to be freed from society's restrain... it caters to our inner deepest desire to be "free"... to love someone without considering the consequences... it's a form of "pure" love just like that article says.

But who actually would kill themselves for their lover in this day and age? Does that make Romeo + Juliet a bad story? No, it doesn't. It's about feeling free from reading a story about two people fighting for freedom to love someone.


A lot of those forms of "love" are problematic for society. Biologically we have a natural aversion to mating with our nearest kin, and typically it makes damned good sense. Student/teacher or employee/employer... ehhh.. they're cultural more so, but because they pose professional problems. People always want what is naughty or forbidden, and that I can agree with. In a lot of cases, once one act becomes dull or accepted, they pursue other means because they're chasing the high... As for forbidden or troublesome romance, I don't see many people that are going to argue about it, but there's a whole variety of romances that allow for that "star crossed lovers" play to come out.



Taitou85 wrote:

I once asked a friend who is involved in the yaoi manga industry on this subject. She explained that: It's very cultural/social more than anything. Mostly women write/draw these and the "no means yes" is very much fetishized in the way women are often treated there.

When our manga came out - we were hammered by a lot of the same readers of this genre because the main character "didn't enjoy it (rape". And it upset them. They wrote in blogs and reviews that they were depressed for days. The violence and the non-con not being reciprocated as an act of love. Or clumsy way of showing love (as this is the common theme - that it's not really rape. because the aggressor really loves him, etc). So - the bottom line is, you really can't read JP manga/yaoi by Western standards. Because yes, they do fetishize rape fantasies. :)



"No means yes.." Trust me the explanations to all this just get better and better.....

I'm not trying to cut out your explanations though. Rape porn was also popular in other cultures after a particularly nasty period of occupation or dominance by other cultures. I get that. But, unfortunately, reading it in the US and having a similar obsession with the roles and rape, makes your last point harder to make. (and even if you do say there's a rape culture here in the US and it's some way to act it out. I doubt you'll find that the majority of people will readily say that women's rights in Japan and the sexual harassment they recieve is equal to it here in the US or in Canada or in Europe where there are still a fair number of BL fans.



aeb0717 wrote:

I will mention that I've heard several times that the reason why the stereotypes about seme and uke exist is because, apparently, many women unconsciously divide the otherwise male couple as female and male. I believe it.


Yes, I admit they do. But what weirds me out is when that translates into real life. Why the obsession with how gay men fuck? Nobody wants to know the fetishes and kink that hetero couples might delve into. Lesbianism? Do they ask who wears a strap on? No. But in gay relationships.. holy shit. Out comes this obsession with finding out who's the "woman". First of all, it's someone else's sex life and I don't think it's great to pry, and secondly, it's like its trying to find out which of the two is the "lesser", when really I prefer, and think most of society agrees, it's better to aim for equality.

oh... and the equating gay sex to rape.


AiYumega wrote:

I think yaoi is fascinating.

I think the idea that women aren't "naughty" is ridiculous. Everyone should get a piece of this perverted pie we call anime and manga. If I can enjoy short skirts and catgirls, women can have their own genre too.

And I know a lot of men who like yaoi too.


There's some good gay love stories out there. I personally don't consider them BL, because they don't follow the same tropes and idioms that define BL and BL culture. (you can call it the no true scottsman fallacy if you will, but I am trying to put a definition to it lest we run into the problem of having to define where something goes from being just a love story with gay characters into the realm of BL).

I don't think anyone really looks at its readers as being less human for it rather than just really damned weird. It's also not like they go out and encourage rape, it is a fantasy. It's just the mind that obsesses over this is... WEIRD.
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