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Post Reply Hypothetical Situation: Give Me Your Opinion
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20 / M / Vancouver Canada
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Posted 1/2/15
Defending people who can't defend themselves is fine in my eyes, but the law anywhere in the world is a fickle bitch.
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Posted 1/2/15
Are you a COP? Some kind of legitimate Law Enforcement personnel, and not some guy that just works for a private security agency?

Cause if your not you should just leave.

1. Your in the way wrong for bringing a gun into a school. Gun free zones are stupid but once the case is settled your still gonna face charges for that crime.

2. With your weapon your allowed to protect yourself / and possibly those near to you from imminent danger. But you are not allowed to go seeking out danger to apply your own justice.
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Posted 1/2/15
Firstly the fact that people like you could walk into the premises with concealed weapons is the reason why this tragedy is happening in the first place.

Secondly realistically you would have very little idea what is going on. Is it a firecracker? An accident? A suicide? A school shooter is actually quite a long way down the chain of possibilities. So if you were to jump to the conclusion that it is, then you will be running into a lot of false positives where you are running through a school, gun drawn, ready to shoot the first people that you think is dodgy.

Thirdly the school will have contingency plans for this sort of thing. There are routes for people to get away as quickly as possible, there's organisation, law enforcement will have been informed and they will come in fast, and heavy, and assume everyone with a gun is a hostile. They haven't reckoned for a self-styled-hero in there, panicking the students as to who the *real* shooter is, creating confusion, blocking the exits by running the wrong way, potentially shooting innocent bystanders dead.

Fourth, unlike you, the shooter is perfectly happy with shooting everything that moves, while you have to first stop, evaluate, etc etc so that you don't shoot a teacher, student, security guard, or another hero like you. And the shooter, if he is a student, probably knows the internal layout of the school better than you. And he's very ready to kill and he could be wearing armour. So in general, he'll have the advantage.

So, yeah, in some ideal case where everything is lined up and you can choose to kill one guy to save lives, that's potentially morally justified, but in practice it will rarely if ever work out that way, and the justice system will want to punish you to discourage copy-cats who in 99% of cases will fuck things up and make things worse. Follow the evacuation instructions you are given. If you want to save lives, then train to be a cop.
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M / California
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Posted 1/2/15
You saved lives of innocents at the expense of a murderer's life. I'd say you were justified.
Posted 1/2/15 , edited 1/2/15
There are way too many things I need to clarify before I can even give you my opinion.

1) I'm going to assume that you're telling the truth when you basically assert that you can tell 100% and without doubt what a gunshot sounds like. That seems dubious to me, but I'm willing to accept that claim for the time being.

2) What do you mean by "He didn't deserve it". He did kill the teacher, right? Was it somehow accidental? What makes you make this assertion? I'm going to assume that he did kill the teacher intentionally (at which point, his death is deserved in my eyes). EDIT - Forget this point. You meant that he didn't deserve a trial, not to die. I disagree with that, but it clarifies things a bit.

3) What is the location of you and the assailant? At first you make it sound like you're in the principal's office, but then you say that you were waiting near the front entrance? Furthermore, where was the assailant? If he was shot near the front entrance, that seems to imply that he wasn't actually in the school? Or were you with the principal in the school, heard the shot, moved to the front entrance, and then killed the assailant as he tried to leave? If that's the case then you should really include that information.

So, assuming all the clarifications I hypothesized are correct, here is my opinion. In this scenario, your actions are justified. Why? The most important part of this scenario for me is knowledge. You knew the assailant had a gun, and you knew he fired it. You also knew this first-hand and not from secondary sources. To me, what this means is that the you knew the school you were in had been fired upon, and you responded by firing back. Your actions were reactionary, not preemptive - defensive, not offensive - and this is what justifies you in my eyes.

That makes the situation slightly more clear-cut in my eyes. It would be much more ambiguous if you did not hear the gunshot and know it was a gun, or if you merely saw the weapon before it was fired. Those cases are far less clear cut, and generally, for more difficult to morally justify to me personally.

EDIT 2 - I should also clarify that i'm only dealing with one aspect of this story. I'm dealing with this as a purely hypothetical situation and only addressing the point as I determined it. I'm disregarding the fact that it's wrong to carry concealed weapons into a school, wrong to try to kill someone without incapacitating them, and not ideal to carry weapons on your person to begin with. Those are all, however, not pertinent to the situation at hand. They are givens - like premises in a logical syllogism. I feel like I could attack each of those premieres, but instead, i'm assuming they're all fine and moving on from there, rather than attacking the validity of each premise (which I assure you, I probably would).
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54 / M / Tacoma, WA. wind...
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Posted 1/2/15
Aim for the largest part of the shooter's body and fire.
If you are REALLY cognizant of what is going on you might want to NOT shoot at anyone else in the area by accident.
You will miss at least 4 of 5 shots, that's if you train a lot.
Did you run for cover or run to the shooting?
Are you sure the person you are shooting at is the perpetrator or someone-else that has a carry permit?

If you have a carry permit are you totally aware of most everything around you before anything happens?

Be careful.

There are soooooo many questions you need to answer before you accidentally walk into a school with a gun.
Being that most of the schools in my district have metal detectors, it'd be interesting that anyone would get in with a weapon.

You might end up like Bernard Guets/Getts.... He defended himself in the NYC subway and they tried to send him to jail but I think he got off with a suspended sentence... BUt that was years ago....

There's a lot to be said for self-defense.
Being that the perpetrator already shot someone. that might not be an issue.
I think if you live in Texas you can carry just about any place including schools...

So much to think about and I haven't even scratched the surface...


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It doesn't matter.
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Posted 1/2/15
This is a romantic fantasy.
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27 / M
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Posted 1/2/15

lilliputian_otaku wrote:

The following situation is purely hypothetical. What is right? What should a "good" person do? Am I in the wrong?

I am visiting my daughter's high school on a winter day after getting a call from the principal who informed me that my daughter was involved in a fight. The girl involved was beaten pretty badly and was hospitalized. When I arrive, I immediately ask for a video tape of the fight. After a bit of discussion, I get the footage of what I want, before seeing my daughter or hearing whatever else the principal has to say. The principal then notifies me that the family of the girl who was injured is pressing charges. Fine by me. I've seen what I needed to see.

A shot rings out. It's not a firecracker, or whatever the hell else people hear when a gun is fired. It's a gun, no doubt about it. Let's pause for a bit.

My daughter is a good and athletic student with enough self defense training to give her a chance to get away from most threats. From this, you might imagine that I concealed carry (CC) regularly. And I do. During the winter, it is all too convenient and comfortable to wear a dual shoulder holster, especially while driving (which I do a lot for work). I was already a bit worked up and forgot to leave my pistols in the truck as I ran into the school after receiving the call from the principal.

And resume...

The second I hear the shot fired, I come to my senses and remember that I have my 75B's on me. We'll picture a best case scenario where a school shooter didn't expect someone to be armed and ready to fire on campus near the entrance. One unlucky teacher is dead, and one idiot got the death penalty without a proper trial. Well, he didn't deserve it in the first place.

Regardless of what the law decides to do with me, what do you think is right? Should I have sat back and let a bunch of kids die while casually chatting with the principal, or were my actions justified? School shootings are something we have to be concerned about these days. But stupid parents are becoming more and more unreasonable. Where should I draw the line? If a person willing to pull the trigger is on scene, how many people should die before that person starts saving lives?


The whole reason you were put on the spot is because you made the conscious decision ahead of time that you were somehow qualified to make life-or-death decisions in critical situations such as this one. It's the reason why you decided to go Rambo when you thought you heard a gunshot, and it's likely the reason why you carry a gun in the first place.

A "good" person shouldn't be carrying a gun. They will strive to prevent situations where the people around them can die rather than expect them. Carrying guns around is not a solution, and the desire to do so is a product of the idea that you are personally responsible for the lives of those around you, which seems to indicate an unhealthy level of paranoia and/or self-worth.
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27 / M / ihlok
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Posted 1/3/15

lilliputian_otaku wrote:


onibrotonel wrote:

Is this really hypothetical? Hmmm... it feels like it's not. Hmm


With great lawyers, things might not turn good on your way and, heck, they might even present a twist on the situation. If this don't get massive media coverage, they might just cheaply hire an opposing lawyer.

They might discredit your "act of heroism" by digging more on your dirty laundry. Such as do you have a recent criminal history, anger management issues, complaints, altercations, medications, relationships, permits, etc.

The opposing lawyers might say "this man was angry...enraged...fuming about hearing his daughter's school issue that he had to bring a gun to a gun free school. He was about to commit an abomination but he was beaten to it by another person. He had no reason to bring gun in school. The school has enough security, man power and technology, to secure the place."


The best thing on this "hypothetical" scenario is to have enough witnesses. Good witnesses, especially the ones you saved from harm, can persuade the people of the jury. But, if the opposing lawyer is really good, he or she could discredited the witnesses.


How to Get Away with Murder. Favorite show. Can't wait for the 29th.


I don't have any kids, so yes it is completely and totally hypothetical.


good to know it's hypothetical. i'd say morally shooting would be the right thing here. but illegal.
Posted 1/3/15 , edited 1/3/15
Let him shoot as many as he can?? lol i kid. People who go on mass shooting spree tend to turn the gun on to themselves, no? So, how can you stop someone like that reasonably without shooting them? So shoot him even if you don't care about the people he's shooting at :). Just not multiple times because then you'd have had enjoyed it and that will get you to prison.
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23 / M / Saint Charles, Mi...
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Posted 1/3/15

lilliputian_otaku wrote:

The following situation is purely hypothetical. What is right? What should a "good" person do? Am I in the wrong?

I am visiting my daughter's high school on a winter day after getting a call from the principal who informed me that my daughter was involved in a fight. The girl involved was beaten pretty badly and was hospitalized. When I arrive, I immediately ask for a video tape of the fight. After a bit of discussion, I get the footage of what I want, before seeing my daughter or hearing whatever else the principal has to say. The principal then notifies me that the family of the girl who was injured is pressing charges. Fine by me. I've seen what I needed to see.

A shot rings out. It's not a firecracker, or whatever the hell else people hear when a gun is fired. It's a gun, no doubt about it. Let's pause for a bit.

My daughter is a good and athletic student with enough self defense training to give her a chance to get away from most threats. From this, you might imagine that I concealed carry (CC) regularly. And I do. During the winter, it is all too convenient and comfortable to wear a dual shoulder holster, especially while driving (which I do a lot for work). I was already a bit worked up and forgot to leave my pistols in the truck as I ran into the school after receiving the call from the principal.

And resume...

The second I hear the shot fired, I come to my senses and remember that I have my 75B's on me. We'll picture a best case scenario where a school shooter didn't expect someone to be armed and ready to fire on campus near the entrance. One unlucky teacher is dead, and one idiot got the death penalty without a proper trial. Well, he didn't deserve it in the first place.

Regardless of what the law decides to do with me, what do you think is right? Should I have sat back and let a bunch of kids die while casually chatting with the principal, or were my actions justified? School shootings are something we have to be concerned about these days. But stupid parents are becoming more and more unreasonable. Where should I draw the line? If a person willing to pull the trigger is on scene, how many people should die before that person starts saving lives?


Kill the shooter, he/she has committed a crime and is indangering other. But has also to choose to go down that path, I would make a fatal shot.
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Posted 10/14/16
This is weird

It's like the first half of the post has little to nothing to do with the second half of the post


That's all
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27 / F / The Ivory Tower
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Posted 10/14/16

staphen wrote:

A "good" person shouldn't be carrying a gun. They will strive to prevent situations where the people around them can die rather than expect them. Carrying guns around is not a solution, and the desire to do so is a product of the idea that you are personally responsible for the lives of those around you, which seems to indicate an unhealthy level of paranoia and/or self-worth.


This is silly, because it does not take into account that there is little to nothing we can do to make the world not-evil. And can one not both strive to prevent bad situations and expect them at the same time?

Further, how can you be so certain of the motives/rationale behind concealed carry? Though I decided against it, I've considered concealed carry to protect myself, as I don't want to be raped.
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27 / F / The Ivory Tower
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Posted 10/14/16

nanikore2 wrote:

This is weird

It's like the first half of the post has little to nothing to do with the second half of the post


That's all


I agree that the story about the daughter is out of place.
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27 / M
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Posted 10/15/16 , edited 10/15/16

auroraloose wrote:


staphen wrote:

A "good" person shouldn't be carrying a gun. They will strive to prevent situations where the people around them can die rather than expect them. Carrying guns around is not a solution, and the desire to do so is a product of the idea that you are personally responsible for the lives of those around you, which seems to indicate an unhealthy level of paranoia and/or self-worth.


This is silly, because it does not take into account that there is little to nothing we can do to make the world not-evil. And can one not both strive to prevent bad situations and expect them at the same time?

Further, how can you be so certain of the motives/rationale behind concealed carry? Though I decided against it, I've considered concealed carry to protect myself, as I don't want to be raped.


By saying you would carry a gun to protect yourself from rapists, you are saying that you would make yourself personally responsible for ending the life of a rapist in some theoretical situation that hasn't even occurred. To some degree, it also makes you personally responsible for a plethora of other theoretical situations in which your gun is used to kill people who are not rapists, however unlikely you think those situations might be. Yeah, killing someone would be a pretty effective way of keeping them from raping you, and perhaps you believe they deserve to die if they'd be willing to do that to you, but I can definitively say that carrying a gun is pretty much the opposite of preventing situations where people around you could die.
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