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Post Reply COMMON CORE: are you for it or against it?
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Posted 1/5/15 , edited 1/5/15
It does not matter how hard it is, if you fail you take a summer class , that it. everyone have to learn even to learn to fail, choices are set in college carrier not in school where kid no not know about life yet.
I am pro. Standards have to be set, not a disarray.
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I don't know if my words have any real substance, but I really don't like it. We had to do those practice test Common Core, and it was one of the hardest and most confusing tests I had ever taken in my life. As one of the honors kids, we usually like finishing things all the way through, just to say that we did it. But everyone stopped trying after the first test. The way those tests and ways of teaching are set up are way different then what I'm used to.
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Posted 1/5/15 , edited 1/5/15

bobsagget wrote:

Communist core lol. Go on youtube and you'll find plenty of information about common core and why its so bad. here's one video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si-kx5-MKSE


The man you've cited is not an unbiased party. He is a contributor to the John Birch Society's The New American and claims (falsely) that works of Western literature are being phased out of English/Literature curricula and replaced with government-issued pamphlets. He paints teaching that homosexual families are normal people (find that in the Common Core curriculum for me, why don't you?) as "liberal indoctrination". He claims (again, falsely) that local and state level officials have no authority in determining what or how they teach. I'll prove that to you right now:

Here. Grade 1:

http://www.corestandards.org/ELA-Literacy/RL/1/

No works are specified, no pamphlets are mentioned, and there's not a thing about homosexuals even in there.

Here. Grade 2:

http://www.corestandards.org/ELA-Literacy/RL/2/

I call your attention to standard 2.9 for English/Language arts:


Compare and contrast two or more versions of the same story (e.g., Cinderella stories) by different authors or from different cultures.


Note that a great deal of latitude is given as to what specific stories are to be used as source material, with the only objective being that a specific skill is imparted. State and local authorities retain the power to determine which specific works ought to be taught. The only specification is that different cultures or authors be used to compare and contrast two versions of a given story. Also note in the general link that once again homosexuality is conspicuously missing.

Regarding the claim that works of Western literature are being phased out in favor of government-issued pamphlets, we'll move to 11th and 12th grades:

http://www.corestandards.org/ELA-Literacy/RL/11-12/

I call your attention to 11-12.4:


Determine the meaning of words and phrases as they are used in the text, including figurative and connotative meanings; analyze the impact of specific word choices on meaning and tone, including words with multiple meanings or language that is particularly fresh, engaging, or beautiful. (Include Shakespeare as well as other authors.)


Shakespeare (who last I checked is a major Western author and playwright) is mandatory, with a great deal of latitude given for the remainder of the specific works to be taught ("as well as other authors").

He claims that getting a general idea of a work is sufficient in Common Core. I point to 11-12.1, the very first one:


Cite strong and thorough textual evidence to support analysis of what the text says explicitly as well as inferences drawn from the text, including determining where the text leaves matters uncertain.


While we're at it, here's 2 and 3:


11-12.2: Determine two or more themes or central ideas of a text and analyze their development over the course of the text, including how they interact and build on one another to produce a complex account; provide an objective summary of the text.

11-12.3: Analyze the impact of the author's choices regarding how to develop and relate elements of a story or drama (e.g., where a story is set, how the action is ordered, how the characters are introduced and developed).


It'd be best if you'd stop listening to this man. His claims are demonstrably false.
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Posted 1/5/15 , edited 1/5/15
I changed my major from what I truly want to do, Middle Grades Education, to my hobby, Networking Technologies, due to many flaws in the Common Core standard. A big chunk of the Common Core is research based in the country Finland which has the highest student's proficiency in the world. At the time, 2012, they were ranked 3rd in the world; however, I do not know the current rank.

The problem with Common Core is test base system which test the students in a variety of ways; however, teachers become accustom to "Teach for the test," due to their job and the school relies on test scores to receive funding from the government as well as end of the year bonus salaries. Teachers cannot teach how they want to teach unlike in Finland which allows teachers so much more privileges as deciding if the student goes on to the next or retains a grade (Here we have a so called "No Child Left Behind Act"). In addition, teachers in Finland can teach anyway they desire within their subject. In many US public schools, teachers have to follow a curriculum with weekly subject meetings.

Furthermore, another problem with the Common Core is getting students to go beyond the classroom through "experience." This issue relates back to the first statement which schools cut back on P.E., School Trip, and other extracurricular activities to get students back to the classroom to learn how to pass a test. Sad isn't it?

In closure, several states are abandoning the Common Core. Why? Simple because it was never officially approved to be taught.

There are more issues to the Common Core; however, I will stop here unless others will like me to expand. I will eventually go back to get my education degree once all this education mess is fix.
Posted 1/5/15
It doesnt matter how they change the education system, parents are using cruise control and the school system to raise kids making education not seem as important. Parents need to start becoming more active in education again if they want things to change. My step son's father raises him with the cruise control method and the child will get F's left with him, its been tested but gets A's and B's with me and his mother... it all comes down to just a bit of structure at home and parents caring about the kids education more than their own personal life. From the way this new method describes it sounds like the government is just trying to be more proactive about raising your kids which i personally wouldn't want.

But how to get the vast majority of parents to care again? Sure they all love their kids, but they expect at age 5 to hand the kids off to the school and not have much else to do with raising them..
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Posted 1/5/15

IngramIV wrote:

It does not matter how hard it is, if you fail you take a summer class , that it. everyone have to learn even to learn to fail, choices are set in college carrier not in school where kid no not know about life yet.
I am pro? Standards have to be set, not a disarray.


I felt like the italicized part was more of a question than a statement. I can't really understand most of what's going on in that little post you wrote.

'Standards have to be set, not a disarray.'

Did somebody set us up the bomb in that sentence right there? Does all our base belong to you now?
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Posted 1/5/15 , edited 1/5/15

querkle wrote:

It doesnt matter how they change the education system, parents are using cruise control and the school system to raise kids making education not seem as important. Parents need to start becoming more active in education again if they want things to change. My step son's father raises him with the cruise control method and the child will get F's left with him, its been tested but gets A's and B's with me and his mother... it all comes down to just a bit of structure at home and parents caring about the kids education more than their own personal life. From the way this new method describes it sounds like the government is just trying to be more proactive about raising your kids which i personally wouldn't want.

But how to get the vast majority of parents to care again? Sure they all love their kids, but they expect at age 5 to hand the kids off to the school and not have much else to do with raising them..


You sir are right, parents plays a big part in helping their child succeed in school; however, the issue is more about the Common Core teaching standards itself.

Common Core =/= Child Rearing
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Posted 1/5/15
The school systems today (and even back in my day) have always been flawed. It doesn't surprise me seeing the government get involved but just like in the past they continue to break things more instead of fixing them. What I've noticed in the past is our schools are teaching to the 1% leaving 99% out in the dust and it'll never change. Our current unemployment rate says it all. There are some simple tweaks to the current system that'll do these children the justice they deserve. In my day we had mandatory maths, mandatory englishs, mandatory sciences, mandatory humanities, mandatory phys eds, mandatory electives, 12 classes a day with a mandatory 30-45 minutes of homework each, and the mandatory unpaid teachers (or teachers with tenure who felt safe) who just didn't care. About 1% of us or less use earth science, chemistry (although it may be higher if you include the students running meth labs) or even trigonometry in our everyday.

What we need are 3 simple things to fix the school system as it stands today.
1. Graded teachers. Teachers need to be judged and graded on thier job performance just like the students they teach. Pass/Fail is a simple concept that will work. Tenure is a past concept that should be deemed obsolete. I had a teacher who came in, had us put our homework on his desk in alphabetical order, had his assistant check off in the book that we handed in homework, told us to read 2-3 chapters in the book silently then took 5 minutes or less of questions from us before leaving class. This was a common practice when it came to tenured teachers out here. I've heard from the little ones in my family that it hasn's changed at all.
2. Homework is useless. If the children were being taught right in class there would be no need for homework. It's just a way of adding unnecessary stress/risk onto a child's health. My third cousin currently has about 6 hrs of homework every night and more on weekends. She has a hard time understanding a lot of what she learns due to lack of sleep. Keep the children alert, well fed and healthy and they can learn.
3. Maths up to algebra and geometry, history/geography and English language classes should be the only mandatory classes of current core classes. There should be more options to promote individuality among youngsters. Further studies in the chosen paths (English, math, geography/history, sciences) should be optional electives along with choices such as arts, musics, computer sciences, bookkeeping/accounting, etc. For the remainder of electives they should include choices of foreign languages, culinary, woodcraft, etc. Real world choices of career the majority will choose. They will choose thier own directions considering it will be thier future and life. Some madatory choices though would be real world survival classes such as basic cooking, cleaning, hygiene, relationship education (to teach manners, common courtesy, etc) among other standard everyday life issues.

Those 3 changes will give students a reason to see school as less a chore and let them take pride in thier own curriculum choices. It will also remove the deadwood teachers from the system allowing more who actually care about the children to step up and get the job done right.
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Posted 1/5/15

neugenx wrote:
2. Homework is useless. If the children were being taught right in class there would be no need for homework. It's just a way of adding unnecessary stress/risk onto a child's health. My third cousin currently has about 6 hrs of homework every night and more on weekends. She has a hard time understanding a lot of what she learns due to lack of sleep. Keep the children alert, well fed and healthy and they can learn.
3. Maths up to algebra and geometry, history/geography and English language classes should be the only mandatory classes of current core classes. There should be more options to promote individuality among youngsters. Further studies in the chosen paths (English, math, geography/history, sciences) should be optional electives along with choices such as arts, musics, computer sciences, bookkeeping/accounting, etc. For the remainder of electives they should include choices of foreign languages, culinary, woodcraft, etc. Real world choices of career the majority will choose. They will choose thier own directions considering it will be their future and life. Some madatory choices though would be real world survival classes such as basic cooking, cleaning, hygiene, relationship education (to teach manners, common courtesy, etc) among other standard everyday life issues.


2. Homework is not useless. It is there for a reason because homework helps a student retain the information, in addition, develop higher level thinking such as applying what he or she learned on their own without assistant. There is a chart that shows how much a student will remember new information within 24hrs if they do the following: Study/homework, take notes, etc. I will agree, if students are taught right such as having good teachers who knows how to teach what they know into understandable terms for their students, then learning is enhanced because the students are engaged and are not disengaged. The amount of homework is a problem, I will admit, but currently, I have no solutions at this time.

3. I strongly disagree because students will become application robots only taught to think one directional.
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Posted 1/5/15
The Common Core is a joke. Individual schools should choose whether they want to implement them or not. As a high school Junior taking AP English Language and Comp (among other AP classes) my school is forcing students in the course to be guinea pigs for the Common Core English Regents test coming up at the end of this month. There has only been one "model test" released and after completing some of it today, it's light work. Nothing close to the difficulty of AP test questions. And Common Core math curriculums, OMG the horror . No wonder America has such a low ranking among fellow developed countries when it comes to mathematics. http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-rankings-2013-12 I am so glad I am taking Precalculus before the Common Core is introduced because my teacher teaches using materials from China, Russia, India, etc. instead of American textbooks. Even the kids who are failing the class can say that textbook problems are comparatively easy. Although the common core may surely raise standards across certain areas, it may only serve to drag down the bright youth who expected more from the good high schools to which they applied.
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Posted 1/5/15 , edited 1/5/15
So I've been reading the standards (OP, you should link the actual standards) from the PDF linked here: http://www.corestandards.org/Math/

Thus far I'm not finding anything truly objectionable. It all looks very much like what I went through, though I don't recall exactly what grade each topic was introduced in.

I think this is what's getting people's goats:

Quoth the Standard for Math:


Add and subtract within 20, demonstrating fluency for addition and subtraction within 10. Use strategies such as counting on; making ten (e.g., 8 + 6 = 8 + 2 + 4 = 10 + 4 = 14); decomposing a number leading to a ten (e.g., 13 – 4 = 13 – 3 – 1 = 10 – 1 = 9); using the relationship between addition and subtraction (e.g., knowing that 8 + 4 = 12, one knows 12 – 8 = 4); and creating equivalent but easier or known sums (e.g., adding 6 + 7 by creating the known equivalent 6 + 6 + 1 = 12 + 1 = 13).


I really find no problem with this at all. In fact I was not taught this way (I was taught the whole borrowing/carry-the-one thing) but when faced with a sum I can't immediately regurgitate I actually do something similar. There's nothing inherently wrong with decomposing a problem to make it easier. Calculating a tip by adding together 10% of x + half of that result is easier than calculating 15% right off.

Moreover, I haven't seen anything thus far forbidding the teaching of other methods, such as the one I was taught.

Let me re-emphasize that: Common Core does not dictate teaching methodology.


sasarahsept wrote:

I don't know if my words have any real substance, but I really don't like it. We had to do those practice test Common Core, and it was one of the hardest and most confusing tests I had ever taken in my life. As one of the honors kids, we usually like finishing things all the way through, just to say that we did it. But everyone stopped trying after the first test. The way those tests and ways of teaching are set up are way different then what I'm used to.


I would like to know more about the test. What made it so vexing? I would imagine it's multiple choice, right? So, do they make you turn in a separate worksheet, to show that you arrived at the answer in a particular way? Were the word problems just worded strangely?

Actually, I would like to see a sample test. Perhaps I'll see if google can turn one up. They may be evil, but they know everything, right?


bobsagget wrote:
it encourages Group Think, and allows 2+2 to equal 5.


"Citation Needed" for 200, Alex. I've come across no such thing in my reading of the standards so far.


mdmrn wrote:

I oppose common core for a number of reasons. First, I don't believe in national standards for education. I think we still should have state rule, state control over local educational systems. Common Core is another federal overreach in our public education system in America. Local municipalities and states know better than the federal government, in my opinion, how to best craft policy for their locality's education program.


I disagree. There should be a national standard for education. "You must meet these minimum requirements in education" or you lose Federal funding, your schools will be considered low performers, whatever. We do this sort of thing already in transportation, law enforcement, agriculture, etc., so why not education as well? This is far from overreach, especially considering the effect education has on shaping our future. We've fallen behind enough already.

Conveniently, it'd also make it easier to keep pseudoscience and bullshit out of our classrooms. :p



It, like most policy standards which are test based, ends up becoming a "teach to the test" type of classroom setting. Which isn't productive for the students or the teachers. I went to school in a test based atmosphere where everyone taught to the test. I was woefully unprepared, in many respects, for college. And I was top in my graduating class.


Well I'd say blame No Child Left Behind but you've put your age as 31, meaning you're too old to blame Bush. (well, maybe the first one :p) I had my standardized testing too but I didn't think it was so bad. I did have a few teachers that had an unhealthy obsession with my state's standardized test but only one of them was really bad. From what I remember, it was pretty much, "You need to be able to solve this type of problem so here's some extra homework specifically using this type of problem." I've no problem with that approach. The bad teacher I had insisted I solve the problems her way--yet the test at the time didn't care how you solved it! >.<



I hope, in the end, they end up helping our education system. But, I'm skeptical. As a parent myself, I'm extra skeptical of any nationalized set of standards.

It's good to be skeptical, but I think on the whole national standards will be a net positive. Bad teachers are bad regardless of any policy, federal, state, or local.


TheOneTrueAero wrote:
I realized that i myself am able to learn at a much faster rate than when taught at school. For example: School Computer Science class - 36 weeks to teach a programming language. Me and a For Dummies Book: 1 week. It is assured that i may have not had the amount of practice provided within 36 weeks, but i was able to understand the language and create programs. All i lacked was experience. All i need now is less procrastination, and then i'll be fine.


Good for you. Not everyone has that ability. I for one couldn't do that. I'm actually rather terrible at learning from a book because I lack the discipline. I'll admit that's a fault. I could be much farther along in my field (ESPECIALLY in my field) if I could learn easily from reading books. Instead I require the structure and enforced practice of a classroom if I want to learn something like a programming language at anything more than a snail's pace. :p Certain other topics though I've been able to pick up quite well in unstructured settings, so maybe it's just technical subjects.
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2. Homework is not useless. It is there for a reason because homework helps a student retain the information, in addition, develop higher level thinking such as applying what he or she learned on their own without assistant. There is a chart that shows how much a student will remember new information within 24hrs if they do the following: Study/homework, take notes, etc. I will agree, if students are taught right such as having good teachers who knows how to teach what they know into understandable terms for their students, then learning is enhanced because the students are engaged and are not disengaged. The amount of homework is a problem, I will admit, but currently, I have no solutions at this time.

3. I strongly disagree because students will become application robots only taught to think one directional.


2. Have you read the study by Stanford researchers about the over saturation of homework being not only a learning issue but a health issue to students http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/march/too-much-homework-031014.html ? or the Washington Post article (based on Alfie Kohn's books on the homework myth we were taught for years http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2012/11/26/homework-an-unnecessary-evil-surprising-findings-from-new-research/ ? There are many studies out there that prove no significant benefit from homework.

3. How does giving children a wider berth to choose thier own individual career path "one-directional" and/or "limiting" ? A wider range opens more career paths and career choices than the one-way thinking of today's schools. We're at the highest rates of unemployment, welfare and government aid usage we've been at in quite a long time. That in itself shows the way we're teaching children isn't helping them at all.
Posted 1/5/15 , edited 1/5/15
I don't know much about the common core, despite the fact that I live in a state that has formally adopted it. I suppose I have some questions about it though.

1) Does it apply to private schools as well? I myself went to a private school and am very satisfied with the education I received there. Most of my friends who went to public schools are now in community college learning stuff I was taught in the 5th grade. Would the common core force private schools to alter their curricula as well?

2) Does the common core seek to impose standards on what is taught in every school, or does it simply give "guidelines"?

I only ask because i'm worried about the mentality behind the common core more than the common core itself. At the school I attended there was constant talk about altering the curriculum to meet changing government-imposed standards. I always thought that was a shame because the school administration did wonders for my education by making their own decisions. I was always somewhat repulsed by the idea that the same government (either state or federal) which managed the public schools all my peers were learning nothing in was now trying to tell my school how to run things. The common core won't facilitate more of that, will it? I don't really know since I attended a school in California. As I said, the core itself doesn't concern me as much as the mentality.

EDIT- But who knows - it could be really beneficial for some. I suppose i'm just fearful that it will inadvertently fix what isn't broken.
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Posted 1/5/15

evilotakuneko wrote:

I would like to know more about the test. What made it so vexing? I would imagine it's multiple choice, right? So, do they make you turn in a separate worksheet, to show that you arrived at the answer in a particular way? Were the word problems just worded strangely?

Actually, I would like to see a sample test. Perhaps I'll see if google can turn one up. They may be evil, but they know everything, right?



The test had been completely online, and according to my memory, there were no multiple choice questions. That was for math and english.
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neugenx wrote:

2. Have you read the study by Stanford researchers about the over saturation of homework being not only a learning issue but a health issue to students http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/march/too-much-homework-031014.html ? or the Washington Post article (based on Alfie Kohn's books on the homework myth we were taught for years http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2012/11/26/homework-an-unnecessary-evil-surprising-findings-from-new-research/ ? There are many studies out there that prove no significant benefit from homework.

3. How does giving children a wider berth to choose thier own individual career path "one-directional" and/or "limiting" ? A wider range opens more career paths and career choices than the one-way thinking of today's schools. We're at the highest rates of unemployment, welfare and government aid usage we've been at in quite a long time. That in itself shows the way we're teaching children isn't helping them at all.


2. The first link is related to what I stated. I know to much homework is bad and there needs to be a balance. When I was in Public school, homework was assigned daily and usually due the next day. The other link is controversial as I will disagree based on experience, and it does not specify what type of homework are assigned and the amount of time to complete the assignment. As the Washington Article states, "(Thus, a headline that reads “Study finds homework boosts achievement” can be translated as “A relentless regimen of after-school drill-and-skill can raise scores a wee bit on tests of rote learning.”)" which supports my original post before replying to yours, "Teach for the test." To clarify what types of homework, I mean, homework related to teach for the test or homework with meaning. In addition, most homework are given a grade without any feedback; therefore, what is the point to do homework for teachers who provide no feedback?

3. Misread original post. Your reply is related to exposure. A student's chosen career path should be exposed to it to gain the motivation to what it takes to become what they desire because many students who are graduating High School are undecided what career path to chose upon entering college. Unemployment rising rates has little or no relations to school system. Section 8 will explain a lot or should I say, living on government; yet, driving a Lexus.
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