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Post Reply Is a utopian society the "great filter"? EXTENDED DISCUSSION
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Posted 1/5/15 , edited 1/5/15
Ok. So aliens.

This kinda deals with two subject that have come up on the internet sites that I've visited recently and hasn't seemed to make the connection anywhere else.

Fermi's paradox


The Great Filter:


So basically, there SHOULD by all measures of probability, lots of life crammed out there in outer space, but for some reason, we don't, and the idea of the great filter is that SOMETHING exists out there that prevents life from evolving past a certain stage.

Now the utopia part:
There have been some pointed experiments and sociologists that have also criticize a utopian society as one that drives us to a point of complacency and a loss of history and identity. Our needs feed our desires, and this in turn causes us to act. With all needs fullfilled, we begin to drop off like flies.

This can also be somewhat seen in current politics and societies. Industrialized nations have declining birth rates, despite the readily available resources (or even overabundant resources), and the worst affected are also the most stable and "happy" industrialized societies. Research economic disparity in various countries and you will find that economists warn that (of course) extreme disparity causes public discontent and destabilizes both economies and societies, but also that too much equality is bad as these societies begin to retreat and stop developing new technologies or stop being competitives, as do the individuals in said society.

So what if, the downfall of life and evolution is actually reaching a point where all needs are being taken care of?

What if utopia is the death knell for the nonexistence of more advanced life in the universe?
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Posted 1/5/15
Perfection is a good thing right? Say once we reached perfection, doesnt that mean that we have acomplished the final goal as an imperfect species? I say its fine to die out at that point.
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Posted 1/5/15 , edited 1/5/15

Krowzin wrote:

Perfection is a good thing right? Say once we reached perfection, doesnt that mean that we have acomplished the final goal as an imperfect species? I say its fine to die out at that point.


There is a next step.

Domination.

*cue music*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0bcRCCg01I#t=70
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Posted 1/5/15

skeepnunkey wrote:


Krowzin wrote:

Perfection is a good thing right? Say once we reached perfection, doesnt that mean that we have acomplished the final goal as an imperfect species? I say its fine to die out at that point.


There is a next step.

Domination.

*cue music*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0bcRCCg01I#t=70


If we were perfect whats the need for domination?

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Posted 1/5/15 , edited 1/5/15

Krowzin wrote:



If we were perfect whats the need for domination?



I'm just kidding lol
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Posted 1/5/15
But is perfection really an admirable goal if it only lasts for a brief moment?

What about the exploration of other systems, other ways of attaining perfection, of other concepts and other goals?

Is "perfection" synonymous with "utopia" or having all of one's needs met?
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Posted 1/5/15 , edited 1/5/15

serifsansserif wrote:

But is perfection really an admirable goal if it only lasts for a brief moment?

What about the exploration of other systems, other ways of attaining perfection, of other concepts and other goals?

Is "perfection" synonymous with "utopia" or having all of one's needs met?


In other words its better to stay imperfect forever rather than being perfect for a moment? Once we are perfect there wont be anything else. Everything that we desire/need would have been obtained, that seems like best we could be; what's the point of continuing?
Besides is there a way to measure perfection?

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Posted 1/5/15

Krowzin wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:

But is perfection really an admirable goal if it only lasts for a brief moment?

What about the exploration of other systems, other ways of attaining perfection, of other concepts and other goals?

Is "perfection" synonymous with "utopia" or having all of one's needs met?


In other words its better to stay imperfect forever rather than being perfect for a moment? Once we are perfect there wont be anything else. Everything that we desire would have been obtained, that seems like best we could be; what's the point of continuing?
Besides is there a way to measure perfection?



Or is perfection by default static, rather than a constantly changing closed (or open) system? One that can accept (or even plans) for destabilization or conflict in order to promote its survival? i.e. a closed ecosystem?



each thing dies, there is struggle for balance within the system, but it all balances perfectly so that in and of itself, the system needs nothing and is balanced and "perfect".

What about a perfect being that exists in a larger imperfect system, and thus acts as a catalyst (remaining relatively inert in and of itself, though creating change and interacting with other outside elements).

Why aren't these considered ideal or "perfect"?
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Posted 1/5/15 , edited 1/5/15

serifsansserif wrote:


Krowzin wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:

But is perfection really an admirable goal if it only lasts for a brief moment?

What about the exploration of other systems, other ways of attaining perfection, of other concepts and other goals?

Is "perfection" synonymous with "utopia" or having all of one's needs met?


In other words its better to stay imperfect forever rather than being perfect for a moment? Once we are perfect there wont be anything else. Everything that we desire would have been obtained, that seems like best we could be; what's the point of continuing?
Besides is there a way to measure perfection?



Or is perfection by default static, rather than a constantly changing closed (or open) system? One that can accept (or even plans) for destabilization or conflict in order to promote its survival? i.e. a closed ecosystem?



each thing dies, there is struggle for balance within the system, but it all balances perfectly so that in and of itself, the system needs nothing and is balanced and "perfect".

What about a perfect being that exists in a larger imperfect system, and thus acts as a catalyst (remaining relatively inert in and of itself, though creating change and interacting with other outside elements).

Why aren't these considered ideal or "perfect"?


Is that imperfect being not trying to change the environment around it into something perfect? Isn't it doing this because perfection is what it instinctively needs? Therefore it wont be perfect until everything else is, right?

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Posted 1/5/15

Krowzin wrote:
Is that imperfect being not trying to change the environment around it into something perfect? Isn't it doing this because perfection is what it instinctively needs? Therefore it wont be perfect until everything else is, right?



Touche, but my point was more to a being that does not need outside influence, is in and of itself uneeding of change, but can be still a part of a larger system that utilizes it as a means to change other things in the system. A veritable "philosopher's stone" as it were.

The first example given is to show perfection depends on what level if systems you are discussing. Imperfect parts that form perfection together.
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Posted 1/5/15 , edited 1/5/15
A utopia is never happening. Sorry to spoil your hopes and/or your fears but it won't ever occur.

We'll never have a perfect society because that implies that humans can become perfect beings. Everything we know of in the world is flawed and we are no exception. To imply we could become perfect implies not only refuses to take into account the vastly varying personality of the individual but also the flaws of the majority and the massive corruption present in nearly all political systems. Ultimately, a utopia will never happen for us -- if not because it's impossible than because it's improbable. And even if we were to achieve it we'd only be capable of doing so at a point of time immensely far from now.
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Posted 1/5/15

GrandmasterCoolio wrote:

A utopia is never happening. Sorry to spoil your hopes and/or your fears but it won't ever occur.

We'll never have a perfect society because that implies that humans can become perfect beings. Everything we know of in the world is flawed and we are no exception. To imply we could become perfect implies not only refuses to take into account the vastly varying personality of the individual but also the flaws of the majority and the massive corruption present in nearly all political systems. Ultimately, a utopia will never happen for us -- if not because it's impossible than because it's improbable. And even if we were to achieve it we'd only be capable of doing so at a point of time immensely far from now.


Then say once upon a time in that distant future, what happens when/ or after we create the utopia?
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Posted 1/5/15
If we create a utopia there are no problems to solve and no further room for development. Since all of human history is based off of development as well as two actions (fixing and making problems) I'd assume that once we have a perfect society with no flaws or problems we'd just drop right back down to imperfection.
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Posted 1/5/15
Even if we make the perfect society, Im sure we will have more problems later
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The declining birthrates in industrialized countries are brought about by many interacting factors, such as delayed childbirth due to greater educational access and labor force participation on the part of women, increased access to and use of contraceptive and abortion services, cultural differences concerning how many children is considered "the normal amount to have", recent economic performance, access to and affordability of leave and childcare services, and so on. To some extent giving people greater control of their reproductive futures and alternatives to reproducing does indeed feed into broader population decline.

The thing that's important to take into consideration, however, is that as automation continues to expand the need for large labor pool decreases. In a utopian society essentially every job is automated, so provided a sufficiently genetically diverse population is sustained it wouldn't matter how large or small it was anymore.
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