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Post Reply Freedom vs. Equality/Inclusionism EXTENDED DISCUSSION
Posted 3/24/15 , edited 3/24/15

serifsansserif wrote:

. Other times, the number of people affected is vastly greater than the number of people it protects, (peanuts being verboten in schools due to concerns about nut allergies that affect a very small portion of our population),


Ohhh Im allergic to peanuts though. You don't want me to die do you?
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Posted 3/24/15 , edited 3/24/15
It isn't about freedom, it's about what kind of future we want to live in and what ideals are passed on through time. Freedom is actually a fairly recent accomplishment when you look at mankind in general. I wouldn't be surprised if the idea of freedom stopped becoming so mainstream in the world because of the controversial inclusionistic views that some people have. Nothing lasts forever and time is always marching forward without a care for anyone or anything for it is something that dictates the flow of life itself. What we pass down to the next generation we hope will somehow stand the test of time(but how often does that happen in this day and age?) . But really, freedom? People can be free if they only seek it and believe they always have it. People with this spirit, such as people like Davy Crockett are what we should aspire to be like. He is my favorite western frontiersman and his spirit exists as a monument to what the majority of humans who walk the earth now lack. On a side note is that to me, his story is kinda like a shonen adventure anime story.

To that point OP: Can we even promote social change and progress without impinging upon the rights and freedoms of others? What would that look like? If only we would be able to obtain and process things similar to what I said above, we can do it. However it would come with many sacrifices because we take so many things for granted now.
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Posted 3/25/15
"Social engineering" has connotations that travel light years beyond regulations concerning someone's peanut allergy.
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Posted 3/25/15

archersea9 wrote:

It isn't about freedom, it's about what kind of future we want to live in and what ideals are passed on through time. Freedom is actually a fairly recent accomplishment when you look at mankind in general. I wouldn't be surprised if the idea of freedom stopped becoming so mainstream in the world because of the controversial inclusionistic views that some people have. Nothing lasts forever and time is always marching forward without a care for anyone or anything for it is something that dictates the flow of life itself. What we pass down to the next generation we hope will somehow stand the test of time(but how often does that happen in this day and age?) . But really, freedom? People can be free if they only seek it and believe they always have it. People with this spirit, such as people like Davy Crockett are what we should aspire to be like. He is my favorite western frontiersman and his spirit exists as a monument to what the majority of humans who walk the earth now lack. On a side note is that to me, his story is kinda like a shonen adventure anime story.

To that point OP: Can we even promote social change and progress without impinging upon the rights and freedoms of others? What would that look like? If only we would be able to obtain and process things similar to what I said above, we can do it. However it would come with many sacrifices because we take so many things for granted now.


We no longer live in a world with a frontier as Mister Crockett did, no matter where you go unless it is to an extreme like Syria or the Amazon you are in a civilized part of the world. this notion you can just seek freedom like that doesn't exist.In this modern world even those that claim they are doing this are not true living on a frontier since even they are still effected by society. It maybe the boonies but it isn't the wilds like it used to be. If I can reach you by road it isn't the frontier if you see someone more than once a week it isn't the frontier. Folks on the frontier could go months without seeing someone else. Maybe when we get out there this will change but right now we are stuck on the rock.

I stated this already once equality is freedom but freedom has a price the question you have to ask is how equal a society do you want and how willing are you to step on the toes of the few? The more equal a society in politics, economic, socially, and legally the more free people are the better chance they have of achieving the goals and dreams they may have. The price for freedom is those that have power need to cede it to those without. So to be more free everyone needs a more equal voice and to be treated more equally.

People really don't understand what freedom really is anymore the founders had a clear idea of this as being able to govern themselves and took the power of rule away from the few. This idea changed the way the world worked and is extremely progressive. But it started in their age with all men having equal voice in their government. We need to expand on this ideal all citizens should have an equal voice in government and equal treatment under the law and equal access to markets and be treated equally socially. With this all people become free.
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Posted 3/25/15
I don't think freedom and equality are mutually exclusive either; "Rock, Paper, Scissors" is a good example of that. So here's my analogy/anecdote,
(because I like them and find thing easier to understand with a well made analogy/story. By the way, if you find this post too long to read, just skip everything in parentheses from now on, you will still get everything)

if you have 2 people playing, one chooses rock, the other paper. The person who chose rock just lost, but they had the freedom to choose whatever option they wanted. In life everyone doesn't always come in first. So far everything is still equal too, chances of winning and losing that is, but let's say that, the person who lost kept losing for a long time. With the way people are, the loser would be looked upon negatively and the winner positively despite chances more or less being equal.

(let us cast a blind eye to body language reading skills for just a moment, and look purely from a numbers and probability point of view, in such a case, wins, losses and draws should be fairly even)

Inequality comes in (most distinctly) when the former "loser" starts to win again, a lot, after so many losses.

(even though if you were to look at more complex situations in life, differences of treatment would appear as early as the first or second "loss", but again let us remain simple for the sake of understanding)

Everyone is used to the "winner" winning, and the "loser" losing despite the chances for either being equal to begin with, and so special allowances are made. A do over here, and a "that doesn't count" there, and things are not quite so equal anymore. The "loser" is subjected to extra scrutiny that the "winner" often doesn't receive often making the "loser" resentful. Those on the "winners" side may even stoop to mild forms of sabotage to even the odds because the "loser" can't possibly win right? They must be cheating or something, and if the "winner" wins again, well, thats normal right?

(I'm assuming here that everyone can pick up on the discrepency/sarcasm in the last sentence, if your answer to it was "no" then congrats,... if you haven't realized by now that "winner" and "loser" are being used as proper nouns then... lol don't get confused)

Loss of freedom occurs when the opportunity to choose (going back to the analogy) rock, paper or scissors is limited. If even just the ability to choose scissors is gone, the chances of winning at all are nearly gone.

So in this context, inequality in life means your successes will matter less or very little, and loss of freedom/opportunity that you won't be able to make much of any success to begin with. In addition, going by my explanation I think its clear to see that freedom and equality work together and that equality is merely the higher end of the same tree.

OK! now for part 2! YAAAAY (I imagine a bunch of people reading this just logged out now lol, but I shall continue)

Now let us look at a different turn of events. Going back to the point just after our "loser" started winning some games instead of losing all the time. A third party

(or fourth if you consider that the "loser" would have also had his own posse although with much less sway than the "winners" posse since being associated with a "loser"... well you get it i'm sure)

notices whats starting to go on with the snowballing mistreatment during matches and mandates that only the "loser" be allowed to call for rematches or declare a round as having not counted. The win/loss ratio is close to 50/50 again, but now the "winner" is also holding resentment, because normalcy to them is 75/25 in their favor, and the "loser" can't possibly win.

(oh but I mean it this time, because people can, and do get to the point of being delusional when they want something to be one way and are too prideful to admit that they could be wrong)

The only problem here now, is that both sides somewhat kind of resent each other even though the situation is pretty balanced, and so it is with democracy kind of sort of... in a rock, paper, scissors way. The only way to truly solve the issue is if everyone would be good sports about it.

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Posted 3/25/15 , edited 3/25/15
why do i bother going to school, if i can learn so much about politics, philosophy, religion, etc on this forum lol and not to forget ANIME.
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