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Gods Will and Free Will
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
renako
not knowing of a republic of indonesia doesn't give you a valid reason to be so extraordinarily ignorant.
please get your FACTS right first before "inputting your thoughts to be looked at". it's hard to take someone, and their views, seriously when they do not even that Malaysia is in no way, near the same size as Indonesia, let alone being bigger than it.
i dare not challenge your statement, where you claimed that you were indeed taught just that. you might just be speaking the truth.
alas,
if it's the truth, i sincerely pray that you will gain some 'senility' and perhaps, some enlightenment as well.
you should consider shooting your teacher
but if that is too brutal for your liking (though he/she deserves nothing less)
you can always go the softer approach of having your teacher changed
only God knows what else is he/she teaching you.

in addition, you are typing in quite-perfect english, and for that I applaud you. however, i am dead sure that in english, or even quite-perfect english, you can never find the word "correctance". maintenance yes, but correctance? please buy yourself a good dictionary.

Still, thank you for providing such an "entertaining" and equally "appalling read. Really makes us wonder what is happening to our education system.

Damn, I can't get over the fact that someone said that Malaysia is "a hell lot bigger" than Indonesia. I really can't. I know people make mistakes. But to make such a huge one, yet with so much gusto and confidence, surely takes ignorance to newer height, no?
Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
if you are to look at the map i think the territory of Malaysia covers its tip Sabah which is closer to Phils, and a peninsula below Thailand. while the archipelago next to it in terms of the damn map below of it is Indonesia. Malaysia is composed of an Island and a peninsula. While Indonesia covers the archipelago below it, and Indonesia is closer to the equator than to Malaysia... Basing from the map, Indonesia is larger than Malaysia for it covers more land and islands than Malaysia for it only covers one island and a peninsula...



anyways continuing the discussion about god's will, i guess its wrong if we would say that it is only his will for he created us free will basing from biblical contexts. he had reasons in giving free will to us men and blah blah blah... in short, its not arguable that god indeed gave us free will. it is up to us to choose his will or our own will that's the entire idea...
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
Thanks for correcting the gross mistake about the size of Malaysia and Indonesia. That map is really good but a little outdated because it doesn't seem to reflect East Timor.

Anyway, back to the discussion on God's will and free will. I am a Christian and this was something that my friends and I debated on before. Actually, even Christians are split on this. Try reading up on Arminianism and Calvinism. http://www.spreadinglight.com/theology/armvscal.html
Arminianism asserts free will whereas Calvinism asserts predestination (God's will). That's a little simplistic way of putting it. After much reading of books and the Bible itself, I've concluded that God didn't create us to be his puppets. We all have a choice. It's just that because God himself knows the past, present and future, he already knows what we are going to choose. An illustration I like is an author of a book vs. the characters. The author of the book already knows how the story will turn out but the characters in the book won't know. This is because we are bound by time and space (we can't travel through time, as much as we would like to, and we can be at one place at a time only.) But God isn't. I hope I'm making sense.

As for Christian intellects, you can read books by C.S. Lewis, Josh MacDowell, Philip Yancey, Lee Strobel. They were all atheists who started out with trying to dismantle Christianity. Yet they eventually all became Christians.
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
Well, to me, this topic really isn't a problem.. cuz I'm a Buddhist. In Buddhism, we don't believe that an all-knowing or an all-powerful god created this world. To be precise, we don't believe that Buddha created the world as he was a human before he gained enlightenment.Instead, we believe in karma. . So, yeah.
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25 / M / Sleepy Land
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
Maybe free wills are actually planned and restricted by god's will?
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
ah... ehehehe..............
there is a god of course........
and because of freewill evil will do exist....
coz human can decide on their own..........
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:


sabakukyuu7 wrote:

Well, if God is supposed to be the embodiment of perfection, then surely he is not bound by what humans are. For us, there are constraints of place and time, but for God, he trascends that. Therefore for us there is neccessarily such a thing as a 'future' but this is not so for God. Therefore I don't think that the word 'predestination' applies to God. Its quite a paradox, because its hard to understand perfection, yet if we infuse God with human-like qualities to make him more understandable, then, God wouldn't be so perfect after all.

I think God made us with intellect and free will. If he wanted entities without free will He already had created the angels. The angels succumb to His will and do whatever He wants them to, therefore they do not commit any wrong doings. Humans, on the other hand, I believe, have a freedom of choice. Its not to say that God just leaves us to be and does not have a 'plan' for us. I think he puts obstacles along the way and see how we react to such obstacles. Say for example, we failed in doing something we had tried so hard to achieve. Whether we give up or not, whether we blame God or not, whatever we do then, that, I believe, stems from our own intellect and our own ability to choose to do whatever we want from that point on. Similarly,when opportunities present themselves to us, how we react to such things is by our own choice.


Yes we make choices based on our intellects. However god is the one who would have put things into motion to cause us to develop our intellects so therefore he must have wanted us to make those choices. We can therefore assume that every choice we make is a result of gods creation of the universe. Again I use dominoes as an example. He pushed down the first one knowing how the others would react to it. If he knows all and created the universe the way he did we must assume that knowing how it would play out everything that occurs is his will. Therefore free will is an illusion that does not exist if the major monotheistic faiths are true. If god is not ll knowing then the point is moot but we are discussing the all knowing god here,



I understand where you’re coming from, but I don't think I'm capable of answering that question, because I honestly don't know. Your question is sort of: What is in it for God when He created us? I can only try to convince you that God has granted us free will and intellect. I can’t even begin to comprehend God’s motives. But as I said, to us there is the notion of 'future' but to God, there isn't. Thus a sort of a timeline of our lives from the domino effect you speak of does not apply to God, only to us humans.

However, God asserts that true faith must be voluntary, and that he could have created humans to conform to his will but has nonetheless chosen not to. I think that is already a sign that God has given free will to humans. As to the intellect and free will that he has created humans with, borrowing an analogy from a friend, The inventor of the steamship did not determine the way in which the steamship would be used. In other words, God granted us intellect and free will but does not dictate the way in which we use our intellect. It is our decision the ways in which we choose to use it. We can assume that He wants us to make certain decisions, but whether we do or not, is up to us.

‘Had He willed He could indeed have guided all of you.’ (6:149)

In Dr Lang’s words, God often influences people’s perceptions and judgement, and guides them. ‘Within every mundane happening there are divinely planned opportunities for spiritual growth.’ ‘God creates for us an illusion of separation from Him to foster our personal development… Though the choice must be freely made, it is never independent of God, for he nurtures, receives and responds to that choice…’

Because I already believe in the existence of a God, I guess my answer is biased and perhaps unsatisfactory. :/

On an entirely different note, East Timor is actually on the map. Its just miniscule, maybe you missed it. Anyway, East Timor is now a country on its own, separated from Indonesia, right?
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
I believe that as humans we will never understand the complex relationship between free will and God's will. However I believe God wanted us to appreiciate(sp?) that we have a choice so that it will be our choice to love him not our obligation.
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
Simple. God doesn't exist. So why are there idiots letting themselves believe their very lives and existence is planned by God?

To tell you the truth there is no evil or good, thus letting all humans / animals be able to have free will. It's only religion that states how to present and do things correctly without causing harm, kudos to that. But because there is a barricade or metaphors and false stories covering the main reason of religion, people have bullshitted their way through a false belief.

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Religion is a set of stories told to force people to conform to preconceptualised ideals of right and wrong. Not only does that go against"God's "idea of freewill but the fact that "God" punishes us for not conforming to his ideals goes against God.

Religion is control. Morality is control. To be free, you must be immoral.
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
Wasnt the argument goes like "if god was all powerful, good, and perfect yet why does evil exist by Anselm. So the question was if there is really god knowing evil exist. And the argument is evil exist because he give us a choice (free will). God give us the decision to choose between evil and good. And Anselm argued that if god is all powerful why didnt he make us always choose good. Because it would seem that he made a mistake in creatin us as if we have the ability to acknowledge even what evil is, if he was all powerful couldnt he made it so that we are always happy in the first place. Blah lol...I dont know really..I dont see god as a being, force, object. Maybe there isnt even a proper word to describe the state of "GOD" yet. Oh well I do beileve we all started somewhere...and there should be a reason for the cause...but w/e lol
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:


sabakukyuu7 wrote:


I understand where you’re coming from, but I don't think I'm capable of answering that question, because I honestly don't know. Your question is sort of: What is in it for God when He created us? I can only try to convince you that God has granted us free will and intellect. I can’t even begin to comprehend God’s motives. But as I said, to us there is the notion of 'future' but to God, there isn't. Thus a sort of a timeline of our lives from the domino effect you speak of does not apply to God, only to us humans.

However, God asserts that true faith must be voluntary, and that he could have created humans to conform to his will but has nonetheless chosen not to. I think that is already a sign that God has given free will to humans. As to the intellect and free will that he has created humans with, borrowing an analogy from a friend, The inventor of the steamship did not determine the way in which the steamship would be used. In other words, God granted us intellect and free will but does not dictate the way in which we use our intellect. It is our decision the ways in which we choose to use it. We can assume that He wants us to make certain decisions, but whether we do or not, is up to us.

‘Had He willed He could indeed have guided all of you.’ (6:149)

In Dr Lang’s words, God often influences people’s perceptions and judgement, and guides them. ‘Within every mundane happening there are divinely planned opportunities for spiritual growth.’ ‘God creates for us an illusion of separation from Him to foster our personal development… Though the choice must be freely made, it is never independent of God, for he nurtures, receives and responds to that choice…’

Because I already believe in the existence of a God, I guess my answer is biased and perhaps unsatisfactory. :/

On an entirely different note, East Timor is actually on the map. Its just miniscule, maybe you missed it. Anyway, East Timor is now a country on its own, separated from Indonesia, right?

My point has nothing to do with gods motivation for creating humans. My arguement was about how free will can not exist in a universe created by an omniscient and all omnipotent god. You are correct you answer is unsatisfactory as it does not counter the logic of my arguement.


I didn't mean it that way. I meant that it was like God's motivation, something I cannot answer. I understand perfectly what you are saying. God created us, God is perfect, therefore he must know what path we are going to take and what happens in the end. Free will is thus an illusion because he controls everything.

Once again I quote Dr Lang,
Well 'God knows all things -> God knows the future -> The future is fixed -> God predetermines the future

God knows all things -> God knows Event A is happening tomorrow -> Event A happens tomorrow -> God predetermines Event A.

The weakest link in this chain of events is that (3) would neccessarily imply (4).'

Therefore even if He knows the outcome of what we are going to do it does not mean that He predetermines it. Yes, he granted us with free will and Intellect, and He sets off this train of dominos, and yes, He knows where it will go but He does not push the direction in which the dominos fall. They fall on their own accord. His knowledge of something happening in the future does not make it happen. He puts obstacles along the way and knows how we are going to react but does not manipulate the way in which we react. We react according to our own free will. Like when facing a forked road God knows which path we are going to take, he might nudge us into taking a certain path or avoiding another, but ultimately it is us, by our own choice, by the intellect that God has given us that we do take that certain path. God knows, that, by our own free will, we will pick that path to take.

So God creates humans with intellect and free will, and He puts us in an environment which He creates, and He knows the path that we are going to take, but He does not predetermine it. That is up to us. God is just and therefore would not create people just to condemn them to Hell.

And God trascends space and time, therefore, it cannot be imagined that God is living today and looking to tomorrow.
'Predestine' implies that God, at a certain time, had earlier decided that such and such events would happen. But this is to assume that God existed at a certain time and decided the future. But the future does not exist for God.

I apologise if this still does not counter the logic of your argument.
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:


sabakukyuu7 wrote:


magnus102 wrote:


sabakukyuu7 wrote:


I didn't mean it that way. I meant that it was like God's motivation, something I cannot answer. I understand perfectly what you are saying. God created us, God is perfect, therefore he must know what path we are going to take and what happens in the end. Free will is thus an illusion because he controls everything.

Once again I quote Dr Lang,
Well 'God knows all things -> God knows the future -> The future is fixed -> God predetermines the future

God knows all things -> God knows Event A is happening tomorrow -> Event A happens tomorrow -> God predetermines Event A.

The weakest link in this chain of events is that (3) would neccessarily imply (4).'

Therefore even if He knows the outcome of what we are going to do it does not mean that He predetermines it. Yes, he granted us with free will and Intellect, and He sets off this train of dominos, and yes, He knows where it will go but He does not push the direction in which the dominos fall. They fall on their own accord. His knowledge of something happening in the future does not make it happen. He puts obstacles along the way and knows how we are going to react but does not manipulate the way in which we react. We react according to our own free will. Like when facing a forked road God knows which path we are going to take, he might nudge us into taking a certain path or avoiding another, but ultimately it is us, by our own choice, by the intellect that God has given us that we do take that certain path. God knows, that, by our own free will, we will pick that path to take.

So God creates humans with intellect and free will, and He puts us in an environment which He creates, and He knows the path that we are going to take, but He does not predetermine it. That is up to us. God is just and therefore would not create people just to condemn them to Hell.

And God trascends space and time, therefore, it cannot be imagined that God is living today and looking to tomorrow.
'Predestine' implies that God, at a certain time, had earlier decided that such and such events would happen. But this is to assume that God existed at a certain time and decided the future. But the future does not exist for God.

I apologise if this still does not counter the logic of your argument.


My answer is that god is the cause of our intellect developing the way it has thus he is responsible for our decisions. Do you understand? Since he has created the universe to develop as it has and caused us to be born in certain families etc he is responsible for our intellects. Thus he has made your choices for you and free will is an illusion.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you mean something like If I'm born in certain conditions then there is a tendency for me to grow up in a certain way and become a certain person?
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
well it IS my life and God gave it to me as a gift, once u've given a gift u cant reli take it back.. so i can do anything i want with it, maybe he has a plan for me, maybe not, even if he does i dont reli kno wat it is nor do i care much, i'll just go on with my life and do wat i want and if i so happen to be following this 'plan' of his then great, we're both happy, if not, hell do i care

s'like being given a a block of wood as a gift and the gifter tells u to wittle it into a statue, but he gave it to u and its yours to do wat u like, he gave u a purpose for it but that duznt mean u HAVE to wittle a statue, u can leave it liek that and use it as a doorstopper or paperweight or something, s'ur choice
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:

Close to that. It more like everything that has happened making you who you are and not just conditions you were born in. After all you are more likely to be a muslim if you are raised so by a strong muslim family in a muslim country. Right? So if Islam is the true faith god is basically helping you get to heaven and not others.


Yep, I agree with you. What you said is undeniably true. If I was not born to a Muslim family chances are I would not believe in Islam. While our environment and the conditions nurture the person that we become I don't believe that the environment makes the person. God gives us intellect to think and make judgements on our own. After all we have the free will to seek the answers on our own. We have the free will to choose our own paths. The person that we become is also influenced by the choices that we make personally.While its undeniable that a Muslim growing up in a strong Muslim family is more likely to be a Muslim, there are those who choose not to be Muslims and vice versa.

'God is never unjust in the least degree. If there is any good, He doubles it, and gives from His intimacy and immense reward.' (4:40)

Meaning to say, if I am from a Muslim family, raised with Muslim values, and I do something which is in accordance to Islam, the rewards are not going to be as big as a new convert to Islam doing the same thing. The Quran is written in Arabic. For a Muslim who struggles to read Arabic, compared to a person who is fluent in Arabic, the reward of the first person is going to be more than that of the latter assuming they both read the same number of passages in the Quran. The Quran shows that the rewards of a good deed is different in differing situations, whereas the sins from a wrong-doing are similar.

In one of the Hadith stories, a murderer meets a holy man who teaches him the way to repentance. The murderer dies half-way through, but he is granted Heaven nonetheless because of his sincere attempts at repentance. God will not put an obstacle in your way which He knows you cannot surmount. I may be a Muslim, but I will not condemn someone else who is not because his good deeds might have more standing with God's than mine do.

''Our future reward is not based solely on the level of goodness we reach by life's end but also on the amount of progress we make in getting there. It is the moral and spiritual distance that we cover in this life- the progress that we make relative to what we have been given- that translates into our state in the next.'' Jeffrey Lang: Losing My Religion: A Call for Help

It is also the duty of the people who belong to the religion to spread the religion (i.e. evangelism, heh.) I think that's why so many people have tried to convert you. All those in any of the 'revealed religion' think of it as their duty to spread and defend their own religion. If we do not, we, as well, would be held accountable for that in the hereafter. Having said that, though, I maintain that I don't believe in forcing religion on others and that religion should be practised in a personal manner.
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