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Post Reply Ukrainian NATO Bid
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Posted 1/16/15 , edited 1/17/15
For those not familiar with it, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) is basically an organization of states which have agreed to militarily and economically cooperate, come to the defense of any member state in the event of aggression from a non-member state, and to standardize things such as language conventions, weapon specifications, and so on for the sake of easier cooperation. It used to be the rival of the Warsaw Pact, a comparable organization aligned with the former USSR. Several states which were previously members of the Warsaw Pact have since joined NATO, and given recent Russian aggression Ukraine's government has been taking steps to enter that group. Russia has, naturally, objected to this prospect given that it would position a NATO country along their southwestern border and put a damper on the argument that Russia has a historic patrimony over Ukraine.

My question to you, CR, is not a simple one, but it is an important one: should Ukraine join NATO? Personally, I argue that Russia has no such patrimony given the 1991 agreement which established Ukrainian sovereignty, and that Ukraine should join NATO as soon as it possibly can so as to avert further Russian aggression against it. I welcome closer Ukraine-European relations and Ukraine-US relations, and support the Poroshenko administration's efforts to bring Ukraine into NATO.
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Posted 1/16/15
From one shark tank into another. No matter who Ukraine sides with, its people will suffer. Putting a NATO member right on Russia's border is just asking for an escalation of a conflict that should've ended decades ago. You don't poke a bear with a stick and expect to be fine afterwards.
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Posted 1/16/15
Do you honestly and truly believe that Russia would do that? Engage NATO in its entirety over Ukraine? Risk nuclear warfare for it? I have serious doubts, and think that MAD theory still applies here. Russia would back off if Ukraine joined NATO, methinks. That's why Moscow is screaming bloody murder for that not to happen.
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Posted 1/16/15

BlueOni wrote:

Do you honestly and truly believe that Russia would do that? Engage NATO in its entirety over Ukraine? Risk nuclear warfare for it? I have serious doubts, and think that MAD theory still applies here. Russia would back off if Ukraine joined NATO, methinks. That's why Moscow is screaming bloody murder for that not to happen.


We're talking about Putin here. The only world leader more reckless and unstable than him is Kim Jong Un.
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Posted 1/16/15

PhantomGundam wrote:

We're talking about Putin here. The only world leader more reckless and unstable than him is Kim Jong Un.


No. Vladmir Putin is ruthless and aggressive, and shamelessly cruel to boot, but he's not stupid or insane. He knows that if and when Ukraine should join NATO he'll have no hope of seizing it. That's why he's funneling resources to the terrorists in Luhansk and Donbask, and it's why he seized Crimea. That's why there even is a "Ukraine crisis", because Russia witnessed in the Maidan protests that its control over Kiev had weakened to the point that it could possibly lose Ukraine altogether. Not particularly promising prospects for a country whose economy is primarily reliant upon oil trade considering its pipelines to its number one customers run right through a territory it seems to be about to lose its grip on, eh?
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Posted 1/16/15
Well, either way Ukraine still doesn't win anything. They exchanged a Russian puppet government for a western one.
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Posted 1/16/15

PhantomGundam wrote:

Well, either way Ukraine still doesn't win anything. They exchanged a Russian puppet government for a western one.


I disagree. The Poroshenko administration is far from perfect and has had to take some extreme measures (such as censoring Ukrainian media to filter out anti-Ukrainian propaganda) in order to fight back against Russian aggression, but all told I see a bright future for Ukraine and Ukrainians. If the people of Ukraine didn't believe that to be the case also, why would the Maidan have even happened?
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Posted 1/16/15
I believe that Ukraine should join NATO, it is important for a sovereign nation to make its own decision instead being dominated by a long dead Soviet Union. The only question is would NATO accept Ukraine with the possibility of further Russian aggression and be willing to stretch its resources. It is easy for countries who are a part NATO to talk big, Canada as a great example, but are they willing to take the action for it. Should we allow Russia to get away with such actions on a fear that a war might begin??
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Posted 1/16/15

Harjot21 wrote:

I believe that Ukraine should join NATO, it is important for a sovereign nation to make its own decision instead being dominated by a long dead Soviet Union.


*high fives*


The only question is would NATO accept Ukraine with the possibility of further Russian aggression and be willing to stretch its resources. It is easy for countries who are a part NATO to talk big, Canada as a great example, but are they willing to take the action for it.


Ah, what a wonderful question! Thank you for asking it. In fact, I'd say you've asked the billion dollar question, and I'm sorry I didn't include this in my OP. The US has expressed a favorable view of Ukrainian entry into NATO, and considering the greater bulk of NATO funding (about 80% if I'm remembering right) comes from the US, that's a good sign for their chances. Even still, you're right: there's an inherent risk to admitting Ukraine. Still, I think Moscow is rational enough to know not to pick a fight with NATO given they only have a green water navy and a single carrier fleet (seriously, the Russian navy is a wreck right now) against...what...the most powerful blue water navy ever known and allied forces which are obliged to help them? Ukraine should feel safe to join, and NATO should feel safe to welcome them.


Should we allow Russia to get away with such actions on a fear that a war might begin??


I'm not sure I understand this question. Are you asking whether Russia should be allowed to continue its invasion of Ukraine? I'd say absolutely no if that's it.
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Posted 1/16/15

PhantomGundam wrote:

From one shark tank into another. No matter who Ukraine sides with, its people will suffer. Putting a NATO member right on Russia's border is just asking for an escalation of a conflict that should've ended decades ago. You don't poke a bear with a stick and expect to be fine afterwards.


Estonia and Latvia which border Russia are NATO members; and the US has active military ties there. During the flare up leading to the Ukrainian incident the US deployed fighter wing and several thousand soldiers.
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Posted 1/16/15
Also, the US has tried in the past to get Ukraine to join NATO, President Bush had attempted to get Ukraine to join, but the Ukraining people voted against it. On a side note, since last year, support for joining NATO has skyrocketed.
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Posted 1/16/15 , edited 1/16/15

ZodiacA17 wrote:

Also, the US has tried in the past to get Ukraine to join NATO, President Bush had attempted to get Ukraine to join, but the Ukraining people voted against it. On a side note, since last year, support for joining NATO has skyrocketed.


That's no side note, that's the big opportunity for Ukraine. Under Yanukovych and his ilk the hope of Ukrainian freedom was but a dream, and now it's a potential reality: an opportunity to stand with and become a true liberal democracy with a thriving economy which is simultaneously socially conscious and as close to pareto efficient as the other will allow (I'm biased in my goals, preferring social results over pareto efficiency). Russia, given its recent international actions, electoral results, and legislation is still committed to the cause of authoritarianism. This cannot stand in Ukraine. Not anymore. Freedom. Now.
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Posted 1/16/15

BlueOni wrote:


ZodiacA17 wrote:

Also, the US has tried in the past to get Ukraine to join NATO, President Bush had attempted to get Ukraine to join, but the Ukraining people voted against it. On a side note, since last year, support for joining NATO has skyrocketed.


That's no side note, that's the big opportunity for Ukraine. Under Yanukovych and his ilk the hope of Ukrainian freedom was but a dream, and now it's a potential reality: an opportunity to stand with and become a true liberal democracy with a thriving economy which is simultaneously socially conscious and as close to pareto efficient as the other will allow (I'm biased in my goals, preferring social results over pareto efficiency). Russia, given its recent international actions, electoral results, and legislation is still committed to the cause of authoritarianism. This cannot stand in Ukraine. Not anymore. Freedom. Now.


I here ya, but it require a lot of affirmative action by many parties worldwide that just don't want to take it right now unfortunately. As a US citizen, our President and, unfortunately, most of congress still only care about how the world views them. Instead of taking decisive action. The US is and could be headed in a bad way socially and economically if we don't get our act together. That and Russia is under a financial collapse so they are going to do anything and everything they can to take anyone, especially the US, down with them. The Soviet Union (Russia) was a former country where hihg rnking officials stole nuclear weapons for themselves to ensure their long term power. So if **** hits the fan then the will be nothing left off the table for them. On that side note, their own egos may prevent nuclear war, but a conventional war, if started, would be, probably, at least ten times worse than WWII, once one side gets desperate enough.
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Posted 1/16/15
I have to side with Russia on this one. Although the most the Russians have done is seize the Crimea which is primarily Russian anyways which is to say most of eastern Ukraine is pro Russian. I find it hard to support the Ukrainian Government when they used snipers to shoot and kill protesters and Support a Nazi style ethic which is shown in the Government and several military units that wear Nazi and "Aryan"
Symbols on their uniforms. Mind you these units are fighting the rebels in the east. Not to mention the Ukraine owes the Russians a lot of money. Russia provides many resources to large parts of the country and to me it looks like trying to join NATO or the EU is like trying to get out of it kinda like finding and hiding behind the biggest guy you find because you dont wanna face the consequences of your actions.
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Posted 1/16/15
would NATO risk war with Russia for ukraine
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