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Post Reply Ukrainian NATO Bid
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Posted 1/16/15
I feel like Ukraine/Russia are going to end up as Serbia/Austria-Hungary v2.
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20 / M / Sweden
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Posted 1/16/15

centurion99 wrote:

would NATO risk war with Russia for ukraine


If they become a member then, yes they will. However If they're not a member with NATO then it's up to NATO to decide, however if one NATO state goes in then the entirety of NATO must join forces according to their agreements.
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Posted 1/16/15

BlueOni wrote:

For those not familiar with it, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) is basically an organization of states which have agreed to militarily cooperate, come to the defense of any member state in the event of aggression from a non-member state, and to standardize things such as language conventions, weapon specifications, and so on for the sake of easier cooperation. It used to be the rival of the Warsaw Pact, a comparable organization aligned with the former USSR. Several states which were previously members of the Warsaw Pact have since joined NATO, and given recent Russian aggression Ukraine's government has been taking steps to enter that group. Russia has, naturally, objected to this prospect given that it would position a NATO country along their southwestern border and put a damper on the argument that Russia has a historic patrimony over Ukraine.

My question to you, CR, is not a simple one, but it is an important one: should Ukraine join NATO? Personally, I argue that Russia has no such patrimony given the 1991 agreement which established Ukrainian sovereignty, and that Ukraine should join NATO as soon as it possibly can so as to avert further Russian aggression against it. I welcome closer Ukraine-European relations and Ukraine-US relations, and support the Poroshenko administration's efforts to bring Ukraine into NATO.


Depends on the situation. There are great things with NATO, but there's also a lot of bad things with it. I don't know how it is in Ukraine, but you can choose to join the army in Sweden... However, if Ukraine have a weak army then NATO might force everyone older then a certain age to join the army. Also, Ukraine isn't the richest of rich countries on earth and if they join NATO then they'll have to increase things like taxes.
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Posted 1/16/15

krasnovian wrote:

I have to side with Russia on this one. Although the most the Russians have done is seize the Crimea which is primarily Russian anyways which is to say most of eastern Ukraine is pro Russian. I find it hard to support the Ukrainian Government when they used snipers to shoot and kill protesters and Support a Nazi style ethic which is shown in the Government and several military units that wear Nazi and "Aryan"
Symbols on their uniforms. Mind you these units are fighting the rebels in the east. Not to mention the Ukraine owes the Russians a lot of money. Russia provides many resources to large parts of the country and to me it looks like trying to join NATO or the EU is like trying to get out of it kinda like finding and hiding behind the biggest guy you find because you dont wanna face the consequences of your actions.


i never knew about this. yes Ukraine should pay its debt but still what Russia is doing seems like going too far. is Ukraine worth it? Russia is most resourceful country in the world. if it works for development of its own resources, not only its economy will rival that of US soon, the world will be more peaceful place.
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Posted 1/16/15 , edited 1/16/15

krasnovian wrote:

I have to side with Russia on this one. Although the most the Russians have done is seize the Crimea which is primarily Russian anyways which is to say most of eastern Ukraine is pro Russian. I find it hard to support the Ukrainian Government when they used snipers to shoot and kill protesters and Support a Nazi style ethic which is shown in the Government and several military units that wear Nazi and "Aryan"
Symbols on their uniforms. Mind you these units are fighting the rebels in the east. Not to mention the Ukraine owes the Russians a lot of money. Russia provides many resources to large parts of the country and to me it looks like trying to join NATO or the EU is like trying to get out of it kinda like finding and hiding behind the biggest guy you find because you dont wanna face the consequences of your actions.


I think your timeline's a little screwy, because those protestors were shot by Berkut police snipers when Yanukovich was still in office. Those shootings occurred between Feb. 18-20. Yanukovich was formally removed from office after fleeing the country on the 21st. That means the pro-Russian side of this issue is implicated in those shootings. In fact, there are accusations that Yanukovich directly oversaw those activities.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26868119

As for a "Nazi-style ethic" in the current Ukrainian government, I'm going to need to see some sources to know what you're specifically talking about.

The debt Ukraine owes Russia is big, and in fact Ukraine has historically had a rather bad credit history, but that is not what started those protests and it is not why Ukraine is seeking NATO membership. What triggered this whole breakdown was Yanukovich's refusal to strike a popular trade deal with the EU because Russia pressured him not to do so. That is what sparked those protests. Ukraine is seeking NATO membership at this point because Russia's response to the protestors' successfully replacing the Yanukovich administration (this was legally done since he fled the country and was formally removed by parliament) was to start annexing Ukrainian territory.

Whether the majority of the people of Crimea are pro-Russian and favor separation or not is a secondary matter; what is primary is that the sovereign boundaries of Ukraine have been set and are not being respected. There are legal ways for pro-Russian people in eastern Ukraine and Russia to change those borders, and annexation isn't one of them. And even if those avenues should prove fruitless, even if Kiev were never to surrender its claim to that territory, there is one final option for someone who cannot stand to live under Kiev and absolutely must be governed from Moscow: emigrate to Russia.
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Posted 1/16/15
Do you have the faintest idea just how corrupt the government of Ukraine is


Get that gov in shape first before worry about joining anything
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Posted 1/16/15 , edited 1/16/15

nanikore2 wrote:

Do you have the faintest idea just how corrupt the government of Ukraine is


Get that gov in shape first before worry about joining anything


I'm guessing this is a figurative "you", not specifically me? I echo your concerns about the extent of corruption in the Ukrainian government for certain, but the process of admitting Ukraine to NATO wouldn't/won't(?) be a quick one. This isn't something that would happen in the next couple of months or something. It would take years for them to meet all the standards and be ready to go. There's time to start weeding out that corruption, and I completely agree that doing so should be a top priority.


TheOmegaForce70941 wrote:

Depends on the situation. There are great things with NATO, but there's also a lot of bad things with it. I don't know how it is in Ukraine, but you can choose to join the army in Sweden... However, if Ukraine have a weak army then NATO might force everyone older then a certain age to join the army. Also, Ukraine isn't the richest of rich countries on earth and if they join NATO then they'll have to increase things like taxes.


Now that's one of the big challenges, isn't it? Cost. Admitting Ukraine to NATO would be an expensive venture, and you're right: Ukraine isn't going to be able to pay for that right away. A way to delay the impact of the cost would be to provide Ukraine loans for the purpose of standardizing and such, but Ukraine has a pretty nasty credit history. I think you've hit on a pretty solid con here.
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21 / M / Long Island, NY
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Posted 1/16/15

Seriously, why aren't people talking about Ukraine anymore? It's not over.


Because this is CR... who wants to deal with politics of all things? It would turn into a shitstorm just because two people disagree with one another about how their sovereignty handle affairs, which wouldn't change anyways because Some Guy A thinks it should be done this way.
Posted 1/16/15
Personally I think that they should, although if so I somehow fear it may intensify their relations with Russia.
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Posted 1/16/15

GodGreatestEver wrote:


Seriously, why aren't people talking about Ukraine anymore? It's not over.


Because this is CR... who wants to deal with politics of all things? It would turn into a shitstorm just because two people disagree with one another about how their sovereignty handle affairs, which wouldn't change anyways because Some Guy A thinks it should be done this way.


It hasn't yet.
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Posted 1/16/15

PhantomGundam wrote:

Well, either way Ukraine still doesn't win anything. They exchanged a Russian puppet government for a western one.


Soooo....how exactly does joining a military alliance equal the installation of a puppet regime? I mean look at Turkey. They've been a NATO member since '52 and I'd hardly call Erdrogan a western puppet.

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Posted 1/16/15 , edited 1/16/15

BlueOni wrote:


GodGreatestEver wrote:


Seriously, why aren't people talking about Ukraine anymore? It's not over.


Because this is CR... who wants to deal with politics of all things? It would turn into a shitstorm just because two people disagree with one another about how their sovereignty handle affairs, which wouldn't change anyways because Some Guy A thinks it should be done this way.


It hasn't yet.


Dat 'yet' tho...
You lucky CR isn't Washington Post or New York Times or something.
It's like someone dropped a bomb on Pearl Harbor all over again every time politics come up.
Posted 1/16/15

BlueOni wrote:

For those not familiar with it, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) is basically an organization of states which have agreed to militarily cooperate, come to the defense of any member state in the event of aggression from a non-member state, and to standardize things such as language conventions, weapon specifications, and so on for the sake of easier cooperation. It used to be the rival of the Warsaw Pact, a comparable organization aligned with the former USSR. Several states which were previously members of the Warsaw Pact have since joined NATO, and given recent Russian aggression Ukraine's government has been taking steps to enter that group. Russia has, naturally, objected to this prospect given that it would position a NATO country along their southwestern border and put a damper on the argument that Russia has a historic patrimony over Ukraine.

My question to you, CR, is not a simple one, but it is an important one: should Ukraine join NATO? Personally, I argue that Russia has no such patrimony given the 1991 agreement which established Ukrainian sovereignty, and that Ukraine should join NATO as soon as it possibly can so as to avert further Russian aggression against it. I welcome closer Ukraine-European relations and Ukraine-US relations, and support the Poroshenko administration's efforts to bring Ukraine into NATO.


I changed my mind. I don't think it would be good for them at all. I don't think they should do anything to antagonize the former soviet union, esp with putin in charge.
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Posted 1/16/15 , edited 1/16/15
^

Are you concerned that Russia would increase the price of gas even more and cut off flow if Ukraine accepted loans to standardize or something? What are you specifically worried about? Putin has had to covertly send "volunteers" to Ukraine and is facing strong international condemnation for even doing what he has already done. He couldn't just open the floodgates and invade outright without serious consequences since he has no legitimate reason to do so.


GodGreatestEver wrote:

Dat 'yet' tho...
You lucky CR isn't Washington Post or New York Times or something.
It's like someone dropped a bomb on Pearl Harbor all over again every time politics come up.


Yes. I've even seen some online newspapers suspend their comments sections after things got too heated or overwhelmed by trolling. I'm aware I've brought up a heated issue, but I figured it was worth bringing up.
Posted 1/16/15

BlueOni wrote:

^

Are you concerned that Russia would increase the price of gas even more and cut off flow if Ukraine accepted loans to standardize or something? What are you specifically worried about? Putin has had to covertly send "volunteers" to Ukraine and is facing strong international condemnation for even doing what he has already done. He couldn't just open the floodgates and invade outright without serious consequences since he has no legitimate reason to do so.


GodGreatestEver wrote:

Dat 'yet' tho...
You lucky CR isn't Washington Post or New York Times or something.
It's like someone dropped a bomb on Pearl Harbor all over again every time politics come up.


Yes. I've even seen some online newspapers suspend their comments sections after things got too heated or overwhelmed by trolling. I'm aware I've brought up a heated issue, but I figured it was worth bringing up.


Dont be so dense. Russia could invade and kill a lot of people..
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