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Post Reply Ukrainian NATO Bid
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Posted 1/16/15

centurion99 wrote:

would NATO risk war with Russia for ukraine


Yeah, my thoughts exactly.
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Posted 1/16/15

GodGreatestEver wrote:


Seriously, why aren't people talking about Ukraine anymore? It's not over.


Because this is CR... who wants to deal with politics of all things? It would turn into a shitstorm just because two people disagree with one another about how their sovereignty handle affairs, which wouldn't change anyways because Some Guy A thinks it should be done this way.


I see you're new here, based on your total CR points. Just to let you know, there's a LOT of political threads here. They might be a minority, but they do pop up pretty frequently. Especially in the last few months of last year.
Posted 1/16/15 , edited 1/16/15

TheOmegaForce70941 wrote:


GodGreatestEver wrote:


Seriously, why aren't people talking about Ukraine anymore? It's not over.


Because this is CR... who wants to deal with politics of all things? It would turn into a shitstorm just because two people disagree with one another about how their sovereignty handle affairs, which wouldn't change anyways because Some Guy A thinks it should be done this way.


I see you're new here, based on your total CR points. Just to let you know, there's a LOT of political threads here. They might be a minority, but they do pop up pretty frequently. Especially in the last few months of last year.


That's one reason why Extended Discussion is gone. An attempt to make CR less toxic by removing a safe haven for those threads. Instead they get drowned out and watered down better in here

As for this one.. its really quite simple it doesn't matter what we think, the ukranian government has their border to worry about, and as someone else already stated, the eastern part of the country is sympathetic to Russia.
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Posted 1/16/15

BlueOni wrote:


TheOmegaForce70941 wrote:

Depends on the situation. There are great things with NATO, but there's also a lot of bad things with it. I don't know how it is in Ukraine, but you can choose to join the army in Sweden... However, if Ukraine have a weak army then NATO might force everyone older then a certain age to join the army. Also, Ukraine isn't the richest of rich countries on earth and if they join NATO then they'll have to increase things like taxes.


Now that's one of the big challenges, isn't it? Cost. Admitting Ukraine to NATO would be an expensive venture, and you're right: Ukraine isn't going to be able to pay for that right away. A way to delay the impact of the cost would be to provide Ukraine loans for the purpose of standardizing and such, but Ukraine has a pretty nasty credit history. I think you've hit on a pretty solid con here.


Loans isn't the perfect resolution to the problem at hand, they still need to have some way to pay for it later and if they don't pay back then the loan will just increase in size to the point where they might not be avail to pay it back. I'm not saying that countries doesn't have loans, since I know most countries have loans that they'll never be avail to fully re-pay (heck, I live in Sweden and out government loan 10.000SEK every second... And just look at the US and how much they loan).

However a investment like NATO takes resources and money for as long as the country remains a member. Thus meaning that NATO is a long time investment and therefore they'll have 2 options. 1, they could stay as they are and hope that russia doesn't go in further then they already have. And 2, if they join NATO then they'll have to increase taxes like crazy since Ukraine doesn't have anything (to my knowledge) that sells to other countries in big quantities.
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Posted 1/16/15

symphonicecho wrote:

Dont be so dense. Russia could invade and kill a lot of people..


There's no need to be rude. The fact is that Russia already has invaded Ukraine and a lot of people are already dying there. Russia seized Crimea in an annexation, its personnel have been spotted within other parts of Ukraine (that would be the "volunteers" I've mentioned), its trucks enter the country whether Kiev has consented to their entry or not, this is already happening.
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Posted 1/16/15

symphonicecho wrote:


TheOmegaForce70941 wrote:


GodGreatestEver wrote:


Seriously, why aren't people talking about Ukraine anymore? It's not over.


Because this is CR... who wants to deal with politics of all things? It would turn into a shitstorm just because two people disagree with one another about how their sovereignty handle affairs, which wouldn't change anyways because Some Guy A thinks it should be done this way.


I see you're new here, based on your total CR points. Just to let you know, there's a LOT of political threads here. They might be a minority, but they do pop up pretty frequently. Especially in the last few months of last year.


That's one reason why Extended Discussion is gone. An attempt to make CR less toxic by removing a safe haven for those threads. Instead they get drowned out and watered down better in here

As for this one.. its really quite simple it doesn't matter what we think, the ukranian government has their border to worry about, and as someone else already stated, the eastern part of the country is sympathetic to Russia.


But the political threads have gotten their ground on the general threads and not extended. Some threads got moved there, but I'd guess they closed it down when nobody posted stuff in there.
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Posted 1/16/15

TheOmegaForce70941 wrote:


GodGreatestEver wrote:


Seriously, why aren't people talking about Ukraine anymore? It's not over.


Because this is CR... who wants to deal with politics of all things? It would turn into a shitstorm just because two people disagree with one another about how their sovereignty handle affairs, which wouldn't change anyways because Some Guy A thinks it should be done this way.


I see you're new here, based on your total CR points. Just to let you know, there's a LOT of political threads here. They might be a minority, but they do pop up pretty frequently. Especially in the last few months of last year.


Oh god. Those anime-watchers must not be interested enough in whatever they're watching to mess with fire of all things. Politics can give third-degree burns. Even God of ice packs & XXX-large aloe vera can't save you.
Posted 1/16/15

BlueOni wrote:


symphonicecho wrote:

Dont be so dense. Russia could invade and kill a lot of people..


There's no need to be rude. The fact is that Russia already has invaded Ukraine and a lot of people are already dying there. Russia seized Crimea in an annexation, its personnel have been spotted within other parts of Ukraine (that would be the "volunteers" I've mentioned), its trucks enter the country whether Kiev has consented to their entry or not, this is already happening.


Was Not being rude, and I'm sorry you took it that way. But you should be focusing your attention on more relevant topics and not so much on beating dead horses NATO is well aware of the situation and if you have faith in them let them handle it. Its out of our hands. Now excuse me, I'm logging off now.~
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Posted 1/16/15

TheOmegaForce70941 wrote:

Loans isn't the perfect resolution to the problem at hand, they still need to have some way to pay for it later and if they don't pay back then the loan will just increase in size to the point where they might not be avail to pay it back. I'm not saying that countries doesn't have loans, since I know most countries have loans that they'll never be avail to fully re-pay (heck, I live in Sweden and out government loan 10.000SEK every second... And just look at the US and how much they loan).

However a investment like NATO takes resources and money for as long as the country remains a member. Thus meaning that NATO is a long time investment and therefore they'll have 2 options. 1, they could stay as they are and hope that russia doesn't go in further then they already have. And 2, if they join NATO then they'll have to increase taxes like crazy since Ukraine doesn't have anything (to my knowledge) that sells to other countries in big quantities.


Right, like I said: cost is a major barrier to their entry. You made a really good point, and I yield it. I really don't think that Ukraine is going to join NATO, whether that be because a change in power occurs in Kiev and that option is removed from the table or if Russia puts an even tighter economic squeeze on them and forces their hand.

Another argument in the thread which has some meat is that if and when Ukraine did join NATO conflict with Russia would increase in likelihood. I've been expressing doubts that Russia would escalate to a large scale invasion in response to Ukraine's trying to join and that there's nothing actually lost in that regard for their trying since Russia has already invaded, but there is still the very real worry that having Ukraine as a NATO member would further complicate several countries' relations with Russia and increase the risk of an eventual conflagration.

I'm not as strongly in favor as I was before given the long-term geopolitical results would be very risky and the cost would be particularly prohibitive, but the idea is one which I think at least belongs on the table along with the alternatives.
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Posted 1/16/15
Ukrain has always been will will always be russian only silly amercians think it wont be russian.
Putin will goto WW3 over Ukrain and obama just dosent have it in him to lead in a real war... ie his troops hate his guts to the point they have to be disarmed when obama is around... kinda sad huh?
I wouldnt wana be in Ukrain, Russia or Amercia obama is gona not back down and Putin will nuke the USA... fun time to be alive!
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Posted 1/17/15

BlueOni wrote:


TheOmegaForce70941 wrote:

Loans isn't the perfect resolution to the problem at hand, they still need to have some way to pay for it later and if they don't pay back then the loan will just increase in size to the point where they might not be avail to pay it back. I'm not saying that countries doesn't have loans, since I know most countries have loans that they'll never be avail to fully re-pay (heck, I live in Sweden and out government loan 10.000SEK every second... And just look at the US and how much they loan).

However a investment like NATO takes resources and money for as long as the country remains a member. Thus meaning that NATO is a long time investment and therefore they'll have 2 options. 1, they could stay as they are and hope that russia doesn't go in further then they already have. And 2, if they join NATO then they'll have to increase taxes like crazy since Ukraine doesn't have anything (to my knowledge) that sells to other countries in big quantities.


Right, like I said: cost is a major barrier to their entry. You made a really good point, and I yield it. I really don't think that Ukraine is going to join NATO, whether that be because a change in power occurs in Kiev and that option is removed from the table or if Russia puts an even tighter economic squeeze on them and forces their hand.

Another argument in the thread which has some meat is that if and when Ukraine did join NATO conflict with Russia would increase in likelihood. I've been expressing doubts that Russia would escalate to a large scale invasion in response to Ukraine's trying to join and that there's nothing actually lost in that regard for their trying since Russia has already invaded, but there is still the very real worry that having Ukraine as a NATO member would further complicate several countries' relations with Russia and increase the risk of an eventual conflagration.

I'm not as strongly in favor as I was before given the long-term geopolitical results would be very risky and the cost would be particularly prohibitive, but the idea is one which I think at least belongs on the table along with the alternatives.


Something that I think would make more sense for them to do is join the EU since that would force them to work with all other European countries and I think a country like Ukraine would profit greatly on that. However, I don't think NATO is something they should join due to their financial situations.
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Posted 1/17/15
I would have no issues with them joining, I think it's always better to try and include other countrie, especially in NATO, it's not like their as as many rules and regulations for joining NATO as there is a large economic powerhouse such as the EU. On top of that the priority is defence which is a positive thing.
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Posted 1/17/15 , edited 1/17/15

MrNekos wrote:

Ukrain has always been will will always be russian only silly amercians think it wont be russian.


Over 100 countries legally recognize Ukraine's sovereignty, and one of those is the Russian Federation. The rest of this post isn't worth responding to. Frankly, this wasn't really worthy of a response either, but I figured I would point this out for the benefit of any lurkers who might be confused.


TheOmegaForce70941 wrote:

Something that I think would make more sense for them to do is join the EU since that would force them to work with all other European countries and I think a country like Ukraine would profit greatly on that. However, I don't think NATO is something they should join due to their financial situations.


That's among the alternatives I had in mind, and it makes some sense. There's a lot to be gained from entering the EU, but Russia didn't even want Ukraine to strike a trade agreement with the EU. Ukraine attempting to join the EU outright would make Moscow furious.
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Posted 1/17/15

BlueOni wrote:


TheOmegaForce70941 wrote:

Something that I think would make more sense for them to do is join the EU since that would force them to work with all other European countries and I think a country like Ukraine would profit greatly on that. However, I don't think NATO is something they should join due to their financial situations.


That's among the alternatives I had in mind, and it makes some sense. There's a lot to be gained from entering the EU, but Russia didn't even want Ukraine to strike a trade agreement with the EU. Ukraine attempting to join the EU outright would make Moscow furious.


Let's just hope whatever they do doesn't lead to more fighting. And I think russia would prefer them to join the EU over NATO.
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Posted 1/17/15

TheOmegaForce70941 wrote:

Let's just hope whatever they do doesn't lead to more fighting. And I think russia would prefer them to join the EU over NATO.


True on both counts, Omega.
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