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Post Reply Times article - A Better Feminism
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Posted 3/8/15 , edited 3/8/15


I can't believe you just brought up the "If women want to be treated fairly, then it's okay to hit them."

In the culture we currently live in, Men and Misogyny have POWER.
"Men get abused too!" Yes, and that's wrong. But FAR more women get abused.
Gender-based violence kills as many Women (ages 15-44) as Cancer, Malaria, Traffic Accidents, and War COMBINED.

(edit:) This reminds me of you

Posted 3/8/15
Look at that, a male-dominated conversation about feminism.
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Posted 3/8/15



Gender-based violence kills as many Women (ages 15-44) as Cancer, Malaria, Traffic Accidents, and War COMBINED.




Are you sure that's really the statistic? I have a difficult time believing that. A quick Google search showed me a similar statistic, but was more believable and backed by a credible source (United Nations). Link:

Statistic acording to the World Bank data and presented by the UN:
Women aged 15-44 are more at risk from rape and domestic violence than from cancer, car accidents, war and malaria, according to World Bank data.


Now, while this certainly isn't as worse as you originally said -- killing more women (ages 15-44) as Cancer, Malaria, Traffic Accidents, and War COMBINED would be absolutely catastrophic -- I still find it troubling for apparent reasons.
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Posted 3/8/15

serifsansserif wrote:

http://time.com/3651057/a-better-feminism-for-2015/



Reads of Cathy Young articles are always refreshing. She has rarely ever not been precision accurate. Definitely a real titan in the arena of logical debate in gender equality.

You're on point OP, third wave feminism is a radical shift from the second wave. There is a conversion about equality within this brand of third wave feminism, but it's a toxic grind for equality of outcome as opposed to equality of opportunity; which is what (true) feminists such as the above quoted Cathy Young push for.

Third wavers hijacked the term "feminism," to the point where only a small percentage of people consider themselves feminists anymore, despite the pure meaning the term of the equality of genders (from an opportunity standpoint) as a held belief, which is what a increasing amount of people wish for despite the low percentage of people identifying as such. These third wavers scream for equality but only want special protections for women at the expense of men, which is textbook sexism. They're a lunatic fringe who is amplified by Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, and other outlets. They claim evidence is "a tool of the patriarchy" and other such nonsense. In the face of this, who would consider themselves a feminist?

Remember what Young wrote in the article though - this is about diversity of intellectual thought, not about labels. The best way to go about it is just to say that you're for equality of opportunity among the genders. Though, yes, the issue of labels is a real problem, considering how true feminism talks have been muddled by a confusing diatribe of rape culture myths and sensationalized statistics.

I am in agreement with the need to address the work-life balance situation for parents in the West. There are definitely battles to be fought abroad too, where women are distinctly socially disadvantaged for often dogmatic or illogical reasons. India and parts of the Middle East are hotspots in particular.

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Posted 3/9/15

KisaiGate wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:

http://time.com/3651057/a-better-feminism-for-2015/



Reads of Cathy Young articles are always refreshing. She has rarely ever not been precision accurate. Definitely a real titan in the arena of logical debate in gender equality.

You're on point OP, third wave feminism is a radical shift from the second wave. There is a conversion about equality within this brand of third wave feminism, but it's a toxic grind for equality of outcome as opposed to equality of opportunity; which is what (true) feminists such as the above quoted Cathy Young push for.

Third wavers hijacked the term "feminism," to the point where only a small percentage of people consider themselves feminists anymore, despite the pure meaning the term of the equality of genders (from an opportunity standpoint) as a held belief, which is what a increasing amount of people wish for despite the low percentage of people identifying as such. These third wavers scream for equality but only want special protections for women at the expense of men, which is textbook sexism. They're a lunatic fringe who is amplified by Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, and other outlets. They claim evidence is "a tool of the patriarchy" and other such nonsense. In the face of this, who would consider themselves a feminist?

Remember what Young wrote in the article though - this is about diversity of intellectual thought, not about labels. The best way to go about it is just to say that you're for equality of opportunity among the genders. Though, yes, the issue of labels is a real problem, considering how true feminism talks have been muddled by a confusing diatribe of rape culture myths and sensationalized statistics.

I am in agreement with the need to address the work-life balance situation for parents in the West. There are definitely battles to be fought abroad too, where women are distinctly socially disadvantaged for often dogmatic or illogical reasons. India and parts of the Middle East are hotspots in particular.


thank you. It was a pleasure to read your response and to be affirmed that I am not the only one that views feminism's original goals the same way and the misappropriation of what it has become.
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Posted 3/9/15
I believe in a woman and her opinions on the same level as myself, I do feel a lot of injustice is served to women in this world like that poor lady in India that got raped and murdered recently. However I don't really like the current feminist group, and I don't mean like 'all feminists' when I say that, its just in general like most civil rights activist groups they all start out with a good cause and then ultimately it turns corrupt and hidden agendas are pit forward. Many men have been treated like crap over really truly insignificant things, like that guy who landed the probe on the meteor/comet and instead of a high five he was made to apologize in tears. I just have a bad taste in my mouth with groups who label themselves as rights activists anymore because equality is out the window, its all about dominance and how much control they can achieve. Like a man said during the Ferguson protests, "Where was the black panthers and al sharpton when a 13 year old black boy was shot dead in his yard? Nowhere. Where were they when gangs are killing each other in the street, costing us Americas youth? Nowhere. But where are they when they see a political chance, where are they when its convenient? On national TV encouraging violence, encouraging hate." There are far too many walls between the sexes, and races.
Posted 3/9/15
Such a refreshing article. I enjoyed the read. Thank you...
Perhaps I'll come back and post my thoughts on Feminism another time when I've organized my thoughts.

As for you....


satansb wrote:

I can't believe you just brought up the "If women want to be treated fairly, then it's okay to hit them."

In the culture we currently live in, Men and Misogyny have POWER.
"Men get abused too!" Yes, and that's wrong. But FAR more women get abused.
Gender-based violence kills as many Women (ages 15-44) as Cancer, Malaria, Traffic Accidents, and War COMBINED.


(edit:) This reminds me of you



I can't believe you think making such comparisons would somehow make violence against the other gender a less important issue.

And that image.......

That's not how equality works, my dear.
That's what you call selfish entitlement.
Your issues are not the only ones worth addressing / fighting for.
Fighting for "equality" means fighting for EVERYONE'S issues regardless of their gender.
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Posted 3/9/15

serifsansserif wrote:

http://time.com/3651057/a-better-feminism-for-2015/

I stumbled across this a few weeks back.

Rather than posting in the whole "why are you against feminism" debate, I figure I'd rather start a discussion based on this article, which, hopefully may lead into a more positive direction.

For me, I grew up in the 80's which meant that I went through the biggest push for equality amongst the sexes in a LOOOONG time. This was the time where longitudinal studies between the sexes were being published frequently, where women pushed to stop color coding babies (blue for boys, pink for girls). In the schools we were taught as children to avoid sexist language. It's now a waitress, it's a server, it's not a stewardess, it's a flight attendant.. etc.

During the 90's I got to witness the change of the definition of rape in the eyes of the law to include men as possible victims of the crime, and if you read the FBI handbook now on how to identify sexual harassment, it's quite a magnificent piece of work in gender and sexual orientation inclusion.(I, unfortunately, can't find it on their site again :P)

I witness an unprecidented number of strong female figures rise to power and fame, and too this day, see more women dominating the conversations we have about policy. It was during the past 40 years that we've had, not once, but twice women run for presidential office, and there's a very likely chance that our last female candidate may run again in years.

The pay gap, according to pew research, is approximately 7 cents for each newly minted worker, although child rearing and career choices seem to make it difficult in maintaining that close number (on the other hand, more men than women find dissatisfaction at how much time they spend trying to raise their kids).

For all of the possibilities that feminism has made possible, I'm thrilled to see them come to fruition during the 90's and even into the 00's. But somewhere along the way, feminism changed. And it changed particularly last year. It seemed like once we had finally come ever so close to achieving a level of equality for women, the dialog changed from equality to something else.

In the end, I have to admit, I agree that if I am going to go back to being pro feminism, some things need to change, and the article is perhaps one of the best critiques of the movement that I've seen.

Please, read and discuss.


That article(and OP) I totally agree with.

When you can get a MRA and a Feminist to agree(instead of slinging mud) then we should be moving forward. Because they both want equality.
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Posted 3/9/15
Modern feminists don't know what feminism is about, it's about equality. Which means women's issues should be addressed, but not put above men's issues.
Rohzek 
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Posted 3/9/15 , edited 3/9/15
Feminism is a pretty big tent and all-encompassing term. At any rate, yeah 2014 was a bad year of publicity. I was extremely upset about that shooting in California. As an American, I was like "oh, another tragic shooting." But it was different mainly because a large group of people tried to assign social responsibility to all white males, which I am. So I took it very personally. I'm not a big fan of arguments in favor of collective responsibility, mostly because measuring it is next to impossible. They also lead to witch hunts, as though this was Puritan New England all over again.

Another big problem was with college rapes. Rape is a crime, and should not be handled by the universities. It should be handled by the appropriate government authorities. Universities don't have the same standards for any sort of trial. There is no "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt." I had a friend accused of stalking and sexual harassment in graduate school. He was quickly expelled without being given a chance. He filed a lawsuit for unjust procedures and racial discrimination. He won. It just goes to show how ill-equiped colleges really are to handle criminal cases.

I'm not willing to brand modern feminism as all bad. It's a broad term, and I happen to know a lot of good people who identify themselves openly and regularly as feminists. It's just that in this day in age, the terrible tumblr "activists" happen to be the loudest ones in the room. It's a shame, because I find most tumblr "activists" are exactly as what one columnist labelled as "those who hold victimhood as a coveted status." I find their mentality as pathetic and weak.
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Posted 3/9/15


I am only 15, and I have not lived through these times (90s) where feminism was apparently a strong and just movement. Accordingly I have only seen or come into contact with it as it is at the moment. However it appears to me that nowadays the good ideals of equality for both genders have been misinterpreted by many. More than a movement towards rights and equality it seems to me like feminism is currently more of a "fashion" as it is used by many schoolgirls and immature celebrities as an excuse to scrutinize for any chance to take a potshot at men and sometimes the whole idea of proclaiming ones self a feminist seems childish. Feminism is a great ideal in my eyes but the sheer extremism of the views some so called feminists are downright ridiculous. Furthermore feminists I encounter don't seem to have any inclusion or concern for the activism part of feminism, campaigning and working towards a better future for women but instead use it to insult others and sometimes even use the word feminism to justify seriously ridiculous opinions.

Again I did not live through the 90s, I am not "Slagging off" feminism and I am aware that there are probably many feminists who work towards a brighter future for women and who regardless of societies gender imbalance have respect for people despite their sex. But I am simply sharing how feminism comes across from the perspective of a young individual growing up in the present day.
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Posted 3/9/15

Rohzek wrote:

Another big problem was with college rapes. Rape is a crime, and should not be handled by the universities. It should be handled by the appropriate government authorities. Universities don't have the same standards for any sort of trial. There is no "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt." I had a friend accused of stalking and sexual harassment in graduate school. He was quickly expelled without being given a chance. He filed a lawsuit for unjust procedures and racial discrimination. He won. It just goes to show how ill-equiped colleges really are to handle criminal cases.


In principle that's exactly how things ought to go. In practice, however, there are some hurdles to be overcome. Prosecutors tend toward cases they actually think stand a strong chance of going through to a conviction since they've a limited amount of money and time to devote to the enormous amount of cases they receive, and unfortunately that frequently translates into passing on prosecuting rape cases unless they're especially strong. It's certainly not the responsibility of universities to pick up the judicial system's slack, but it's also not as straightforward as saying that rape cases ought to be handled in public courts instead of by university proceedings. There's only so much money, so many prosecutors/defenders to work with, and so many hours in a day for court proceedings to occur.

Part of the call for increasing the attention of prosecutors and defenders toward rape cases is to call for increased funding for them to work with. Another part of it is to better enable law enforcement to respond to incidents by getting universities to more accurately represent the rates of incidents on their campuses, as some have underreported this information. Yet a third thing to do is to seek to make the processes by which universities' decisions are made in response to incidents (suspensions, expulsions, and so forth) as transparent as is possible in each specific case, and to ensure that these decisions aren't being made in a kangaroo court sort of way.
Posted 3/9/15
Idealism is always welcome.
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Posted 3/9/15
That was a very nice article on the matter and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who felt uncomfortable with the subject of feminism this past year. I understand that there can be underlying inequality in society but it seemed that feminists were just lashing out to do so. I'm all for women being on truly equal terms with men, but I think people need to realize that life is inherently unequal. This is just my rather uneducated opinion on the matter, but it feels like a good portion of feminists act like children who see something and say, "hey, I want that! Why can't I have it?" Rather than managing life with the hand they're dealt. I'm not saying that feminists are a terrible thing, it's quite the opposite. Like I said, I'm sure there is inequality out there, and it's fantastic that so many people are trying to bring attention to it, but people need to remain civilized and not point fingers at one another.

Equality will only be attained when humanity, as a whole, learns to work together, to solve problems, and to forgive one another and learn from their mistakes. We live in an imperfect world where there inevitably will be people who are richer than others, so the only way to equality, in my eyes, is for people to stop worrying about themselves first. Life is harsh and it's easy to point fingers than to face the facts. The faster we learn this lesson, the better.

Quick note, I have no intention to say that men are perfect beings, if you somehow arrive at that conclusion. Men are just as much to blame for this negative image of feminism as the women who cry inequality over petty things.
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Posted 3/9/15

Thehakimrawz wrote:



I am only 15, and I have not lived through these times (90s) where feminism was apparently a strong and just movement. Accordingly I have only seen or come into contact with it as it is at the moment. However it appears to me that nowadays the good ideals of equality for both genders have been misinterpreted by many. More than a movement towards rights and equality it seems to me like feminism is currently more of a "fashion" as it is used by many schoolgirls and immature celebrities as an excuse to scrutinize for any chance to take a potshot at men and sometimes the whole idea of proclaiming ones self a feminist seems childish. Feminism is a great ideal in my eyes but the sheer extremism of the views some so called feminists are downright ridiculous. Furthermore feminists I encounter don't seem to have any inclusion or concern for the activism part of feminism, campaigning and working towards a better future for women but instead use it to insult others and sometimes even use the word feminism to justify seriously ridiculous opinions.

Again I did not live through the 90s, I am not "Slagging off" feminism and I am aware that there are probably many feminists who work towards a brighter future for women and who regardless of societies gender imbalance have respect for people despite their sex. But I am simply sharing how feminism comes across from the perspective of a young individual growing up in the present day.


You've run into the textbook third wave feminists I talked about earlier, and the kind of feminists that caused OP to shy away from using the term. This is actually what a lot of classical feminists fear - that the image of the term has been marred to the new generation, and according to your post, it has. You're absolutely not wrong about the extremism being balderdash and worthy of ridicule.

To make things worse, a lot of these third wavers are trying to sell curriculum that favors their viewpoints to elementary and middle schools, and that's the last thing we need.
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