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Post Reply Is prison a necessary thing
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Posted 1/21/15 , edited 1/22/15

the title was not very well thought out so before reading any further please take this into consideration and place the title on the backburner but don't throw it out it is still a valid discussion point



How is the prison industry affecting the united states???



from my point of view, jail in the united states has become a very toxic entity. here are my reasons for thinking this way:

-prison has turned into an industry of it's own. inmates are being used to work for corporations, but they are only getting paid less than half if not a quarter of what they would be paid, say they were a legitimate employee working of his own free will. there are more than a few things wrong with this but to list a few,

1)this is taking jobs from citizens who need them (and people bitch about illegal aliens, they aren't taking your jobs, prisoners are taking the jobs of skilled workers not unskilled ones!)

2) by paying people who are jailed instead of ones who are free they are hurting the us economy. prisoners are not paid nearly as much as a hired laborer would be, so job positions are being filled without pay going into the economy in fact, if anything this is funneling the wealth back into the hands of already rich corporation owners and away from the working class.

3) because of the huge amount of money that corporations can save and the large amount of money paid to prisons when they outsource their inmates to private corporations, we have re instilled slave trade within this country. laws are being passed with overly harsh punishments and extreme jail time. over 80 percent of the person housed in prisons today are non-violent non-dangerous criminals. lobbyists are being sent to pass these laws and lawmakers are accepting bribes so they can fuel their work force. prison is even a stock on wall street that is considered a good long term investment!


Victimless Crime Constitutes 86% of The Federal Prison Population

by michaelsuede • September 29, 2011


i have a lot more to say but this post is getting too long we can discuss this first then ill continue after...

so what do you think about these points here or maybe you have totally your own opinion, lets talk about it. [
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Posted 1/21/15


You are correct; although the 80% statistic is exaggerated - here are the proper stats from the justice bureau for 2013

„ State and federal correctional facilities held an estimated
1,574,700 prisoners on December 31, 2013, an increase of
4,300 prisoners over yearend 2012.


„ The 3-year decline in the prison population stopped in
2013 due to an increase of 6,300 inmates (0.5%) in the state
prison population.
„
The federal prison population decreased in size for the first
time since 1980 with 1,900 fewer prisoners in 2013 than
in 2012.

„
The number of prisoners sentenced to more than a year
in state or federal prison increased by 5,400 persons from
yearend 2012 to yearend 2013.

„ The number of persons admitted to state or federal prison
during 2013 rose by 4%, from 608,400 in 2012 to 631,200
in 2013.

„ The total imprisonment rate for prisoners sentenced to more
than a year in state or federal prison decreased by less than
1%, from 480 per 100,000 U.S. residents in 2012 to 478 in 2013.

„ Private prisons held 8% of the total U.S. prison population
at yearend 2013, and local jails housed an additional 5%
of prisoners.

„ Prisoners under the jurisdiction of the Federal Bureau of
Prisons (BOP) accounted for 31% (41,200) of all inmates
housed in private facilities in 2013.

„ Almost 3% of black male U.S. residents of all ages were
imprisoned on December 31, 2013, compared to 0.5% of
white males.

„ Inmates sentenced for violent offenses comprised 54% of the
state prison population in 2012, the most recent year for which
data were available.
Posted 1/21/15
I agree with you wholeheartily that giving inmates jobs and paying them leaves quite an impact on employment rates and the economy, and the fact that corporations don't have to pay as much and profit more. Instead of getting rid of incarceration altogether I feel that they shoudn't be given the opportunity for work, the reasoning behind this is that there are quite dangerous people, murderers, rapists, child molesters , etc., that need to be put away for the greater good of society. in light of that need for prison I think they are a necessary evil, but giving them jobs to waste on their commissary is not.
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Posted 1/21/15



But to address the question at hand in a non statistical manner; the most alarming fact about prison statistics are the enormous amount of money that goes into funding of the inmates themselves. (see pics below) - The other part of this is the fact that we have private prisons - that is very alarming. We are paying citizens and corporations to privately hold our own??? That is indeed very wrong as you have pointed out.

I say you fix the problem by ending the War On Drugs & put the money that goes into the prisons & DEA, DTF, & other organizations into helping those with a genuine addiction problem. & leave the real criminals to die.



Posted 1/21/15
here I thought it was child labour in china or india that's taking away people's jobs.
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Posted 1/21/15


Also, an argument you may find more appealing for your job correlation is the fact that prison inmates struggle to find jobs after they get out; Although the U.S. Department of Labor does not track the unemployment rate for former offenders, experts estimate the jobless rate for individuals with a prison record is from 40 percent to 60 percent.
Rohzek 
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Posted 1/21/15 , edited 1/21/15
I think the system should certainly be overhauled. We have way more prisoners than necessary. We can start reforming by ending the drug war.

As for the necessity of jails in general, I think we need them. Back in medieval societies, there weren't any jails. However, people were forced to pay financial restitution for their crimes. If that was not an option, then they were exiled. Exile might not sound like a serious thing to us these days, but back then people really distrusted outsiders. If you weren't a travelling merchant or something, nobody would talk to you if you were an outsider. Considering such a system wouldn't work with our culture, since geographical movement and strangers are now a very common thing with not much of a taboo, I think a prison system is our only alternative.
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Posted 1/21/15

[

i have a lot more to say but this post is getting too long we can discuss this first then ill continue after...

so what do you think about these points here or maybe you have totally your own opinion, lets talk about it.


Also, an argument you may find more appealing for your job correlation is the fact that prison inmates struggle to find jobs after they get out; Although the U.S. Department of Labor does not track the unemployment rate for former offenders, experts estimate the jobless rate for individuals with a prison record is from 40 percent to 60 percent.

very true indeed.

here are more reasons to add to the list

as you stated having private prisons facilitate prisoners is sooo wrong. think about it someone is charged with a crime, then their life is placed into the hands of a private corporation, who does not have anyone's best interest tin mind. they do not care if the person becomes rehabilitated to live amongst society again after their release. all that they care about is making money. human beings are literally used as livestock.

(here is a scenario) i didn't just make this up i have seen this happen to people

a guy gets captured off the street for something that doesn't hurt anybody else like smoking pot, he is held against his will, and sold to a private prison, the prison sells him to a work force and the only benefactors are the ceo's running this whole freak show.

then dude gets let go however many years later after being completely depraved of any sort of positivity or human contact or love, in fact for this whole time it has been quite the opposite, a bunch of dudes acting all macho and being total assholes and to top it off this guy is now more criminal than he ever would have become had he not been made to try and fit in with real criminals in prison. now this guy doesn't know how to respect shit because he just had a lack there of drilled into his head every day for years. and the prison system just successfully created a real dangerous criminal out of a non dangerous one and then loosed them on society to be jobless desperate and robbing peoples houses.

my point being, anyone who is into running a prison to make loads of money doesn't give a shit about society, people, hell they are most likely a complete fucking psychopath if they chose to do that in the first place. they are not public servants and they definitely don't have this countries well being in mind when they decide how to treat and rehabilitate prisoners.
Posted 1/21/15 , edited 1/21/15


Also, an argument you may find more appealing for your job correlation is the fact that prison inmates struggle to find jobs after they get out; Although the U.S. Department of Labor does not track the unemployment rate for former offenders, experts estimate the jobless rate for individuals with a prison record is from 40 percent to 60 percent.

very true indeed.

here are more reasons to add to the list

as you stated having private prisons facilitate prisoners is sooo wrong. think about it someone is charged with a crime, then their life is placed into the hands of a private corporation, who does not have anyone's best interest tin mind. they do not care if the person becomes rehabilitated to live amongst society again after their release. all that they care about is making money. human beings are literally used as livestock.

(here is a scenario) i didn't just make this up i have seen this happen to people

a guy gets captured off the street for something that doesn't hurt anybody else like smoking pot, he is held against his will, and sold to a private prison, the prison sells him to a work force and the only benefactors are the ceo's running this whole freak show.

then dude gets let go however many years later after being completely depraved of any sort of positivity or human contact or love, in fact for this whole time it has been quite the opposite, a bunch of dudes acting all macho and being total assholes and to top it off this guy is now more criminal than he ever would have become had he not been made to try and fit in with real criminals in prison. now this guy doesn't know how to respect shit because he just had a lack there of drilled into his head every day for years. and the prison system just successfully created a real dangerous criminal out of a non dangerous one and then loosed them on society to be jobless desperate and robbing peoples houses.

my point being, anyone who is into running a prison to make loads of money doesn't give a shit about society, people, hell they are most likely a complete fucking psychopath if they chose to do that in the first place. they are not public servants and they definitely don't have this countries well being in mind when they decide how to treat and rehabilitate prisoners.

Prisons are like schools for criminals. In there a person has to become hardened like the other inmates in order to survive. They should only be used for violent criminals and dangerous sexual predators, but please don't suggest eliminating prisons altogether. The system needs overhauled and amended, but we have to protect society from the criminals that ARE dangerous.

I think not only prison reform, but criminal law codes need changed. Marijuana sounds hardly an offense worth of prison, although possession with intent to sell is punishable with prison, it shouldn't be.
,

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Posted 1/21/15
Most of what you guys are stating are either just straight up facts or opinions. Maybe one post actually said what should be done. If you wouldn't have them work what would you have them do? I agree that the main issue isn't the prisoners themselves, but the people who run them. Prison is basically a school at this point a very bad high school, yes it has helped some people that have gone to prison, but I would say the majority either end up right back in prison or worse.

I would say prison should be like a job and as sort of "home". I think the the real goal of prison should be to set the ones who made minor mistakes into proper citizens and the prisoners who commit bigger crimes get little to no leeway. They of course get a chance to redeem themselves like everyone else. Meaning that they should be working, should be relatively free work, but even then that doesn't matter. It allows them to show the type of people they really are. Most people work crappy jobs at a young age so they can get recommendations for the future jobs they want along with the money of course. The guards, wardens, and anyone else involved with the prison have the best insight on the type of people they look over and should get a bigger say in the type of restrictions they should get when they leave prison.

This leads to another problem after they get out and that is no one actually cares or watches these people after they get out of prison. They maybe great people in prison, but when they get into a bad environment with no help of course they are going to mess up again. It would be a miracle if they didn't. Freedom gives the idea that people can do whatever they want and a ex-prisoner getting his freedom back after possible years means he will make mistakes.That being said, I think the focus should be on the probation officers and other programs to help people who get out of prison.

Of course I realize there are examples of people really caring for prisoners who get another chance, but their clearly isn't enough. This is just what I would do if and I'm sure there are some prisons out there that are like this.

Posted 1/21/15 , edited 1/21/15

drake3716 wrote:

Most of what you guys are stating are either just straight up facts or opinions. Maybe one post actually said what should be done. If you wouldn't have them work what would you have them do? I agree that the main issue isn't the prisoners themselves, but the people who run them. Prison is basically a school at this point a very bad high school, yes it has helped some people that have gone to prison, but I would say the majority either end up right back in prison or worse.

I would say prison should be like a job and as sort of "home". I think the the real goal of prison should be to set the ones who made minor mistakes into proper citizens and the prisoners who commit bigger crimes get little to no leeway. They of course get a chance to redeem themselves like everyone else. Meaning that they should be working, should be relatively free work, but even then that doesn't matter. It allows them to show the type of people they really are. Most people work crappy jobs at a young age so they can get recommendations for the future jobs they want along with the money of course. The guards, wardens, and anyone else involved with the prison have the best insight on the type of people they look over and should get a bigger say in the type of restrictions they should get when they leave prison.

This leads to another problem after they get out and that is no one actually cares or watches these people after they get out of prison. They maybe great people in prison, but when they get into a bad environment with no help of course they are going to mess up again. It would be a miracle if they didn't. Freedom gives the idea that people can do whatever they want and a ex-prisoner getting his freedom back after possible years means he will make mistakes.That being said, I think the focus should be on the probation officers and other programs to help people who get out of prison.

Of course I realize there are examples of people really caring for prisoners who get another chance, but their clearly isn't enough. This is just what I would do if and I'm sure there are some prisons out there that are like this.



Its true, they are schools and it should be the administration's job to properly reform inmates, Parolees need a support system in place to lower the recitivism rate. Have education programs readily accessible. As for the jobs, it should be like community service. Mandatory work them period, no pay. Some places do just that.
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Posted 1/22/15
I don't think you are wrong but I don't see what else can be done really, or I can't think of anything at least. I visited our State Penitentiary last year for things on alternate employee pools for a Recruitment and Retention class and they offer quite a bit of shit. I don't remember a lot but I do remember that inmates can get certified to be hair dressers while in prison ha. And education like high school degree stuff and they can earn certificates(I don't remember the term) in things like masonry and stuff on that line. There is work release programs and such too obviously.

They don't just throw people in jail and then let them out when it's time to go, but it is a two way street, the inmates have to make the effort too. I don't think there is any quick fix for the system, I'm doubtful anything drastic will happen in my lifetime.
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Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15
To hell with Prisons, lets just skip that step and execute on spot:
-Drug Dealers
-Murderers(unless it was justified)
-Pedophiles
-Rapists
-Terrorists
-Serial Killers
i.e anyone that commited a violent crime
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Posted 1/22/15

symphonicecho wrote:


drake3716 wrote:

. Prison is basically a school at this point a very bad high school, yes it has helped some people that have gone to prison, but I would say the majority either end up right back in prison or worse.

I would say prison should be like a job and as sort of "home". I think the the real goal of prison should be to set the ones who made minor mistakes into proper citizens and the prisoners who commit bigger crimes get little to no leeway. They of course get a chance to redeem themselves like everyone else. Meaning that they should be working, should be relatively free work, but even then that doesn't matter. It allows them to show the type of people they really are. Most people work crappy jobs at a young age so they can get recommendations for the future jobs they want along with the money of course. The guards, wardens, and anyone else involved with the prison have the best insight on the type of people they look over and should get a bigger say in the type of restrictions they should get when they leave prison.



Of course I realize there are examples of people really caring for prisoners who get another chance, but their clearly isn't enough. This is just what I would do if and I'm sure there are some prisons out there that are like this.



Its true, they are schools and it should be the administration's job to properly reform inmates, Parolees need a support system in place to lower the recitivism rate. Have education programs readily accessible. As for the jobs, it should be like community service. Mandatory work them period, no pay. Some places do just that.


okay for starters: not to pick a fight but you both could learn a few things, this is naive prison is not school. they don't try to be school or claim to be either.

that being said, this is what I think could be done about it

first of all something that could curb the excessive sentencing and unruly lobbyists is to simply pass a law that either

A) makes corporations who wish to outsource prisoners pay them the same thing they would pay any other laborer. if people have qualms with a prisoner receiving money then their pay could be donated to food banks or donated to the public school system. this way the people who are supposed to be paying their debt to society, are actually helping society and not some rich mans bank account. if the money is placed directly into schools that are in need then perhaps this would end up bringing better education to children in worse neighborhoods and the amount of crime in major cities would decrease. so in the end the prisoners would pay their debt to society by lowering the crime rate and bettering the futures of the generation after them.

b) do not allow private corporations to outsource workers from prisons. instead let them hire free citizens and have the prisoners work to better the community, help fix roads, clean up the streets, work for the city recycling plants etc. this way they can pay their debt by creating a cleaner better place for everyone to live. both of these would put more jobs into the hands of the public.

by taking advantage of their situation and forcing them to do professional labor for nothing, they are learning one thing. that it is okay to take advantage of people. and also that people are willing to take advantage of them.



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Posted 1/22/15


Facts not in evidence:

- Inmate work programs have a significant effect on the job market
- Number of inmates actually in such programs

False claims:

- Money earned through work programs does not make its way back into the economy

In fact, it does. Inmates can spend their money on personal goods and they can send it to people outside the prison.
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