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Post Reply Is prison a necessary thing
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Posted 1/22/15

dragontackle wrote:

To hell with Prisons, lets just skip that step and execute on spot:
-Drug Dealers
-Murderers(unless it was justified)
-Pedophiles
-Rapists
-Terrorists
-Serial Killers
i.e anyone that commited a violent crime



does drug dealers really belong on this list.
are people brainwashed these days? the fact that the police continue to try to fight the "war on drugs" is a huge part of the problem
why do you think that drugs are so regulated?
I don't think it has much to do with them caring if people get high considering the fact that the pharmaceutical industry provides legalized opiates and barbiturates and other drugs to 70 percent of the people in the us.

I don't think it has anything to do with trying to lessen violence, because if drugs were not illegal do you really think people would be getting killed over them. I think not.

and the ever raging battle over marijuana, every one knows it is safe enough that people should be able choose if they want to do it or not, but here is the catch.

if you can make it at home you do not have to buy it from them.

if drugs were not regulated then the knowledge about how to make them safely and correctly would become commonplace and people wouldn't need to pay out the ass for their prescriptions. then the gov would lose the one and only monopoly they are allowed.
it is about money, it is always about money the prison thing too. it all only got this bad because there was someone pulling the strings thinking about how they could come up on people and not how they could lead people.
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Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15

evilotakuneko wrote:



Facts not in evidence:

- Inmate work programs have a significant effect on the job market
- Number of inmates actually in such programs

False claims:

- Money earned through work programs does not make its way back into the economy

In fact, it does. Inmates can spend their money on personal goods and they can send it to people outside the prison.


what do you mean they can spend their money on the commissary? that is who supplies all of their personal goods. do you know who owns commissary. well in this state it is the sheriff.


Controversy has surrounded the privatization of prisons with the exposure of the genesis of the landmark Arizona SB 1070 law. This law was written by Arizona State Congressman Russell Pearce and the CCA at a meeting of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) in the Grand Hyatt in Washington, D.C.[123][124] Both CCA and GEO Group, the two largest operators of private facilities, have been contributors to ALEC, which lobbies for policies that would increase incarceration, such as three-strike laws and “truth-in-sentencing” legislation.[125][126][127][128][129

In addition to CCA and GEO Group, companies operating in the private prison business include Management and Training Corporation, and Community Education Centers. The GEO Group was formerly known as the Wackenhut Corrections division. It includes the former Correctional Services Corporation and Cornell Companies, which were purchased by GEO in 2005 and 2010. Such companies often sign contracts with states obliging them to fill prison beds or reimburse them for those that go unused.[130]

Private companies which provide services to prisons combine in the American Correctional Association, a 501(c)3 which advocates legislation favorable to the industry. Such private companies comprise what has been termed the prison–industrial complex.[131][132][113] An example of this phenomenon would be the Kids for cash scandal, in which two judges in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania, Mark Ciavarella and Michael Conahan, were receiving judicial kickbacks for sending youths, convicted of minor crimes,[133] to a privatized, for-profit juvenile facility run by the Mid Atlantic Youth Service Corporation.[127]]






About 18% of eligible prisoners held in federal prisons are employed by UNICOR and are paid less than $1.25 an hour.[134][135][136]





According to the American Civil Liberties Union in 2013, numerous studies indicate that private jails are actually filthier, more violent, less accountable, and possibly more costly than their public counterparts. The ACLU stated that the for-profit prison industry is "a major contributor to bloated state budgets and mass incarceration – not a part of any viable solution to these urgent problems."[115] The primary reason Louisiana is the prison capital of the world is because of the for-profit prison industry.[116] According to The Times-Picayune, "a majority of Louisiana inmates are housed in for-profit facilities, which must be supplied with a constant influx of human beings or a $182 million industry will go bankrupt

Sociologist John L. Campbell of Dartmouth College claims that private prisons in the U.S. have become "a lucrative business."[122] Between 1990 and 2000, the number of private facilities grew from five to 100, operated by nearly 20 private firms. Over the same time period the stock price of the industry leader, Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), climbed from $8 a share to $30.[122] The aforementioned Bloomberg report also notes that in the past decade the number of inmates in for-profit prisons throughout the U.S. rose 44 percent.[117]

115.^ Jump up to: a b Shapiro, David. "Banking on Bondage: Private Prisons and Mass Incarceration". American Civil Liberties Union. Retrieved 31 March 2013.
116.^ Jump up to: a b Chang, Cindy (29 May 2012). "Louisiana is the world's prison capital". The Times-Picayune. Retrieved 4 April 2013.
117.^ Jump up to: a b Margaret Newkirk & William Selway (12 July 2013). "Gangs Ruled Prison as For-Profit Model Put Blood on Floor." Bloomberg. Retrieved 16 July 2013.
118.Jump up ^ Jerry Mitchell (25 September 2014). East Mississippi prison called 'barbaric'. The Clarion-Ledger. Retrieved 1 December 2014. See also: A Tour of East Mississippi Correctional Facility. ACLU.
119.Jump up ^ Timothy Williams (6 November 2014). Christopher Epps, Former Chief of Prisons in Mississippi, Is Arraigned. The New York Times. Received 2 December 2014.
120.Jump up ^ Stroud, Matt (24 February 2014). The Private Prison Racket. Politico. Retrieved 25 February 2014.
121.Jump up ^ Kirkham, Chris (27 September 2012). Private Prisons: Immigration Convictions In Record Numbers Fueling Corporate Profits. The
cited sources to articles
125.Jump up ^ Elk, Mike and Sloan, Bob (2011). The Hidden History of ALEC and Prison Labor. The Nation.
126.Jump up ^ Prison Privatization and the Use of Incarceration. The Sentencing Project, September 2004.
127.^ Jump up to: a b Whitehead, John (April 10, 2012). "Jailing Americans for Profit: The Rise of the Prison Industrial Complex". The Rutherford Institute. Retrieved April 2, 2013.
128.Jump up ^ Pat Beall (November 22, 2013). Big business, legislators pushed for stiff sentences. The Palm Beach Post. Retrieved November 10, 2014.
129.Jump up ^ Greenblatt, Alan (October 2003). "What Makes Alec Smart?". Governing.
130.Jump up ^ Chris Kirkham (19 September 2013). Prison Quotas Push Lawmakers To Fill Beds, Derail Reform. The Huffington Post. Retrieved 20 September 2013.
131.Jump up ^ Eric Schlosser (December 1998). The Prison-Industrial Complex. The Atlantic. Retrieved 31 December 2013.
132.Jump up ^ Ray Downs (May 17 2013). Who's Getting Rich Off the Prison-Industrial Complex? Vice. Retrieved 31 December 2013.
133.Jump up ^ Prison Payback on YouTube. Russia Today on YouTube
134.Jump up ^ http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32380.pdf
135.Jump up ^ McCollum, William (1996). Federal Prison Industries, Inc: Hearing Before the Committee on the Judiciary, U.S. House of Representatives. DIANE Publishing. p. 7. ISBN 978-0-7567-0060-7.
136.Jump up ^ Nate C. Hindman (15 August 2012). Unicor Under Fire For Dominating Small Competitors With Cheap Prison Labor. The Huffington Post. Retrieved 9 May 2014.

Sogno- 
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Posted 1/22/15
no prison isn't necessary, let 'em roam free
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Posted 1/22/15
Excellent topic, it's nice to see some very interesting opinions/ideas here.

One recurring theme I am seeing though, is that a majority of the responses with ideas come incredibly close to recommending a police state when they are not recommending a fluffy, happy, fantasy-filled world. Prisons are a necessary evil that have been around for centuries in an attempt to control the uncontrollable.

Let's take a look at some of the countries out there with the lowest incarceration rates; you will have Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Nigeria, Congo, and our beloved Japan in that list. A large percentage of these particular countries contain strict policies and laws regarding criminality. In some Middle Eastern countries, simply being a female and disagreeing with a man will find you disfigured, shamed, and even executed. That is just for disagreeing with someone, imagine a violent crime (there was mention that 54% of inmates were incarcerated for violent crimes), where there is no re-socialization and reintroduction into public; it's an express lane to the gallows.

Some of you may think that sounds like a great idea, I mean, hey! Look! Criminals will now think twice about doing bad things!

That line of thinking is kind of a part of the reason that there are so many terrible and bloody conflicts happening in the Eastern Hemisphere. Oppression, military police states, rampant terrorism, think of all of the atrocities that are being committed in those countries ... then think of how we have it here in the States. Reduce inmate count, spend billions (which, by the way, you and I would be paying on top of our current taxes, yay for poverty!) on re-socialization efforts, invest trillions in a utopia filled with hugs and kisses (again, paid by us, the law-abiding citizens) and abolish evil deeds by using heavy-handed justice countered with warm pats on the backs and an understanding nature that "people make mistakes." That type of reasoning is dangerous in two ways; first, Police State. Second, no accountability.

I will not argue that the Prison system needs to see reform; that much is very true. There is no reason that three-square and excellent healthcare be given to inmates while those outside that are scraping to get along are suffering. I am not alone in this reasoning, which is why, you guessed it, inmates (who, upon committing a crime forfeit their Constitutional Rights, not sure if you were aware of that) have jobs. They may make a pittance compared to the tens of thousands of dollars a year that are spent on them (individual, not 'them' as a whole).

Inmates, after all, get decent healthcare, a generally proper diet, and a job. While inmates are generally the scum of the earth (or people in the wrong place at the wrong time), they are at least working to pay some of their debt whereas a large percentage of welfare recipients are not.

Prisons, as mentioned, are necessary evils; private prisons are stupid, though from an economic point of view, a private prison makes sense. We, as taxpayers, would not pay for those prisons to operate, meaning potentially less taxes but that does not excuse the deplorable environments that prisoners are kept in. Honestly, private prisons should simply go away, but the practice of having inmates work for a pittance should certainly stick around.

There has been a mention or two of the ACLU and honestly, I believe less and less of what they say or stick their hands into, largely due to the fact that my Rights as an American were hampered and after contacting the ACLU they decided to do nothing about it. I just happen to be a white male and they felt that, given "my position" there was no infringement upon my Rights (blatant racism, to me, happens to be something of an infringement upon my Rights, hmm?).

Still, really enjoy reading a lot of these responses but a part of me is a bit worried at the perceived 'sides' that this has taken; lovey-dovey utopia vs. military police state. Neither of which I will stand for. On the other hand, prisons/jails/correctional facilities absolutely must be improved upon, from resocialization and education to cost-benefit analysis and other economic/socio-economic impacts.

That, or you know, the parents of the people that are being incarcerated could go through and like, educate their children, teach them that respect, hard work, and a sense of a strong community can go a very long way.

After all, when family values were far more important in the 1950's, the US had an incarceration population that is an eighth of the size that it is now (you're welcome to look up stats at sites like bjs.gov). Yes, laws have changed and things have all that, but that was the 50's... a time where segregation and inequality were absolutely blatant (rather than how everything tends to be a bit more hush-hush these days, until a whistleblower steps up and lets the world know). Family values and parents that are involved in educating their children can go a very, very long way.

Still, super awesome conversation!
Posted 1/22/15
prison is necessary but should be reserved for harden criminals. too many go for petty crimes or for unnecessary lengths of time~


Sogno- wrote:

no prison isn't necessary, let 'em roam free


you're such an anarchist, do you let your chickens free roam too? do you have no sense of order!?
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Posted 1/22/15
I don't necessarily believe that having prisons is necessary at all for society to function. here is why, prisons should only be used for hardened criminals, this is true but, what kind of hardened criminals? in my opinion, only the ones who kill, rape, torture others. the people who have no regard for human rights whatsoever. now I do not think that imprisoning even these individuals is the correct course of action. perhaps we could set up an island where we ship psychopaths and then they could fiend for themselves and if they are able to learn hard work and dedication to a task then they will live if not oh well. and they can kill and rape each other all they want because they wont be interfering with everyone who wishes to live in a society where that isn't condoned. I now this will never happen but this is what utopia looks like to me.




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Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15

t1ckles wrote:


There has been a mention or two of the ACLU and honestly, I believe less and less of what they say or stick their hands into, largely due to the fact that my Rights as an American were hampered and after contacting the ACLU they decided to do nothing about it. I just happen to be a white male and they felt that, given "my position" there was no infringement upon my Rights (blatant racism, to me, happens to be something of an infringement upon my Rights, hmm?).!


they probably didn't help you because the aclu doesn't take on personal rights violations of single individuals they only go after cases that involve and will affect a large number of people. that's just how they choose to use the recourses they have available to them.i learned of this when i looked into them foe help and also wasn't able to get it through them.
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Posted 1/22/15

dragontackle wrote:

To hell with Prisons, lets just skip that step and execute on spot:
-Drug Dealers
-Murderers(unless it was justified)
-Pedophiles
-Rapists
-Terrorists
-Serial Killers
i.e anyone that commited a violent crime


I can't tell if you're being serious.
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Posted 1/22/15

-mockingbird wrote:

prison is necessary but should be reserved for harden criminals. too many go for petty crimes or for unnecessary lengths of time~


Sogno- wrote:

no prison isn't necessary, let 'em roam free


you're such an anarchist, do you let your chickens free roam too? do you have no sense of order!?


don't bring my chickens into this you statist
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Posted 1/22/15
You actually give a lot of valid reasons for why you believe what you believe. I can't not respect that. Pretty sad that something like a prison has turned into another opportunity for a quick buck. That being said, prison is a necessary thing. Would you rather they run around the streets continuing to cause havoc or be detained? The other alternative is to kill them and I don't believe that's necessary at all.
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Posted 1/22/15
Prisoners get paid?
Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15
As I and others have stated, prison is a necessary evil; it needs reform, not abolished. But before that changes in the common law need to be taking place. That's the bottom line. Noone is saying it will be an easy task to accomplish. There would have to be significant pressure placed on lawmakers to amend the laws concerning criminal code and prison reform, and cooperation from prison officials to adhere to and enforce new policies. Before legislation, there needs to be money, and that needs to be provided however means it can be done, be it fundraising or proper appropriation within reason of taxpayers' money..
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Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15

DarksirenxX wrote:

what do you mean they can spend their money on the commissary? that is who supplies all of their personal goods. do you know who owns commissary. well in this state it is the sheriff.


Thus, money spent by prisoners does go back into the economy.



About 18% of eligible prisoners held in federal prisons are employed by UNICOR and are paid less than $1.25 an hour.[134][135][136]


Hmm. This number is quite useless.

- "Eligible prisoners" -- unknown number
- held in federal prisons -- derived from a subset of inmates
- employed by UNICOR -- derived from a further subset of that subset
- and are paid less than $1.25 -- derived from yet another subset of the above subset.

Your assertion that prison work programs negatively affect the economy or unemployment in any meaningful way appears to be unfounded.

That doesn't mean there aren't problems with prison work programs, the prison system--and privately-run prisons in particular--or indeed the whole damned justice system, just that you've failed to prove the points you are trying to make.

Moreover the question "are prisons necessary?" as you admit yourself does not necessarily follow from the arguments you have made.

Prison is a necessity--again, as you admit--and yes I do agree we (Americans, that is) as a country send far too many people to jail. Your OP is just a terrible argument.

Personally I would start by decriminalizing victimless crimes such as marijuana possession and use, lowering the severity of some crimes (pissing on a dumpster should not land one in jail or on the sex offender list), eliminating any mandatory jail time and reducing sentencing guidelines for non-violent crimes.

Rather ironically considering your OP, I would also look into increasing prison work and work-release programs with the goal of reducing recidivism and helping former inmates re-integrate back into society safely.
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Posted 1/22/15
In some cases most of their pay goes to victim compensation, in others they do jobs that reduce the cost to house, feed, and clothe them. In most situations a paying job is a privilege and not compulsory.
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Posted 1/22/15

KillSeven wrote:

You actually give a lot of valid reasons for why you believe what you believe. I can't not respect that. Pretty sad that something like a prison has turned into another opportunity for a quick buck. That being said, prison is a necessary thing. Would you rather they run around the streets continuing to cause havoc or be detained? The other alternative is to kill them and I don't believe that's necessary at all.


is there really much of a difference? to live life in a small cell or be killed? they aren't much different if you ask me.
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