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Post Reply Is prison a necessary thing
Posted 1/22/15

DarksirenxX wrote:


KillSeven wrote:

You actually give a lot of valid reasons for why you believe what you believe. I can't not respect that. Pretty sad that something like a prison has turned into another opportunity for a quick buck. That being said, prison is a necessary thing. Would you rather they run around the streets continuing to cause havoc or be detained? The other alternative is to kill them and I don't believe that's necessary at all.


is there really much of a difference? to live life in a small cell or be killed? they aren't much different if you ask me.


Well, for starters, prison is temporary whereas execution is permanent. I am not talking about lifers, but people that can be reformed. Like I said, its important to define what is an incarcerable crime before addressing what to do with convicts.
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Posted 1/22/15
What are we? Mayans? They only new a single punish for braking the law. Romans, Slavery. Yet a rehabilitation center shall be new prisons.
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Posted 1/22/15

DarksirenxX wrote:


KillSeven wrote:

You actually give a lot of valid reasons for why you believe what you believe. I can't not respect that. Pretty sad that something like a prison has turned into another opportunity for a quick buck. That being said, prison is a necessary thing. Would you rather they run around the streets continuing to cause havoc or be detained? The other alternative is to kill them and I don't believe that's necessary at all.


is there really much of a difference? to live life in a small cell or be killed? they aren't much different if you ask me.


In one hand you have hope, and the chance to improve yourself and atone for your crimes (i.e. prison). In the other hand, you have a dead end, no way forward; when you die there are no chances to redeem yourself. While it has been established that the prison system needs to be reformed, so too do the general populace. Change needs to start from within, and within the prison system are inmates. Maybe if those inmate held some values, respect, and were a little less "me, me, me" then maybe they wouldn't be there?
Posted 1/22/15

t1ckles wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:


KillSeven wrote:

You actually give a lot of valid reasons for why you believe what you believe. I can't not respect that. Pretty sad that something like a prison has turned into another opportunity for a quick buck. That being said, prison is a necessary thing. Would you rather they run around the streets continuing to cause havoc or be detained? The other alternative is to kill them and I don't believe that's necessary at all.


is there really much of a difference? to live life in a small cell or be killed? they aren't much different if you ask me.


In one hand you have hope, and the chance to improve yourself and atone for your crimes (i.e. prison). In the other hand, you have a dead end, no way forward; when you die there are no chances to redeem yourself. While it has been established that the prison system needs to be reformed, so too do the general populace. Change needs to start from within, and within the prison system are inmates. Maybe if those inmate held some values, respect, and were a little less "me, me, me" then maybe they wouldn't be there?


This is true. If they were not out committing crimes in the first place we wouldn't need prisons. Sadly, people sometimes make bad choices in life, and society must deal with criminals to preserve order. The tricky part is how to do so, the length and severity of the punishmant for said offense(s), and having support in and out of prisons to rehabilitate offenders rather than put them in a body storage. Some crimes should not be punishable with lengthy prison terms, nor should inmates be paid for work as part of paying back their debts to society. The thread topic should have been "Are prison wages harming the economy", not "Are prisons necessary". Its silly to suggest we can execute anyone who breaks any law. On a related topic, I don't support the death penalty. Murder is murder. Vengeance is mine sayeth the lord and all that jazz.~
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Posted 1/22/15
Where is it that you get your hand cut off for stealing if you steal again the other and a third time you die? Saw it on dateline or something...

The guy left his wallet on a street all day and if i remember correctly not a single person picked it up...
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Posted 1/22/15

symphonicecho wrote:

This is true. If they were not out committing crimes in the first place we wouldn't need prisons. Sadly, people sometimes make bad choices in life, and society must deal with criminals to preserve order. The tricky part is how to do so, the length and severity of the punishmant for said offense(s), and having support in and out of prisons to rehabilitate offenders rather than put them in a body storage. Some crimes should not be punishable with lengthy prison terms, nor should inmates be paid for work as part of paying back their debts to society. The thread topic should have been "Are prison wages harming the economy", not "Are prisons necessary". Its silly to suggest we can execute anyone who breaks any law. On a related topic, I don't support the death penalty. Murder is murder. Vengeance is mine sayeth the lord and all that jazz.~


Completely agree; prison reform, how we use them, who goes to them, for how long, etc. is something that needs be addressed. Regarding the OP being more along the lines of "Are prison wages harming the economy" I too think that would be a better topic. As to whether they are harming the economy, I do not think so. At least, not at the wages being made currently. Privatization of prisons is a bad thing, I think we all agree on that. I am personally partial to the idea that inmates should work, in some fashion, to sustain their incarceration (pending the crime). I also wouldn't be opposed to seeing restitution going not only to the victims, but to the Department of Corrections, regardless of whether the criminal did time or not. Mandatory garnishment of a set value could help lessen the burden, I would think.

So much to think about, but where to start, hmm?
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Posted 1/22/15

just to be clear, i wasn't saying i was against prisoners working. i was against them being leased through the prison industrial complex. federally run prisons are not actually guilty in this respect only the privately run ones


Human rights organizations, as well as political and social ones, are condemning what they are calling a new form of inhumane exploitation in the United States, where they say a prison population of up to 2 million – mostly Black and Hispanic – are working for various industries for a pittance. For the tycoons who have invested in the prison industry, it has been like finding a pot of gold. They don’t have to worry about strikes or paying unemployment insurance, vacations or comp time. All of their workers are full-time, and never arrive late or are absent because of family problems; moreover, if they don’t like the pay of 25 cents an hour and refuse to work, they are locked up in isolation cells


“The private contracting of prisoners for work fosters incentives to lock people up. Prisons depend on this income. Corporate stockholders who make money off prisoners’ work lobby for longer sentences, in order to expand their workforce


in privately-run prisons, they receive as little as 17 cents per hour for a maximum of six hours a day, the equivalent of $20 per month. The highest-paying private prison is CCA in Tennessee, where prisoners receive 50 cents per hour for what they call “highly skilled positions.” ]


are you saying that 20.00 p/m that prisoners are making as opposed to the 800.00 p/m that a free skilled laborer would be making going back into the economy has no effect on it. my point wasn't that they don't have the option to send their money elsewhere but that they are not making shit to spend in comparison to the person who should have that job but is stuck unemployed on his couch.in turn the money that is saved by the corporations is going to the hands of a select few persons who are already rich. how can you not see this?


Shapiro, a staff attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union National Prison Project, is the author of a new ACLU report that's critical of the private prison industry.

Shapiro says it's possible a town could reap some small economic benefits from a private prison, but it may not bring the larger economic boost the county is hoping for.

"That's what the empirical evidence has shown ... and there are various theories for why that may be the case," Shapiro tells weekends on All Things Considered guest host Laura Sullivan.

The presence of a prison might actually squeeze out other businesses that could bring greater benefits than the prison itself, he says. Also, many of the jobs created by a private prison don't actually go to people in the community.

The bigger problem, he says, is that state and federal taxpayers — who in the end are paying for these prisons — aren't getting the most value for their money.

To cite just one example, he says, last year the Arizona auditor general found that it actually might be more expensive to hold Arizona prisoners in private, for-profit facilities than in public ones.


oh and

Today, nearly ten percent of US prisons and jails (meaning 200,000 prisoners) have been privatized, the three largest firms being CCA, WACKENHUT CORRECTIONS CORPORATION and CORNELL CORRECTIONS, INC. The federal government also contracts with them to house a growing number of undocumented immigrants and resident aliens, while some of the companies have facilities in countries outside the USA.
source= correctionsproject.com documentary
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Posted 1/22/15

symphonicecho wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:


KillSeven wrote:

You actually give a lot of valid reasons for why you believe what you believe. I can't not respect that. Pretty sad that something like a prison has turned into another opportunity for a quick buck. That being said, prison is a necessary thing. Would you rather they run around the streets continuing to cause havoc or be detained? The other alternative is to kill them and I don't believe that's necessary at all.


is there really much of a difference? to live life in a small cell or be killed? they aren't much different if you ask me.


Well, for starters, prison is temporary whereas execution is permanent. I am not talking about lifers, but people that can be reformed. Like I said, its important to define what is an incarcerable crime before addressing what to do with convicts.


I wasn't arguing that fact or anything this quote was specifically referencing "lifers" that's all

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Posted 1/22/15

Allonan wrote:

Where is it that you get your hand cut off for stealing if you steal again the other and a third time you die? Saw it on dateline or something...

The guy left his wallet on a street all day and if i remember correctly not a single person picked it up...


yes this is how it should be if you got your hand cut off I don't think you'd want to steal again and if you were stupid enough to do it twice after that you couldn't even steal if you tried cause you'd have no hands. very good way to eventually rid the place of thieves. btw was it hands or fingers I recall something similar but I thought it was fingers I could be wrong though.
Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15

DarksirenxX wrote:


symphonicecho wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:


KillSeven wrote:

You actually give a lot of valid reasons for why you believe what you believe. I can't not respect that. Pretty sad that something like a prison has turned into another opportunity for a quick buck. That being said, prison is a necessary thing. Would you rather they run around the streets continuing to cause havoc or be detained? The other alternative is to kill them and I don't believe that's necessary at all.


is there really much of a difference? to live life in a small cell or be killed? they aren't much different if you ask me.


Well, for starters, prison is temporary whereas execution is permanent. I am not talking about lifers, but people that can be reformed. Like I said, its important to define what is an incarcerable crime before addressing what to do with convicts.


I wasn't arguing that fact or anything this quote was specifically referencing "lifers" that's all



It's not our place to murder. If a box isn't humane, neither is killing people. In wartime, in the context of combat, defense of one's country from a foreign power, and self-defense against an imminent danger or threat, fine. Otherwise, it is not our place to take a life. In the case of lifers, let them rot. God will judge them where man does not. Maybe you don't believe what I believe but I do, and if you cannot do the time, don't do the crime. Can't stray too far off topic, I don't wish to discuss death penalty, philosophy or religion in this thread, and you prob don't want to either. But killing is killing, and a lifer doing life (if he even isn't paroled and does his full sentence(chances are likely he won't have to unless parole was denied @ sentencing) is just. He will never breathe free air again or have a chance to harm innocents. Since I'm anti DP the cost of housing, room and board would be a necessary evil according to my beliefs, and unf. justified (but we can control how much we spend there).
Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15

DarksirenxX wrote:


Allonan wrote:

Where is it that you get your hand cut off for stealing if you steal again the other and a third time you die? Saw it on dateline or something...

The guy left his wallet on a street all day and if i remember correctly not a single person picked it up...


yes this is how it should be if you got your hand cut off I don't think you'd want to steal again and if you were stupid enough to do it twice after that you couldn't even steal if you tried cause you'd have no hands. very good way to eventually rid the place of thieves. btw was it hands or fingers I recall something similar but I thought it was fingers I could be wrong though.


Perhaps we could bring back summary executions from Nazi Germany. Line everyone up and one at a time put a bullet in their heads. The next step would be a "Judge Dredd" arbitrary all-in-one style to justice.

Actually in that time, an officer could kill you in front of everyone for looking at him funny and nothing more was made of it.
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Posted 1/22/15

symphonicecho wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:


Allonan wrote:

Where is it that you get your hand cut off for stealing if you steal again the other and a third time you die? Saw it on dateline or something...

The guy left his wallet on a street all day and if i remember correctly not a single person picked it up...


yes this is how it should be if you got your hand cut off I don't think you'd want to steal again and if you were stupid enough to do it twice after that you couldn't even steal if you tried cause you'd have no hands. very good way to eventually rid the place of thieves. btw was it hands or fingers I recall something similar but I thought it was fingers I could be wrong though.


Perhaps we could bring back summary executions from Nazi Germany. Line everyone up and one at a time put a bullet in their heads. The next step would be a "Judge Dredd" arbitrary all-in-one style to justice.



what do you think they keep their hands clean by placing them in a cell for their whole life and letting them rot. nay they do not I only said it was the same as killing them not that they should kill them. like I said they should send them to an outlying island where they could live free on their own away from all other people. and their punishment is that they have to fight everyday to survive. but it is their choice to live or die thus taking the responsibility off of the heads of innocent bystanders. Or maybe if the families of victims should just be allowed to have some revenge. [jk this would be wrong too I know.]
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Posted 1/22/15

DarksirenxX wrote:


symphonicecho wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:


Allonan wrote:

Where is it that you get your hand cut off for stealing if you steal again the other and a third time you die? Saw it on dateline or something...

The guy left his wallet on a street all day and if i remember correctly not a single person picked it up...


yes this is how it should be if you got your hand cut off I don't think you'd want to steal again and if you were stupid enough to do it twice after that you couldn't even steal if you tried cause you'd have no hands. very good way to eventually rid the place of thieves. btw was it hands or fingers I recall something similar but I thought it was fingers I could be wrong though.


Perhaps we could bring back summary executions from Nazi Germany. Line everyone up and one at a time put a bullet in their heads. The next step would be a "Judge Dredd" arbitrary all-in-one style to justice.



what do you think they keep their hands clean by placing them in a cell for their whole life and letting them rot. nay they do not I only said it was the same as killing them not that they should kill them. like I said they should send them to an outlying island where they could live free on their own away from all other people. and their punishment is that they have to fight everyday to survive. but it is their choice to live or die thus taking the responsibility off of the heads of innocent bystanders. Or maybe if the families of victims should just be allowed to have some revenge. [jk this would be wrong too I know.]


now now a bullet to the head is alot different then cutting off your hands and if you complain about your hands then they coud cut out your tounge and you couldnt do anything accept watch without any hands <please know im totally joking about this>

any way that was a nice tangent we just went on huh? shall we stray back to the topic?
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Posted 1/22/15
I guess my small post wasn't answered, but I'll ask again......do prisoners get paid? If so, that doesn't sound right. For about a year I was thinking that prisoners should be put to manual labor, but then again that's just because I sometimes find prisoners' rights to be a frustrating concept. After all, the rights of criminals always seem to be given more respect than the privacy of their victims.

Until I learned about Norway's prison system (or whichever Nordic country), I thought that American prisoners were actually well-off. I mean, we're all familiar with the stories about what goes on between inmates and some revelations about prison communities, but they have access to various services even when confined. One time years back I saw a video about Chyorny Delʹfin, or "Black Dolphin", which is one of Russia's federal prisons, one reserved for those facing life-imprisonment, particularly for pedophiles, terrorists, serial-killers, whatever similar. The guards escort inmates by blindfolding them and positioning them with their waist down (bent forward) while cuffed behind, and when in a cell they're subject to 24/7 surveillance, deprived of any possible contraband. I was thinking "Wow; our prison systems should be like this," except we'll never do something like that.

I still need to study up on Nordic prison systems, though. This is sure to bring a question regarding how prisons should be. Should they be for rehabilitation, or should they be for punishment? Perhaps I may hold a bias as well. Does everybody deserve a chance at redemption? Also need to take into account the complexities of law, which could lead to a person being unfairly imprisoned or unfairly released, things like that....
Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15
^ I saw that documentary on Black Dolphin. Can't say I envy those convicts.^.^
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