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Post Reply Is prison a necessary thing
Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/23/15

DarksirenxX wrote:

now now a bullet to the head is alot different then cutting off your hands and if you complain about your hands then they coud cut out your tounge and you couldnt do anything accept watch without any hands <please know im totally joking about this>

any way that was a nice tangent we just went on huh? shall we stray back to the topic?


If you are going to disfigure someone, you might as well finish the job. If a young female newlywed gets caught shoplifting chewing gum, cut off her hand. Hubby might have grief over that one.
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Posted 1/22/15

evilotakuneko wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:

what do you mean they can spend their money on the commissary? that is who supplies all of their personal goods. do you know who owns commissary. well in this state it is the sheriff.


Thus, money spent by prisoners does go back into the economy.
of the 2 million people incarcirated in the US 200,000 of them are in for profit prisons


About 18% of eligible prisoners held in federal prisons are employed by UNICOR and are paid less than $1.25 an hour.[134][135][136]


Hmm. This number is quite useless.

- "Eligible prisoners" -- unknown number
- held in federal prisons -- derived from a subset of inmates
- employed by UNICOR -- derived from a further subset of that subset
- and are paid less than $1.25 -- derived from yet another subset of the above subset.

Your assertion that prison work programs negatively affect the economy or unemployment in any meaningful way appears to be unfounded.

That doesn't mean there aren't problems with prison work programs, the prison system--and privately-run prisons in particular--or indeed the whole damned justice system, just that you've failed to prove the points you are trying to make.

Moreover the question "are prisons necessary?" as you admit yourself does not necessarily follow from the arguments you have made.

Prison is a necessity--again, as you admit--and yes I do agree we (Americans, that is) as a country send far too many people to jail. Your OP is just a terrible argument.

Personally I would start by decriminalizing victimless crimes such as marijuana possession and use, lowering the severity of some crimes (pissing on a dumpster should not land one in jail or on the sex offender list), eliminating any mandatory jail time and reducing sentencing guidelines for non-violent crimes.

Rather ironically considering your OP, I would also look into increasing prison work and work-release programs with the goal of reducing recidivism and helping former inmates re-integrate back into society safely.




prisoners in FPP's [for profit prisons] at the very best paying one make 20$ per month working a skilled labor job outsourced through a corporation on American soil. instead of hiring American citizens for the same exact job for 850$ to 1300$ dollars monthly they are being allowed to hire a prisoner for 20.00 if you look at the discrepancy there when you multiply that number by 200,000 in the lowest range somewhere around
160,000,000
and this is per month so multiply that by
12
you get
1,920,000,000 dollars per year
at the lowest possible income taken from the people
and the highest salary actually paid to prisoners giving the best benefit of the doubt to the prison industry

however, in reality there is only on single prison that even pays this well most will pay inmates 10-15$ per month for 6 hours a day 30 days a month of skilled labor and realistically most skilled labor jobs are going to pay closer to 1,200 per month
so we crunch the numbers once more with the benefit of the doubt focused more towards realityannddd....
1200-15=1185
1185x200,000=237,000,000$ per month-
237,000,000 x 12= 2,844,000,000

so are you still suggesting that two billion, eight hundred and forty four million dollars per year, that should have been payed by corporations to skilled American laborers, being pocketed and saved by major corporations by outsourcing jobs through prisons on American soil, does not affect the working class economy? you think that the 20 dollars a month spent by inmates makes up for that? it doesn't even come close.
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Posted 1/22/15
I think prison is definitely necessary. I'm too lazy to go and try and make a research paper out of my opinion, though. I just think we put too many people in there, and then we end up spending way too much money on people who aren't that dangerous. Definitely murderers need to be in jail, but they should really think about whether all those other people need to be in jail for such a long time.
Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15

DarksirenxX wrote:


evilotakuneko wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:

what do you mean they can spend their money on the commissary? that is who supplies all of their personal goods. do you know who owns commissary. well in this state it is the sheriff.


Thus, money spent by prisoners does go back into the economy.
of the 2 million people incarcirated in the US 200,000 of them are in for profit prisons


About 18% of eligible prisoners held in federal prisons are employed by UNICOR and are paid less than $1.25 an hour.[134][135][136]


Hmm. This number is quite useless.

- "Eligible prisoners" -- unknown number
- held in federal prisons -- derived from a subset of inmates
- employed by UNICOR -- derived from a further subset of that subset
- and are paid less than $1.25 -- derived from yet another subset of the above subset.

Your assertion that prison work programs negatively affect the economy or unemployment in any meaningful way appears to be unfounded.

That doesn't mean there aren't problems with prison work programs, the prison system--and privately-run prisons in particular--or indeed the whole damned justice system, just that you've failed to prove the points you are trying to make.

Moreover the question "are prisons necessary?" as you admit yourself does not necessarily follow from the arguments you have made.

Prison is a necessity--again, as you admit--and yes I do agree we (Americans, that is) as a country send far too many people to jail. Your OP is just a terrible argument.

Personally I would start by decriminalizing victimless crimes such as marijuana possession and use, lowering the severity of some crimes (pissing on a dumpster should not land one in jail or on the sex offender list), eliminating any mandatory jail time and reducing sentencing guidelines for non-violent crimes.

Rather ironically considering your OP, I would also look into increasing prison work and work-release programs with the goal of reducing recidivism and helping former inmates re-integrate back into society safely.




prisoners in FPP's [for profit prisons] at the very best paying one make 20$ per month working a skilled labor job outsourced through a corporation on American soil. instead of hiring American citizens for the same exact job for 850$ to 1300$ dollars monthly they are being allowed to hire a prisoner for 20.00 if you look at the discrepancy there when you multiply that number by 200,000 in the lowest range somewhere around
160,000,000
and this is per month so multiply that by
12
you get
1,920,000,000 dollars per year
at the lowest possible income taken from the people
and the highest salary actually paid to prisoners giving the best benefit of the doubt to the prison industry

however, in reality there is only on single prison that even pays this well most will pay inmates 10-15$ per month for 6 hours a day 30 days a month of skilled labor and realistically most skilled labor jobs are going to pay closer to 1,200 per month
so we crunch the numbers once more with the benefit of the doubt focused more towards realityannddd....
1200-15=1185
1185x200,000=237,000,000$ per month-
237,000,000 x 12= 2,844,000,000

so are you still suggesting that two billion, eight hundred and forty four million dollars per year, that should have been payed by corporations to skilled American laborers, being pocketed and saved by major corporations by outsourcing jobs through prisons on American soil, does not affect the working class economy? you think that the 20 dollars a month spent by inmates makes up for that? it doesn't even come close.

your arguments are really invalid because you mislabeled your own topic. We need prisons, number crunching wont change it. Nothing is perfect and until you can come up with something better aside from hacking off kleptomaniacal newlywed hands instead of griping about the money and where it goes. If the topic says Are Prisons necessary and not if they re economical then follow your own topic please because you aren't. Sometimes prison does work, sometimes it doesn't, thats life, just stop complaining and do something about it constructive and dont take us back to hammurabi's code in babylon
Posted 1/22/15
The real question should be "what should and should not be a crime worthy of prison?"
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Posted 1/22/15
Prison is a necessary thing but to a certain degree. It's usually an adult "time-out" and can help inmates realize their wrongdoing.
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Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/23/15

symphonicecho wrote:

your arguments are really invalid because you mislabeled your own topic. We need prisons, number crunching wont change it. Nothing is perfect and untoil you can come up with something better aside from hacking off kleptomaniacal newlywed hands instead of griping about the money and where it goes. If the topic says Are Prisons necessary and not if they re economical then follow your own toic please.


wow your ignorance is quite the astonishing spectacle..... Because I accidentally mislabeled my topic which I fixed in the op? [and that was sarcasm by the way; about the hand cutting off thing]
lol I thought that was obvious but apparently that went over your head further than you could see.
my bad. I thought I did this already but I will spell it out I WAS JOKING!!!! did you catch that?
why don't you provide an argument for you side of the debate? you don't have to get mad at me because I have a differing opinion.

you do understand the concept of having a debate right?
(both sides offer arguments they feel support their personal opinion of a matter they discuss maybe someone else brings even another opinion to the table that's totally outlandish and we discuss their arguments.......)
ringing a bell yet?

oh and btw not even in the op or post label did i ever say "you must have a good solution to this problem" i don't even think i mention the solution part at the start of this thread. i offered my own solutions in a later post (which im really hoping you accidentally skipped over and didn't read before deciding to recant how you did.

and no number crunching doesn't change anything per say, but it does equip people with a little bit better idea just how bad they are getting fed in the a if you know what i mean.
Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/23/15

symphonicecho wrote:

your arguments are really invalid because you mislabeled your own topic. We need prisons, number crunching wont change it. Nothing is perfect and until you can come up with something better aside from hacking off kleptomaniacal newlywed hands instead of griping about the money and where it goes. If the topic says Are Prisons necessary and not if they re economical then follow your own topic please because you aren't. Sometimes prison does work, sometimes it doesn't, thats life, just stop complaining and do something about it constructive and dont take us back to hammurabi's code in babylon


check above post for edits. Instead of insulting people that might disagree with you you can learn how to better accept criticism. I'm not going back and forth with you. A pointless discussion is no better than one poorly conducted. Next time try to label topics correctly. A mod may fix that for you. I have a life so your taunts don't bother me. Later.
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Posted 1/22/15

DarksirenxX wrote:

prisoners in FPP's [for profit prisons] at the very best paying one make 20$ per month working a skilled labor job outsourced through a corporation on American soil. instead of hiring American citizens for the same exact job for 850$ to 1300$ dollars monthly they are being allowed to hire a prisoner for 20.00 if you look at the discrepancy there when you multiply that number by 200,000 in the lowest range somewhere around
160,000,000
and this is per month so multiply that by
12
you get
1,920,000,000 dollars per year
at the lowest possible income taken from the people
and the highest salary actually paid to prisoners giving the best benefit of the doubt to the prison industry

however, in reality there is only on single prison that even pays this well most will pay inmates 10-15$ per month for 6 hours a day 30 days a month of skilled labor and realistically most skilled labor jobs are going to pay closer to 1,200 per month
so we crunch the numbers once more with the benefit of the doubt focused more towards realityannddd....
1200-15=1185
1185x200,000=237,000,000$ per month-
237,000,000 x 12= 2,844,000,000

so are you still suggesting that two billion, eight hundred and forty four million dollars per year, that should have been payed by corporations to skilled American laborers, being pocketed and saved by major corporations by outsourcing jobs through prisons on American soil, does not affect the working class economy? you think that the 20 dollars a month spent by inmates makes up for that? it doesn't even come close.


I think I understand what you're saying, and it has a good message. Where there is a flaw is that you are generalizing that "skilled labor" would make at least $850 - $1300. It may not; flipping burgers at a mom-and-pop shop, where, thanks to certain healthcare policies, "full time" employment is hard to come by. On the other hand, I, as a "skilled laborer" make well more than $1300 per paycheck. I would be far more interested in seeing fluctuations for inflation, local, state, and federal policies regarding labor laws, then also take into account the type of work that inmates do (I know around me the most prevalent job for inmates is highway / roadway cleanup ... something that doesn't even pay in this state normally) and then cross it against comparable jobs in similar 'markets' with similarly educated employees (mind you, not all inmates are incarcerated). I wholeheartedly agree that it all needs reform, the whole system really, but generalizing is a relatively difficult thing to back up.

This is an extremely interesting topic, so I'm glad it was asked ...

Not to provide a solution to something you did not necessarily ask for, but CBSNews.com did an article in 2012 where it states that annual spending on incarceration is ~$63.4 billion dollars. That is massive, even compared to your impressive math (seriously, I hate math). I think that, if we were to generalize, then if we could address the issue of the number of incarcerations then the ~$2.8 billion that you reference would be far less of an impact, as we would have more individuals in the working force, helping to drive the free market forward.

Still, your numbers make sense and I can see where it is that you were going with your thought process, so thank you for laying that out.
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Posted 1/22/15
and because everyone seems quite horrified at the abolishment of the prison system, id like to hope that the American people, upon abolishment of the prison system, would be smart enough to already have a separate plan in place for all of the dangerous criminals. it isn't like because we chose to put an end to an extremely corrupted system that we couldn't move forward in the most appropriate logical manner. of course those who would endanger us should never be let free to roam about the communities. this should be common sense guys.

and i would also like to reiterate the numbers

2,844,000,000.00$ per year
is going to the ceo,s of major corporations,
instead of being paid into the hands of skilled laborers,
see the above post for the exact math

corporations found an awesome way to outsource jobs right here on American soil. that is one argument.

please don't think that because my argument deals with the American economy that all arguments are limited to the subject of economy. any subject matter is fine
Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15

DarksirenxX wrote:

and because everyone seems quite horrified at the abolishment of the prison system, id like to hope that the American people, upon abolishment of the prison system, would be smart enough to already have a separate plan in place for all of the dangerous criminals. it isn't like because we chose to put an end to an extremely corrupted system that we couldn't move forward in the most appropriate logical manner. of course those who would endanger us should never be let free to roam about the communities. this should be common sense guys.

and i would also like to reiterate the numbers

2,844,000,000.00$ per year
is going to the ceo,s of major corporations,
instead of being paid into the hands of skilled laborers,
see the above post for the exact math

corporations found an awesome way to outsource jobs right here on American soil. that is one argument.

please don't think that because my argument deals with the American economy that all arguments are limited to the subject of economy. any subject matter is fine


Where are your sources?
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Posted 1/22/15


I think I understand what you're saying, and it has a good message. Where there is a flaw is that you are generalizing that "skilled labor" would make at least $850 - $1300. It may not; flipping burgers at a mom-and-pop shop, where, thanks to certain healthcare policies, "full time" employment is hard to come by. On the other hand, I, as a "skilled laborer" make well more than $1300 per paycheck. I would be far more interested in seeing fluctuations for inflation, local, state, and federal policies regarding labor laws, then also take into account the type of work that inmates do (I know around me the most prevalent job for inmates is highway / roadway cleanup ... something that doesn't even pay in this state normally) and then cross it against comparable jobs in similar 'markets' with similarly educated employees (mind you, not all inmates are incarcerated). I wholeheartedly agree that it all needs reform, the whole system really, but generalizing is a relatively difficult thing to back up.

Some of the largest and most powerful corporations have a stake in the expansion of the prison labor market, including but not limited to IBM, Boeing, Motorola, Microsoft, AT&T, Wireless, Texas Instrument, Dell, Compaq, Honeywell, Hewlett-Packard, Nortel, Lucent Technologies, 3Com, Intel, Northern Telecom, TWA, Nordstrom's, Revlon, Macy's, Pierre Cardin, Target Stores, and many more. Between 1980 and 1994 alone, profits went up from $392 million to $1.31 billion. Since the prison labor force has likely grown since then, it is safe to assume that the profits accrued from the use of prison labor have reached even higher levels. article By Rania Khalek / AlterNet.org

This is an extremely interesting topic, so I'm glad it was asked ...

Not to provide a solution to something you did not necessarily ask for, but CBSNews.com did an article in 2012 where it states that annual spending on incarceration is ~$63.4 billion dollars. That is massive, even compared to your impressive math (seriously, I hate math). I think that, if we were to generalize, then if we could address the issue of the number of incarcerations then the ~$2.8 billion that you reference would be far less of an impact, as we would have more individuals in the working force, helping to drive the free market forward.

Still, your numbers make sense and I can see where it is that you were going with your thought process, so thank you for laying that out.


Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15

DarksirenxX wrote:



I think I understand what you're saying, and it has a good message. Where there is a flaw is that you are generalizing that "skilled labor" would make at least $850 - $1300. It may not; flipping burgers at a mom-and-pop shop, where, thanks to certain healthcare policies, "full time" employment is hard to come by. On the other hand, I, as a "skilled laborer" make well more than $1300 per paycheck. I would be far more interested in seeing fluctuations for inflation, local, state, and federal policies regarding labor laws, then also take into account the type of work that inmates do (I know around me the most prevalent job for inmates is highway / roadway cleanup ... something that doesn't even pay in this state normally) and then cross it against comparable jobs in similar 'markets' with similarly educated employees (mind you, not all inmates are incarcerated). I wholeheartedly agree that it all needs reform, the whole system really, but generalizing is a relatively difficult thing to back up.

Some of the largest and most powerful corporations have a stake in the expansion of the prison labor market, including but not limited to IBM, Boeing, Motorola, Microsoft, AT&T, Wireless, Texas Instrument, Dell, Compaq, Honeywell, Hewlett-Packard, Nortel, Lucent Technologies, 3Com, Intel, Northern Telecom, TWA, Nordstrom's, Revlon, Macy's, Pierre Cardin, Target Stores, and many more. Between 1980 and 1994 alone, profits went up from $392 million to $1.31 billion. Since the prison labor force has likely grown since then, it is safe to assume that the profits accrued from the use of prison labor have reached even higher levels. article By Rania Khalek / AlterNet.org

This is an extremely interesting topic, so I'm glad it was asked ...

Not to provide a solution to something you did not necessarily ask for, but CBSNews.com did an article in 2012 where it states that annual spending on incarceration is ~$63.4 billion dollars. That is massive, even compared to your impressive math (seriously, I hate math). I think that, if we were to generalize, then if we could address the issue of the number of incarcerations then the ~$2.8 billion that you reference would be far less of an impact, as we would have more individuals in the working force, helping to drive the free market forward.

Still, your numbers make sense and I can see where it is that you were going with your thought process, so thank you for laying that out.




You don't have them, do you.
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Posted 1/22/15
like i said i listed them in previous post.

]http://www.correctionsproject.com/corrections/p
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rateris
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_complex_priv.htm
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289

if you don't want to look in there for them here are some urls
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Posted 1/22/15

DarksirenxX wrote:
prisoners in FPP's [for profit prisons]

Which we have established is a minority of prisoners.



at the very best paying one make 20$ per month working a skilled labor job outsourced through a corporation on American soil. instead of hiring American citizens for the same exact job for 850$ to 1300$ dollars monthly they are being allowed to hire a prisoner for 20.00 if you look at the discrepancy there when you multiply that number by 200,000 in the lowest range somewhere around
160,000,000
and this is per month so multiply that by
12
you get
1,920,000,000 dollars per year
at the lowest possible income taken from the people
and the highest salary actually paid to prisoners giving the best benefit of the doubt to the prison industry
however, in reality there is only on single prison that even pays this well most will pay inmates 10-15$ per month for 6 hours a day 30 days a month of skilled labor and realistically most skilled labor jobs are going to pay closer to 1,200 per month
so we crunch the numbers once more with the benefit of the doubt focused more towards realityannddd....
1200-15=1185
1185x200,000=237,000,000$ per month-
237,000,000 x 12= 2,844,000,000

so are you still suggesting that two billion, eight hundred and forty four million dollars per year, that should have been payed by corporations to skilled American laborers, being pocketed and saved by major corporations by outsourcing jobs through prisons on American soil, does not affect the working class economy? you think that the 20 dollars a month spent by inmates makes up for that? it doesn't even come close.


1. UN-skilled labor. We're not talking about engineers, craftsman, accountants, and auto mechanics here. We're talking monkey work that any Joe with a strong back could do.
2. Would any of these jobs would have been filled by free citizens in the first place? For example do you know why illegal immigrants pick your produce, dig your ditches, and cook your food? In part, it's because there's a shortage of legal workers to do the dirty jobs. Our economy would suffer more from not having such disadvantaged people around.
3. That'd be roughly ~200,000 minimum wage jobs. Jobs that in all likelihood would be taken up by illegals because no one else wants them.
4. Corporations don't just sit around and swim in their piles of cash. Neither the jobs nor the money involved are a zero-sum game.

And again -- we're talking about a small minority of prisoners here. Three billion dollars is a drop in the bucket in an economy worth trillions. A couple hundred thousand unskilled, undesirable, low-paying, entry-level jobs aren't even going to make a dent in the unemployment rates.




2,844,000,000.00$ per year
is going to the ceo,s of major corporations,
instead of being paid into the hands of skilled laborers,
see the above post for the exact math


Contrary to popular belief, there's not a one-to-one correlation between a corporation's profit and the size of the CEO's paycheck.



corporations found an awesome way to outsource jobs right here on American soil. that is one argument.


Naturally because outsourcing does not necessarily mean offshoring. ;)



please don't think that because my argument deals with the American economy that all arguments are limited to the subject of economy. any subject matter is fine


All of your arguments thus far have dealt with either the economy or poor conditions in for-profit prisons. Neither support your now-abandoned thesis of universal prison abolishment very well. :p

So eh, what IS the point we're discussing now anyway? I don't think there's much disagreement that for-profit prisons suck and should be better regulated and/or abolished.
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