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Post Reply Is prison a necessary thing
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29 / M / Bullhead City, AZ
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Posted 1/22/15
Yes prison is a requirement. Do you want a convicted pedophile living next door to you and your future children knowing he's not going to prison?
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28 / M / Seattle
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Posted 1/22/15
For profit prisons are obviously a bad idea, but thats capitalism for you. An the drug war has put many people behind bars that really shouldn't be there. We need reform, but thats easier said than done.
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27 / M / TX
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Posted 1/22/15

DarksirenxX wrote:


dragontackle wrote:

To hell with Prisons, lets just skip that step and execute on spot:
-Drug Dealers
-Murderers(unless it was justified)
-Pedophiles
-Rapists
-Terrorists
-Serial Killers
i.e anyone that commited a violent crime



does drug dealers really belong on this list.
are people brainwashed these days? the fact that the police continue to try to fight the "war on drugs" is a huge part of the problem
why do you think that drugs are so regulated?
I don't think it has much to do with them caring if people get high considering the fact that the pharmaceutical industry provides legalized opiates and barbiturates and other drugs to 70 percent of the people in the us.

I don't think it has anything to do with trying to lessen violence, because if drugs were not illegal do you really think people would be getting killed over them. I think not.





This is the one point I would disagree with you if you made drugs legal yes it would hurt the cartels and other groups bad, but they would make up for that lost by trafficking more people, openly kidnapping more people than they already have. Even when prohibition ended people still bought from moonshiners and mafia's because the tax on alcohol was so high. As for dragontackle list I agree with pretty much all of it , personally I would add human traffickers, kidnappers, and any one who brain washes/ tortures other people.







and the ever raging battle over marijuana, every one knows it is safe enough that people should be able choose if they want to do it or not, but here is the catch.

if you can make it at home you do not have to buy it from them.

if drugs were not regulated then the knowledge about how to make them safely and correctly would become commonplace and people wouldn't need to pay out the ass for their prescriptions. then the gov would lose the one and only monopoly they are allowed.
it is about money, it is always about money the prison thing too. it all only got this bad because there was someone pulling the strings thinking about how they could come up on people and not how they could lead people.




I'm not saying reforming the prison's is a bad idea but with everything this country if facing " job market going down, can't secure the borders, America and Russia relations so low "don't want 2 nuclear powerhouses so pissed at each other never a good combination" , so many people on welfare who should't be on it, scammers " I would advocate more to get these problems fix first.

Anyway all your posts were excellent reads



.
Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15

J-POP187 wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:


dragontackle wrote:

To hell with Prisons, lets just skip that step and execute on spot:
-Drug Dealers
-Murderers(unless it was justified)
-Pedophiles
-Rapists
-Terrorists
-Serial Killers
i.e anyone that commited a violent crime



does drug dealers really belong on this list.
are people brainwashed these days? the fact that the police continue to try to fight the "war on drugs" is a huge part of the problem
why do you think that drugs are so regulated?
I don't think it has much to do with them caring if people get high considering the fact that the pharmaceutical industry provides legalized opiates and barbiturates and other drugs to 70 percent of the people in the us.

I don't think it has anything to do with trying to lessen violence, because if drugs were not illegal do you really think people would be getting killed over them. I think not.





This is the one point I would disagree with you if you made drugs legal yes it would hurt the cartels and other groups bad, but they would make up for that lost by trafficking more people, openly kidnapping more people than they already have. Even when prohibition ended people still bought from moonshiners and mafia's because the tax on alcohol was so high. As for dragontackle list I agree with pretty much all of it , personally I would add human traffickers, kidnappers, and any one who brain washes/ tortures other people.







and the ever raging battle over marijuana, every one knows it is safe enough that people should be able choose if they want to do it or not, but here is the catch.

if you can make it at home you do not have to buy it from them.

if drugs were not regulated then the knowledge about how to make them safely and correctly would become commonplace and people wouldn't need to pay out the ass for their prescriptions. then the gov would lose the one and only monopoly they are allowed.
it is about money, it is always about money the prison thing too. it all only got this bad because there was someone pulling the strings thinking about how they could come up on people and not how they could lead people.




I'm not saying reforming the prison's is a bad idea but with everything this country if facing " job market going down, can't secure the borders, America and Russia relations so low "don't want 2 nuclear powerhouses so pissed at each other never a good combination" , so many people on welfare who should't be on it, scammers " I would advocate more to get these problems fix first.

Anyway all your posts were excellent reads



.


If only drugs were so benign. Factor in drug dealing (and I mean the barons of the cartels, not pushers on the street) and you have drugs in the hands of children and teens, , even selling them themselves. OP doesn't seem to mind drugs in schools as much as prison economics filling the pockets of wealthy executives, when in fact its the same in terms of severity, only its not just money with drugs, but kid's lives. So, kiss that ****, that ego needs a boost.
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24 / M / Toronto
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Posted 1/22/15
Prisons are necessary, it's just that the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world. The US's criminal justice system is heavily flawed, such as the systemic problem of racism. When you see the amount of black males in prison compared to white males and other groups, it is greatly disproportionate to the population.

To the people saying "just execute them", that's just f***ed up in my opinion, they are people, not animals (if you're going the moral route). However to back this with facts, the implementation of the death penalty has shown not to reduce crime or crime rates in many countries' its pointless. Another problem with the death penalty is that many people in prison that have been falsely placed there. You can read about many cases like this where some people have served over 10 years of a sentence before lawyers (hired by family or friends usually) can get sufficient evidence that they were falsely accused and were innocent. The problem with the death penalty is, what if you mistakenly sentenced innocent people to die? Is it worth it?

- 4th year Criminology Student
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Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15
Yes. They serve as a place of confinement for the murderers and assailants of the world, who otherwise would be out committing crime. If they were closed and the inmates released, the crime rate would drastically spike. Except for the people who've been jailed over, say, weed.
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27 / M / TX
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Posted 1/22/15

symphonicecho wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:


symphonicecho wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:


KillSeven wrote:

You actually give a lot of valid reasons for why you believe what you believe. I can't not respect that. Pretty sad that something like a prison has turned into another opportunity for a quick buck. That being said, prison is a necessary thing. Would you rather they run around the streets continuing to cause havoc or be detained? The other alternative is to kill them and I don't believe that's necessary at all.


is there really much of a difference? to live life in a small cell or be killed? they aren't much different if you ask me.


Well, for starters, prison is temporary whereas execution is permanent. I am not talking about lifers, but people that can be reformed. Like I said, its important to define what is an incarcerable crime before addressing what to do with convicts.


I wasn't arguing that fact or anything this quote was specifically referencing "lifers" that's all



It's not our place to murder. If a box isn't humane, neither is killing people. In wartime, in the context of combat, defense of one's country from a foreign power, and self-defense against an imminent danger or threat, fine. Otherwise, it is not our place to take a life. In the case of lifers, let them rot. God will judge them where man does not. Maybe you don't believe what I believe but I do, and if you cannot do the time, don't do the crime. Can't stray too far off topic, I don't wish to discuss death penalty, philosophy or religion in this thread, and you prob don't want to either. But killing is killing, and a lifer doing life (if he even isn't paroled and does his full sentence(chances are likely he won't have to unless parole was denied @ sentencing) is just. He will never breathe free air again or have a chance to harm innocents. Since I'm anti DP the cost of housing, room and board would be a necessary evil according to my beliefs, and unf. justified (but we can control how much we spend there).




I know you may not believe this but I was on my way to the priesthood, gave my first sermon at 15 and left at 20. You said you were anti DP while i'm Pro DP and I consider myself quite religious. While I agree with thou shalt not kill I believe in justice. While I believe God judges our souls I also believe he gave us this world to do as we see fit and in this world we humans came up with a justice system that we should live by, yes it has flaws but that is what we as humans came up with.
To murder is to willing take a life for a petty reason. Why should murderers be given the gift of living longer than there victims? I agree with you on the saying if you cant do the time don't do the crime but lets be reasonable there are somethings in this world that you cant do and expect to live. I could only speak for myself but I believe justice is different than vengeance.
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23 / M / Floripa
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Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15
oh, this thread
Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15

J-POP187 wrote:


symphonicecho wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:


symphonicecho wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:


KillSeven wrote:

You actually give a lot of valid reasons for why you believe what you believe. I can't not respect that. Pretty sad that something like a prison has turned into another opportunity for a quick buck. That being said, prison is a necessary thing. Would you rather they run around the streets continuing to cause havoc or be detained? The other alternative is to kill them and I don't believe that's necessary at all.


is there really much of a difference? to live life in a small cell or be killed? they aren't much different if you ask me.


Well, for starters, prison is temporary whereas execution is permanent. I am not talking about lifers, but people that can be reformed. Like I said, its important to define what is an incarcerable crime before addressing what to do with convicts.


I wasn't arguing that fact or anything this quote was specifically referencing "lifers" that's all



It's not our place to murder. If a box isn't humane, neither is killing people. In wartime, in the context of combat, defense of one's country from a foreign power, and self-defense against an imminent danger or threat, fine. Otherwise, it is not our place to take a life. In the case of lifers, let them rot. God will judge them where man does not. Maybe you don't believe what I believe but I do, and if you cannot do the time, don't do the crime. Can't stray too far off topic, I don't wish to discuss death penalty, philosophy or religion in this thread, and you prob don't want to either. But killing is killing, and a lifer doing life (if he even isn't paroled and does his full sentence(chances are likely he won't have to unless parole was denied @ sentencing) is just. He will never breathe free air again or have a chance to harm innocents. Since I'm anti DP the cost of housing, room and board would be a necessary evil according to my beliefs, and unf. justified (but we can control how much we spend there).




I know you may not believe this but I was on my way to the priesthood, gave my first sermon at 15 and left at 20. You said you were anti DP while i'm Pro DP and I consider myself quite religious. While I agree with thou shalt not kill I believe in justice. While I believe God judges our souls I also believe he gave us this world to do as we see fit and in this world we humans came up with a justice system that we should live by, yes it has flaws but that is what we as humans came up with.
To murder is to willing take a life for a petty reason. Why should murderers be given the gift of living longer than there victims? I agree with you on the saying if you cant do the time don't do the crime but lets be reasonable there are somethings in this world that you cant do and expect to live. I could only speak for myself but I believe justice is different than vengeance.

There is a chance we could execute an innocent man. Some are found innocent after 10 years or more, sometimes on death row. For one, That risk is too great on my conscience, just one innocent person executed is enough to make me turn away from DP.
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F / ar away
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Posted 1/22/15 , edited 1/22/15
The two opposite extremes for those questioning the necessity of prisons over some ethical concerns are 1) unrestricted capital punishment and 2) just letting criminals run free. Prison is necessary because it is the solution, it is the compromise. Of course there are plenty of crimes in which the death penalty wouldn't be warranted but the perspective that people go to prison or are executed as a form of punishment shows the public that this punishment exists and is very real for anyone who insists on living a life that is a nuisance to society. It's reassurance that the world outside prison is reasonably safe to walk around in.

As an aside I want to mention that I am an atheist who is also pro-DP which is apparently quite rare. I'm quite intrigued if any anti or pro-DP people who do fit the mold better feel like chatting me up on this topic.
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21 / M / Death Star
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Posted 1/23/15

DarksirenxX wrote:


KillSeven wrote:

You actually give a lot of valid reasons for why you believe what you believe. I can't not respect that. Pretty sad that something like a prison has turned into another opportunity for a quick buck. That being said, prison is a necessary thing. Would you rather they run around the streets continuing to cause havoc or be detained? The other alternative is to kill them and I don't believe that's necessary at all.


is there really much of a difference? to live life in a small cell or be killed? they aren't much different if you ask me.


There is a huge difference between being dead and alive... Regardless of your location. Lol.
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22 / M / Honnouji academy
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Posted 1/23/15
I think we should go medieval style and hang/decapitate rapists/murderers.. oh what if they're falsely accused ? then if later found to be innocent the person that got hanged/decapitated, all of the jury and the judge that sentenced him/her to being hanged/decapitated should also be hanged/decapitated.
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27 / F / in my office
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Posted 1/23/15

evilotakuneko wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:
prisoners in FPP's [for profit prisons]

Which we have established is a minority of prisoners.



at the very best paying one make 20$ per month working a skilled labor job outsourced through a corporation on American soil. instead of hiring American citizens for the same exact job for 850$ to 1300$ dollars monthly they are being allowed to hire a prisoner for 20.00 if you look at the discrepancy there when you multiply that number by 200,000 in the lowest range somewhere around
160,000,000
and this is per month so multiply that by
12
you get
1,920,000,000 dollars per year
at the lowest possible income taken from the people
and the highest salary actually paid to prisoners giving the best benefit of the doubt to the prison industry
however, in reality there is only on single prison that even pays this well most will pay inmates 10-15$ per month for 6 hours a day 30 days a month of skilled labor and realistically most skilled labor jobs are going to pay closer to 1,200 per month
so we crunch the numbers once more with the benefit of the doubt focused more towards realityannddd....
1200-15=1185
1185x200,000=237,000,000$ per month-
237,000,000 x 12= 2,844,000,000

so are you still suggesting that two billion, eight hundred and forty four million dollars per year, that should have been payed by corporations to skilled American laborers, being pocketed and saved by major corporations by outsourcing jobs through prisons on American soil, does not affect the working class economy? you think that the 20 dollars a month spent by inmates makes up for that? it doesn't even come close.


1. UN-skilled labor. We're not talking about engineers, craftsman, accountants, and auto mechanics here. We're talking monkey work that any Joe with a strong back could do.
2. Would any of these jobs would have been filled by free citizens in the first place? For example do you know why illegal immigrants pick your produce, dig your ditches, and cook your food? In part, it's because there's a shortage of legal workers to do the dirty jobs. Our economy would suffer more from not having such disadvantaged people around.
3. That'd be roughly ~200,000 minimum wage jobs. Jobs that in all likelihood would be taken up by illegals because no one else wants them.
4. Corporations don't just sit around and swim in their piles of cash. Neither the jobs nor the money involved are a zero-sum game.

And again -- we're talking about a small minority of prisoners here. Three billion dollars is a drop in the bucket in an economy worth trillions. A couple hundred thousand unskilled, undesirable, low-paying, entry-level jobs aren't even going to make a dent in the unemployment rates.




2,844,000,000.00$ per year
is going to the ceo,s of major corporations,
instead of being paid into the hands of skilled laborers,
see the above post for the exact math


Contrary to popular belief, there's not a one-to-one correlation between a corporation's profit and the size of the CEO's paycheck.



corporations found an awesome way to outsource jobs right here on American soil. that is one argument.


Naturally because outsourcing does not necessarily mean offshoring. ;)



please don't think that because my argument deals with the American economy that all arguments are limited to the subject of economy. any subject matter is fine


All of your arguments thus far have dealt with either the economy or poor conditions in for-profit prisons. Neither support your now-abandoned thesis of universal prison abolishment very well. :p

So eh, what IS the point we're discussing now anyway? I don't think there's much disagreement that for-profit prisons suck and should be better regulated and/or abolished.



No in fact we are talking about skilled labor. so are you saying that 2 billion dollars is nothing to care about? not to menton that what they are doing is just morally wrong. that should be the first argument to come to mind however i have found that most people in America don't give a crap about morally wrong as long as it is worth money it is okay. but what i'm trying to show here is that it isn't actually worth money to anybody but the select corporations who are profiting from it. in fact it screwing over the lower/ working class of society as a whole. please don't ask me to cite sources again i put them in a previous post at least three times so if you want to know then find em.

a good friend of mine is currently in this system. he is a carpenter and a framer. he does skilled labor and he does the same job he was doing when he was a free man for 20.00 an hour for 20.00 a month. he will be there for 7 years because he got charged with resisting arrest, and aggravated assault on a police officer.

what they considered to be aggravated assault was the fact that, while they were beating his ass, while he was already handcuffed by the way, one officer grabbed his leg to pull it out from under him and in an attempt to get his balance while falling his other leg made contact with the other officers calf. this was unintentional and the court even acknowledged this fact but because it arose from "resisting arrest" they said it was still a charge able offense. by resisting arrest this is what they meant. at some point after shawn was taken into custody for a bench warrant for an unpaid traffic violation, he got really pissed and started yelling at the officer from the back of the cop car. that is what they told the jury. this is what they withheld from the record. when shawn was already arrested and in the back of the cop car one of the officers approached him and said something along the lines of "hey your girlfriend is pretty hot maybe i should hit that after i take you to the station." and then pointed out the fact that he could see her thong (he was picking his girl up from beauty school when they pulled him over and she was sitting on the curb while the officer ran her id to make sure she didn't have warrants. tthis is why shawn got pissed. who woulnt get pissed. so because he opened his mouth and yelled at the officer for what he said, they took him back out of the cop car and proceeded to beat his ass while he was handcuffed tased him then kicked his ribs in until they collapsed his lung. he had the hospital record in court to prove this. not one of the officers even has a scratch on them.
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27 / F / in my office
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Posted 1/23/15

symphonicecho wrote:


J-POP187 wrote:


DarksirenxX wrote:


dragontackle wrote:

To hell with Prisons, lets just skip that step and execute on spot:
-Drug Dealers
-Murderers(unless it was justified)
-Pedophiles
-Rapists
-Terrorists
-Serial Killers
i.e anyone that commited a violent crime



does drug dealers really belong on this list.
are people brainwashed these days? the fact that the police continue to try to fight the "war on drugs" is a huge part of the problem
why do you think that drugs are so regulated?
I don't think it has much to do with them caring if people get high considering the fact that the pharmaceutical industry provides legalized opiates and barbiturates and other drugs to 70 percent of the people in the us.

I don't think it has anything to do with trying to lessen violence, because if drugs were not illegal do you really think people would be getting killed over them. I think not.





This is the one point I would disagree with you if you made drugs legal yes it would hurt the cartels and other groups bad, but they would make up for that lost by trafficking more people, openly kidnapping more people than they already have. Even when prohibition ended people still bought from moonshiners and mafia's because the tax on alcohol was so high. As for dragontackle list I agree with pretty much all of it , personally I would add human traffickers, kidnappers, and any one who brain washes/ tortures other people.







and the ever raging battle over marijuana, every one knows it is safe enough that people should be able choose if they want to do it or not, but here is the catch.

if you can make it at home you do not have to buy it from them.

if drugs were not regulated then the knowledge about how to make them safely and correctly would become commonplace and people wouldn't need to pay out the ass for their prescriptions. then the gov would lose the one and only monopoly they are allowed.
it is about money, it is always about money the prison thing too. it all only got this bad because there was someone pulling the strings thinking about how they could come up on people and not how they could lead people.




I'm not saying reforming the prison's is a bad idea but with everything this country if facing " job market going down, can't secure the borders, America and Russia relations so low "don't want 2 nuclear powerhouses so pissed at each other never a good combination" , so many people on welfare who should't be on it, scammers " I would advocate more to get these problems fix first.

Anyway all your posts were excellent reads



.


If only drugs were so benign. Factor in drug dealing (and I mean the barons of the cartels, not pushers on the street) and you have drugs in the hands of children and teens, , even selling them themselves. OP doesn't seem to mind drugs in schools as much as prison economics filling the pockets of wealthy executives, when in fact its the same in terms of severity, only its not just money with drugs, but kid's lives. So, kiss that ****, that ego needs a boost.


so what you are saying is that if drugs were legal then everyone is going to do them? would you do them even if they were legal you don't seem to like drugs so why would you do them?

i personally think of it this way, there are people who do drugs and people who don't do them. even if the law tries to get in the middle of this it obviously doesn't stop this fact. this is why there are so many being arrested for drugs.

and no i don't think that someones freedom should be taken from them for something they did to their own body. and i think that people should be responsible enough to educate their children properly about the effect of drugs on your body.
i know after taking ap bio in highschool and learning about what drugs do to you in depth i will never do them. not that i had much desire to them in the first place but after learning about them i could never be convinced or tricked into it by anyone.

and no i didn't say that drugs should be let into schools would you please refrain from your accusatory remarks and have a mature conversation here. if you cant do that then stop talking to me this is getting kinda tiring.

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21 / M / Death Star
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Posted 1/23/15


and no i don't think that someones freedom should be taken from them for something they did to their own body. and i think that people should be responsible enough to educate their children properly about the effect of drugs on your body.
i know after taking ap bio in highschool and learning about what drugs do to you in depth i will never do them. not that i had much desire to them in the first place but after learning about them i could never be convinced or tricked into it by anyone.


The whole "my body" argument is really old and kind of stupid at this point.

Yes it's your body, and you do say people should educate themselves about drugs (i'm confused because you're kind of contradicting yourself here.) but at the end of the day what you put into your body does not only effect you, but it effects the people around you. Someone's freedom should be taken away from them if they decide to drink vast amounts of liquor and then get in a fight, or drive and crash into another person. People who take hard drugs often end up doing the same things and sometimes even killing others in their high. Hell, even things like Marijuana have the ability to slow your reaction time so that's also a no-no for some people, especially when driving. But I mean honestly... there is a reason as to why drug dealers and addicts are in prison and why they should stay there. Your argument is essentially the equivalent of an impregnated teen mom drinking or even going as far to abort the baby, and putting up the argument of "it's my body." Every action has a reaction.
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