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Post Reply What excuse do you have for not believing in macro evolution?
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Posted 2/2/15 , edited 2/2/15



Seriously? - im just trolling you lol. & proving/disproving something is irrelevant. I don't have to prove unicorns don't exist to win an argument they don't. Any argument that goes vastly outside observable reality has the burden of proof, i.e. I have lived 24 years & never seen a Unicorn; in those 24 no evidence has been found of their existence - therefore a rational assertion that unicorns don't exist wins. Most arguments don't have absolute truth.

What has you on such a rant? Newly converted Atheist? - Watch Fox News too much today?

Mas4t0 
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Posted 2/2/15
Let's try this again.

If the evidence for evolution is simply that different species share lineage and a common origin, it would not necessarily prove that they evolved naturally, it would be equally indicative of intelligent design. Design is generally evolutionary in that an initial concept is not often thrown out entirely, but is instead refined over a number of generations until the product is perfected or further refinement is not necessary or possible. These developmental changes can be very small to the point of being almost imperceptible or they can be immense, resulting in an almost completely unrecognisable variant which does all the same share the core features of the original prototype.

If a creator had applied basic industrial design methodology to creating life on earth, the methodology itself coupled with a lack of pruning the excess would explain away the evidence for evolution as you have expressed it.

How then in your understanding does the evidence to support evolution disprove creationism?
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Posted 2/2/15

serifsansserif wrote:


Shishiku wrote:

Some of us know the real truth....



NO!!!!


You're right.. I should have trolled... >.>


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. That's awesome.
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Posted 2/2/15 , edited 2/2/15
Arguing about this kind of stuff is pointless.. At the end of the day regardless of what someone thinks or doesn't, things are the way they are.. Don't get so personally involved in trying to prove yourself and your beliefs to other people. We are all people, and should all have the respect we deserve for our beliefs, as long as we aren't causing harm to someone else. I'm not saying it is wrong to talk about your beliefs/thoughts, but to treat others as if your beliefs are the only way, and all other ways are wrong is pure foolishness.. Who put you in the position to decide that everyone else's way of perception has no validation? I'm not trying to say that creationism or evolution are either right or wrong.. What I am saying, is that just because one person perceives things in one way, does not mean that the opposite of their perception is false.. Personally, I have my own beliefs.. and I feel about them relatively strongly.. But that does not mean I am not willing to ponder something that goes beyond my beliefs. A man should not allow his beliefs to limit him from pondering things outside of them.. Once again.. It isn't to say whether or not something is right or wrong.. But at the very least, don't let yourself become so attached to your beliefs that you aren't able to at least look at other ways of perception..

Some people seem to be afraid to not become so personally involved with their beliefs though, because then I believe a certain amount of loss of identity comes.. And, I think we as humans cling to identity, because it helps us feel secure.
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Posted 2/2/15

DesuMaiden wrote:

Question towards all creationists. I know there are creationists on this forum, so I am asking them this simple question.

You realize creationism is not science right? Evolution is science. More specifically macro-evolution happens. We have genetic, physiological, anatomical and fossil record evidence of evolution. We can now prove that fish evolved into amphibians, amphibians into reptiles, reptiles into mammals, and mammals eventually evolved into man (who is also a mammal).

We know human beings evolved from monkeys, which evolved into apes, and then apes evolved into humans. In fact, humans are primates and a member of the ape family. We have genetic evidence that man has evolved from apes. We have fossil evidence that man evolved from more primitive apes (saying humans aren't apes is inaccurate because humans are apes). The physiological and anatomical evidence also shows this.

So what excuse do you have for not believing that human beings evolved from other animals? The evidence for macro-evolution aka the fact that animals and plants can evolve into different species is overwhelming. You can't possibly believe that it is more credible to believe that human beings were made in the image of God from mud?

What makes more sense? Humans being magically created from mud by God? Or the overwhelming scientific evidence that man evolved from other animals through hundreds of millions of years of evolution? I think the second statement makes much more sense.

Denying human evolution is as foolish as denying that the Earth is round. I believe many religious people deny evolution because they want to feel that human beings are superior to other life forms.

You can't say that human beings are superior to other animals, which have been around on Earth for much longer than us. Dinosaurs, for example, ruled the Earth for 160 million years. Homo Sapiens has only been around for only 200,000 years. So in terms of longevity, other species are definitely more successful than us. And you can't say humans are more successful than other animals because we have a large population. Insect species have much larger populations than human beings, so I guess by that criteria that means they are more successful than human beings. You can't say humans are superior to other animals because we can create computers, cars, TVs, the Internet, and airplanes. Why? It is because other animals don't need those tools, and they survive perfectly without them. Other animals can also survive in extreme climates that human beings can't possibly survive without technology. The list goes on. There is no way you can justify human beings being superior to other life forms.

Humans are not inferior or superior to other animals. We are animals. Just accept this fact. Making a distinction between human beings and animals is pointless and foolish because that denies our animal origins. The fact we evolved from fish and other organisms is undeniable. The science says it.

Creationism is foolish. It is as foolish as God belief. Maybe there exists a God, but I certainly don't believe he made us in his image. I don't believe a perfect God would make imperfect humans in his image.

I don't believe mankind needs to be fruitful and multiply like what the Bible says. There is already enough of us on this planet. We don't need to double population again . 7 billion human beings is a much higher population than the population of other similar-to-human sized animals. Imagine what the world would be like if there were 7 billion chimpanzees, gorillas, tigers, lions, leopards or deer? Are there anywhere near 7 billion of those similar-to-human sized animals? No. So why is it necessary for there to be more than 7 billion humans? Humanity has effectively become a cancer on this planet, which grows uncontrollably and killing its host, which is the Earth's biosphere. And when the biosphere dies, humanity dies with it. Unlike other animals, mankind's population grows uncontrollably, and mankind's survival depends on infringing on other species' survival. Unlike other animals, which live in harmony and balance with their ecosystem, mankind destroys the ecosystem he lives in for his own benefit and at the expense of all of the other species. So I guess that makes mankind inferior to all other life forms, contrary to the religious people who think mankind is superior to all other life forms?

And I believe the belief that human intellect is far superior to other life forms is vastly overrated. Other life forms have been demonstrated to be sentient, problem solve, have emotions and other have cognitive abilities that humans possess. Even in terms of intellect, mankind is no longer proven to be superior to other life forms.

So all of this I guess debunks traditional religious beliefs that mankind is superior to other life forms, that mankind is separate from nature or that mankind is somehow unique and different from other life forms. Going back to my original point, I still strongly believe that some religious people deny human evolution because they believe that God has made man in his image, and that human beings are somehow superior to other animals. This has been proven to be false.

That's just my two cents. I know a thing or two about religious people, and I think religious beliefs are mostly delusional.



too long, didn't read, already know what it says. and i feel like crap so i'm short on patience

A. the gensis account says god created humans. never said how or how long it took. so the two are not at odds. if were talking about the bible, anyways.

B. stop trying to turn a scientific theory in to a religous dogma. or stop trying to compare faith to science.

and faith, religous or other wise is at the heart of what makes up human. england had faith it could stop the nazi's, despite all evidence to the contrary. dont shit on other peoples faith.

im dropping this thread. go spread hate some where else. and yes, i am aware of my hate filled reply. im just too tired to care right now.
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Posted 2/2/15 , edited 2/2/15

ReadingTheStars95 wrote:

Arguing about this kind of stuff is pointless.. At the end of the day regardless of what someone thinks or doesn't, things are the way they are.. Don't get so personally involved in trying to prove yourself and your beliefs to other people. We are all people, and should all have the respect we deserve for our beliefs, as long as we aren't causing harm to someone else. I'm not saying it is wrong to talk about your beliefs/thoughts, but to treat others as if your beliefs are the only way, and all other ways are wrong is pure foolishness.. Who put you in the position to decide that everyone else's way of perception has no validation? I'm not trying to say that creationism or evolution are either right or wrong.. What I am saying, is that just because one person perceives things in one way, does not mean that the opposite of their perception is false.. Personally, I have my own beliefs.. and I feel about them relatively strongly.. But that does not mean I am not willing to ponder something that goes beyond my beliefs. A man should not allow his beliefs to limit him from pondering things outside of them.. Once again.. It isn't to say whether or not something is right or wrong.. But at the very least, don't let yourself become so attached to your beliefs that you aren't able to at least look at other ways of perception..

Some people seem to be afraid to not become so personally involved with their beliefs though, because then I believe a certain amount of loss of identity comes.. And, I think we as humans cling to identity, because it helps us feel secure.

belief and opinion has no worth to anyone but the person who hold them.
they are not to be respected, respect a persons right to have them, but not the opinions and beliefs themselves.
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Posted 2/2/15

DesuMaiden wrote:


jhanna_12 wrote:

^true.


Basing on the idea of evolution, monkeys are like cousin of humans... we didn't evolve from monkeys e.e

edit: outposted xD I meant, what Lupeez said is true



Also, even if I am a Christian, I do believe in evolution as well and you know what, even without religion, even without the Bible telling you to "multiply", humans will still reproduce =.= your science also tells you that


Just as a side note. I wasn't trying to disprove God. For all I know, there might be a God out there. But Adam and Eve have been debunked. And without Adam and Eve, creationism is debunked. Sure you can say "God created evolution and then through evolution humans evolved". But that begs the question, why did God create humans? And what makes you think God created us in his image? You got any proof that we were created in the image of God?

Even if I accept God created humans, how do I know he created us in his image? Why not some other alien species that might be "superior" to us? What if there are superpowerful aliens that can breath fire and fly at the speed of sound? How do you know God didn't create them in his image rather than us? You can't prove God created US in his image even if there is a God (which there might be one).

All I'm saying is I don't accept the belief that God created us in his image, and that human beings are the pinnacle of all life. Who knows? There might be aliens on another planet that are smarter than us? How do you know God didn't create them in his image rather than us?

I was never trying to disprove God. What I was trying to disprove is that the belief that human beings were created by God to be the pinnacle of all life. And that we are superior to all other life forms. That is a very arrogant belief because you can't disprove there aren't aliens out there that might be smarter and more powerful then us (i.e. aliens that are sentient like us, but can fire lasers out of their mouths and have powers like those people in DBZ).

I personally don't know if there is a God or not. Maybe there is a god. Maybe there isn't a god. But either way, if Adam and Eve never existed, there is no original sin. And with no original sin, there is no reason for salvation from Christ. And without that, there is no reason to believe in Christianity. That's all I'm saying.


Chill I did say I believe in evolution, I don't know what's your point in telling me those and being too repetitive. You said "I don't believe mankind needs to be fruitful and multiply like what the Bible says. There is already enough of us on this planet. We don't need to double population again" and I say "even without religion, even without the Bible telling you to "multiply", humans will still reproduce. your science also tells you that". no where did I argue that God created us to His image so don't try to insinuate me.

and mind you, Bible IS A HUMAN CREATION, God did not write the bible. Who knows? Bible can be interpreted into many different things: evident into many branches of Christianity. One branch can interpret it as God created the first humans from 'actual' mud, another branch can see it metaphorically.

suggestion: Perception of truth is different in people. Your truth can be different to my truth, there could be an absolute truth, or multiple truths, or none at all. In the end, you would be asking What is truth? But no one can really answer that. So suggestion is, don't waste your energy on asking this kind of question, with you being highly self-opinionated in a condescending manner

But seeing aliens firing lasers on their mouth is cool yo I like that
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Posted 2/2/15
Never understood why people feel the burning desire to disprove and crush the opposing view's opinions.
Rohzek 
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Posted 2/2/15 , edited 2/2/15

DesuMaiden wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I don't like to call other people's beliefs retarded. Sure, do I think it is beyond illogical? Yes, but I can at least say it in a nicer way. I don't even use the word retarded unless it refers to a mentally disabled person with mental retardation.


Ok, I changed it to unscientific. Happy now? Nobody is offended now right? You realize creationism is unscientific right? It is unscientific. Because the whole "God created Adam from mud. And the first women Eve, was created from Adam's rib." is not scientific right? That's just mythology. Virtually everyone accepts this fact. The moment you accept this fact, Christianity falls apart on its face, because without Adam and Eve, there is no original sin, and without original sin, there is no need for salvation from Christ.

So yes, evolution debunks Christianity. The moment you accept the fact that man evolved from other animals, the moment you realize there is no Adam and Eve. And without Adam and Eve, there is no original sin. And without original sin, there is NO reason for salvation through Christ. And without salvation through Christ, the edifice of Christianity just falls apart.

This, however, doesn't prove that doesn't exist. I never claimed God doesn't exist. I am agnostic. I believe it is possible for a higher power to exist. But I have no reason to worship him because he is not worthy of worship (if he exists). This, however, destroys the edifice on which Christianity is founded upon.

You can say that "God created evolution". Sure I can't disprove that point. I never argued that God doesn't exist. I am arguing that the Adam and Eve story never happened. And since it never happened, Christianity falls apart because without Adam and Eve, there is no original sin. Without original sin, there is no need for salvation through Christ. And without that, you don't need Christianity to be saved through anything.

Christianity has been debunked thoroughly many times. Debunking Christianity is not the same thing as atheism. Many people believe in a God, but do not adhere to any religion. As I said, I'm not an atheist. But I don't believe in Christianity either.


Except that is wrong too. Origen of Alexandria, an early Church Father and from the 2nd century AD, explicitly stated that the Adam and Eve story cannot literally be true. He concluded this through his own means and without access to the more compelling evidence of Charles Darwin. Origen advocated the idea that the Adam and Eve story should be taken as allegorical. Just because evolution is true, it does not mean that Christianity is thereby proven false. It just means that the school of Christian fundamentalism/literalism has been largely discredited.

Taken the allegorical route, I can still argue for the Augustinian notion of Original Sin or argue for the Eastern Christian notion of Ancestral Sin.
Posted 2/2/15
You're trying to convince people who believe the Earth was created before the Sun?

Good luck.
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Posted 2/2/15
I think you lost me after about the fist sentence.

"Creationists, you know you're wrong and stupid right?" Yeah not really a great way to start a civil discussion.
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Posted 2/2/15 , edited 2/7/15
What excuse do you have for abusing research findings? A few of which are incorrect in your first post, by the way. (Man from monkeys? When was the last time you studied up?)

I'm not going to call you stupid, but you sure do suck at science. Any researcher knows that all conclusions are to be held tentatively. You may lean toward an explanation based on the weight of evidence, but you don't go about saying anything is proven beyond all shadow of a doubt. Science is supposed to be a means by which we test our ideas to check for mistakes and gain greater understanding of our world. It is not to be used as a plaything with which to justify condescending hatred.
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Posted 2/2/15

masked185 wrote:

I think you lost me after about the fist sentence.

"Creationists, you know you're wrong and stupid right?" Yeah not really a great way to start a civil discussion.


wow no wonder he changed it
Posted 2/2/15

Sogno- wrote:


masked185 wrote:

I think you lost me after about the fist sentence.

"Creationists, you know you're wrong and stupid right?" Yeah not really a great way to start a civil discussion.


wow no wonder he changed it


Well, least he changed it. Gotta give credit where it is due.
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Posted 2/2/15
Do you want to piss people off? Because this is exactly how you piss people off.

First of all, humans did not evolve from monkeys. We have a common ancestor but don't try to act all high and mighty when your information is wrong, lest you want to look incredibly foolish.

Second, for someone who doesn't believe humans are superior to other animals, you certainly like to talk down to others. Religion is not stupid for those who believe in it. Science and religion are simply incongruent at this moment. Science can neither prove nor disprove any aspect of religion but that doesn't make it any less relevant to those who choose to turn to religion.

Quite honestly, you speak with the same condescending attitude of those religious zealots you look down. Come back when you've outgrown your immaturity.

If you want to get some more information about the religion vs evolution debate, I would recommend this video form Nova. Much less inflammatory and it poses some interesting questions about the lines between religion, science and state.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HZzGXnYL5I
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