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Post Reply Are Christianity and Islam False?
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Posted 2/4/15 , edited 2/17/15
I also should point out that Atheism IS a belief system. So I find it hilarious when an atheist says ALL belief systems should be abolished.
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Posted 2/4/15 , edited 2/4/15

DesuMaiden wrote:

There are people who believe in God, but reject religion altogether.



I think you may be confusing religion in it's purest meaning and organized religion/religious-factions...

What you are describing is known as an Agnostic-Theist; there are a huge range of beliefs that is covered by this category. Essentially they all share that they believe in the existence or strong possibility of god or gods but do not assume knowledge of some or all properties of god(s). Without concrete the properties the definition of god can greatly fluctuate anywhere between an all-knowing and all powerful-being to merely a programmer who made a virtual universe and is running a simulation akin to a ridiculously high-tech version of The Sims. Origin theories and hypotheses tend to only cover the universe as we know it and not delve into nested or parallel existences.

These tend to be the most open-minded of any religious classification.

As far as established religions go keep in mind that when you translate something over time it tends to lose it's interpretation as languages tend to have subtle nuances and extra meaning within special contexts and period dialect. Then you have to consider things such as corruption where things become declared sin simply due to the personal convictions or convenience of those in power.

This thus leads to sub-groups of unorganized religion that can be classified in a similar manner to "Agnostic-Theist; Christian-Agnostics" which is where my beliefs fall into. These beliefs are not absolute and they are formed on my own.

You can't just throw out entire religious classes based only on one interpretation when there are for our purposes infinitely many interpretations. That variation is the entire reason why I do not believe in organized religion as it usually ends up being used as a tool to manipulate the masses.
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Posted 2/4/15

Just to further my point I edited my post with a documentary on Jim Jones. This is a guy who twisted the Christian religion for his own greedy purpose.

Rohzek 
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DesuMaiden wrote:

Just read the articles on this link.

http://godisimaginary.com/

I don't think God can be disproven. I believe it is POSSIBLE that some sort of higher power exists. But even if there exists a god or gods, Christianity and Islam are still false.

I know what the typical response from a Muslim or Christian will be. They will ignore the link. Or they might start rationalizing why their religion is correct. But no amount of rationalization is going to make a false ideology correct.

Do I need to show you a picture of why Christianity is an absurdity?



Shit articles are shit articles. I endorse postpositivist philosophy and also endorse Christianity, so allow me to point out the shit ton of logical fallacies you've made.


DesuMaiden wrote:

And belief that God will send you into hell for all eternity if you don't worship is the most heinous and insidious form of thought crime you can imagine. Imagine what it would be like if I said "if you don't worship me, I will kill you". That's just disgusting. I don't believe an all-power and all-good being will force us to worship him. It is basically like this...IF YOU DON'T WORSHIP ME, I WILL PUNISH YOU. That's the most egomaniac or fascist belief possible.

Plus, God is a jerk (if he exists at all). The problem of evil proves that it is impossible to have an all-good and all-powerful god. Why doesn't God prevent evil if he is all-good and all-powerful? Clearly, the Christian god doesn't exist because of the problem of evil.


First off, it is impossible to fully comprehend God. Therefore, by their very nature the descriptors "omnipotent" and "omnipresent" are imperfect descriptors.

God is good by virtue of being God. If God created everything, and brought all things out of non-being into being, then by that very nature any authoritative code of ethics is below the supreme majesty of God. It's simple logic really. Therefore, if God says do this or that, then it does not matter what it might be. Because it is God's will, it is therefore automatically good.


DesuMaiden wrote:And don't give me a link to some Christian apologist like William Lane Craig. I will absolutely refute any Christian or Islamic apologism that you can throw at me. .

Personally I am agnostic. I believe it is possible for a god or gods to exist, but I have no reason to worship them.

I believe Christianity and Islam need to thrown in the trash can because these religions believe in infinite population growth. Infinite population growth is not possible and will destroy us as a species.


Actually, many Christians believe birth control is okay. And even those who do not, such as Catholics, almost over 90% of them practice birth control anyway, where it is easily available. So you can toss this argument out the door as unrealistic and hyperbole.


DesuMaiden wrote:I don't care if you think I'm condescending. I'm not being condescending. I'm being honest. This stuff is nonsense. And it needs to be thrown in the trash can immediately. Here's a nice picture of your precious religions in a trash can.



These religions are just archaic myths and legends that need to discarded instantly. Religion is the opium of the masses as Karl Marx said. It is. It intellectual rubbish. And I believe people who believe in such nonsense lack in critical thinking.


Have you ever even read Karl Marx or the exact context of that statement?


DesuMaiden wrote:I can't say all religions are nonsense. Some religions may actually be true. But I believe certain religions need to tossed in the trash can immediately. Start with a new religion or belief system that actually makes sense. Not a false belief system that endangers the world.



DesuMaiden wrote:


Menthuthuyoupi wrote:

You can't prove religion wrong with empirical knowledge alone because it exists partially outside the physical world; it's an issue of spirituality and obviously lots of people do not find it "absolutely absurd" And why specify only Christianity and Islam as being false?


That's actually a common misconception. Empirical knowledge can prove religions to be false. Here's an example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God:_The_Failed_Hypothesis

For example, the Bible's story of Adam and Eve has been proven to be false. Also, the story of Noah's Arc and the Great Flood has been proven to be false. So don't say "empirical evidence can't disprove religion". It has.

Can supernatural things happen? Yes, but still doesn't validate religion because you can't prove these supernatural things have to come from god. How do you know Jesus Christ wasn't an alien from another planet who turned wine into water and performed other miracles with his alien technology? You can't. So you can't say Jesus Christ is the Son of God just based on miraculous things he did (that is if you assume the story of Jesus is correct).



It's clear you read nothing of my previous post in your evolution thread. Allow me to school you once again. Since the earliest days of Christianity, many Church Fathers argued for an allegorical interpretation of Genesis. Those Church Fathers argued that the Adam and Eve story was literally impossible, etc. While there have been many traditions of interpretation, all Darwin did was put the final nail in the coffin for ONE school of scriptural interpretation. Evolution does not disprove Christianity.

Maybe Jesus was just an alien. You might be right. But since we have no way to empirically verify it, whether I decide to believe he is a God, or a Muslim decides to believe he was a profit, or if you decide to believe he was an alien are ALL arbitrary decisions. It's like saying: "There is a unicorn that does not let itself be observed." Since we cannot observe this evasive unicorn, we cannot prove whether or not it exists. Therefore, belief in the unicorn is completely arbitrary. So please, tell me why I cannot say Jesus is the son of God again?


DesuMaiden wrote:It is possible this may not change the minds of theists. But I can provide you with countless websites and links that refute these religions. And the evidence for these religions being false is overwhelming. You just need to be open-minded and accept reality, and then you will realize and accept the folly of these religious beliefs.

Religious people are so defensive when you challenge their beliefs because I believe they deep down-inside know this stuff is nonsense. But they believe in it anyways to get a false sense of security and false sense of superiority to others.


You know what, I'm beginning to think I am superior to you because your tendency to simply issue out blanket statements must be the result of some form of mental retardation. Unless you can find the actual body of Christ or something along those lines, you haven't proven anything.

I challenge you to empirically demonstrate that all religious people deep down inside know this shit to be false. If you cannot do so, then it is nothing more than an arbitrary assertion.


DesuMaiden wrote:Religion relies on censorship to keep people in believing a lie. But the Internet has opened the doors of censorship, and allowed us free access to information. And this free access to information has proven religion to be a bunch of nonsense.

You can't call me arrogant for not believing in superstitions. I'm enlightened enough to not believe in this nonsense called Islam and Christianity.


I won't call you arrogant. Whether you believe in a religion or not is completely up to you. What I will say is this: Your supposed "disproofs" are not disproofs at all. If anything, they display a piss poor understanding of the religions you are arguing against, as well as the diverse schools of thought contained within them. Furthermore and in particular, your statement that "Jesus might be an alien and thus you cannot say he is God," is totally broken logic wise. David Hume and Sir Karl Popper would be disappointed in you.
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Posted 2/4/15
Religion was used as a morale boost during times of war. If soldiers thought there was a Heaven waiting for them, they would be more willing to risk there lives. Also religious texts served to be a way of capitalising on people desperation thousands of years ago by giving them hope in exchange for money. In essence Jesus was a magician who capitalised on his viewers to ensure he could live an easier life.
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BinaryJava wrote:
Also religious texts served to be a way of capitalising on people desperation thousands of years ago by giving them hope in exchange for money.


"Thousands of years ago" literacy rates were so low that you would probably make more money selling your left ear to a hermit.
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Posted 2/4/15
That's why people could so easily be fooled, even academics who wrote religious texts such as the bible fell for Jesus' magic tricks.
Posted 2/4/15

BinaryJava wrote:

That's why people could so easily be fooled, even academics who wrote religious texts such as the bible fell for Jesus' magic tricks.


Didn't know "academics" wrote the Bible. The things I learn everyday...
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_MissTake_ wrote:


BinaryJava wrote:

That's why people could so easily be fooled, even academics who wrote religious texts such as the bible fell for Jesus' magic tricks.


Didn't know "academics" wrote the Bible. The things I learn everyday...


Of course his disciples where a main contributor to the bible but other spiritual persons allowed the texts to be literate and contain "life lessons" to flesh out the story.
Posted 2/4/15

BinaryJava wrote:

Of course his disciples where a main contributor to the bible but other spiritual persons allowed the texts to be literate and contain "life lessons" to flesh out the story.


Didn't know texts could be "literate" either. You are teaching me plenty of new things today.
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Posted 2/4/15
Anything religion is false. It was made up to stop people from fearing the unknown. Fear is the #1 weakness of all humans. But creating a religion was the biggest mistake ever. It's all made up crap that modern science has proven wrong. I support science not some stupid imaginary friend called God or whatever the hell people call it.
Posted 2/4/15

jeffcoatstephen wrote:

Anything religion is false. It was made up to stop people from fearing the unknown. Fear is the #1 weakness of all humans. But creating a religion was the biggest mistake ever. It's all made up crap that modern science has proven wrong. I support science not some stupid imaginary friend called God or whatever the hell people call it.


I'm bored. Sources please. I could use an interesting read such as this.
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Once I saw the topic. I knew it was you..... Why the obsession on theology post, especially since you are so impolite with them?
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Posted 2/4/15
Man that article is laughable. What was the point of this post? Seriously? As a religious person I could make better anti-religion posts...try to actually get closer to God and you might find him.
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DesuMaiden wrote:

Just read the articles on this link.

http://godisimaginary.com/


This video is far briefer and conveys the general thrust of the site perfectly fine. There is absolutely no need to dig through 50 writings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUj8hg5CoSw


I don't think God can be disproven. I believe it is POSSIBLE that some sort of higher power exists. But even if there exists a god or gods, Christianity and Islam are still false.


No, God can't be disproven. But here's the catch that the video was hinting at: there's no compelling evidence for God's existence either. So...yeah. It's perfectly fine to go with the null hypothesis and assume non-existence. I haven't, and that's mostly because belief in God provides a stationary object on which to grasp in the turbulent sea that is reality. It's simultaneously an expression of and relief for suffering and fear.


I know what the typical response from a Muslim or Christian will be. They will ignore the link. Or they might start rationalizing why their religion is correct. But no amount of rationalization is going to make a false ideology correct.


Well, I suppose you might consider what I'm about to do something like rationalizing why the religion is correct, but it's not a particularly gnostic way of going about it.


Do I need to show you a picture of why Christianity is an absurdity?


No, not really. I'll admit it is a religion which makes extraordinary claims up front, and that there are logical problems with the narrative it presents. It is at this point that one needs to realize that the narrative is a product of human hands recording things observed by human eyes, and that it makes sense that it would contradict itself since the book which chronicles that narrative is in actuality a collection of writings which were never meant to mesh with one another as a single work in the first place. They weren't written to be chapters in a book, they were written as letters, legislative documents, censuses, and so on to serve as stand alone works. People just gathered all that up and put it together in a compilation later on, and that's what the Bible is.

Even a number of Christians realize this, and that's where you get variants of Christianity where the Bible isn't taken as the inerrant word of God. Hello, by the way.


And belief that God will send you into hell for all eternity if you don't worship is the most heinous and insidious form of thought crime you can imagine. Imagine what it would be like if I said "if you don't worship me, I will kill you". That's just disgusting. I don't believe an all-power and all-good being will force us to worship him. It is basically like this...IF YOU DON'T WORSHIP ME, I WILL PUNISH YOU. That's the most egomaniac or fascist belief possible.


...there are variants of Christianity which have universal reconciliation. Eternal damnation doesn't even exist in them, and in some of these cases Hell isn't even viewed as a place of torment. It's treated as a place of purification. This connects better with the whole "God loved the world enough to sacrifice His son/Himself(?!) for the sake of redeeming all humanity" than an eternal Hell would since it removes the time limit from the salvation that Christ's sacrifice is said to bring and allows for the very real possibility that people in Hell might genuinely change their minds.


Plus, God is a jerk (if he exists at all). The problem of evil proves that it is impossible to have an all-good and all-powerful god. Why doesn't God prevent evil if he is all-good and all-powerful? Clearly, the Christian god doesn't exist because of the problem of evil.


As described. The Christian God wouldn't exist as described. It could still exist, but it would either not be omnipotent or not be omnibenevolent. It needn't be malevolent, but it couldn't be perfectly good and/or all-powerful anymore. That's what the problem of evil really boils down to if one keeps on assuming God.


And don't give me a link to some Christian apologist like William Lane Craig. I will absolutely refute any Christian or Islamic apologism that you can throw at me. .


I'm Blue Oni. Sorry about this. (Ranma 1/2 references!!!!)


Personally I am agnostic. I believe it is possible for a god or gods to exist, but I have no reason to worship them.


That's called agnostic atheism. There's no such thing as just agnosticism. Agnostic is just a descriptor of one's approach to either theism or atheism. An agnostic theist (like me) leaves room (in my case, plenty of it) for the possibility that God doesn't exist in any form, but still assumes its existence in one form or another (I've already explained why I do that). An agnostic atheist (like you) leaves the possibility that some God exists, but assumes that it doesn't.


I believe Christianity and Islam need to thrown in the trash can because these religions believe in infinite population growth. Infinite population growth is not possible and will destroy us as a species.


It bears mention that the passages you referenced to support this claim in another thread (the whole thing about being fruitful and multiplying) is part of a broader Jewish origin myth, and the phrases are said either after God has just finished creating the first humans or after having flooded the Earth and killed everyone and everything except for Noah's family and two of each animal. It's also worth mentioning that passages emphasizing pregnancy as a sign of God's blessing and infertility as a sign of God's anger are a reflection of ancient Jewish society (children were important for providing additional labor, and having a lot of them was good fortune since they tended to die a lot back then). Christians looking back on Biblical passages such as these aren't necessarily reading them literally and out of context, though there are certainly Christians who do so.

Or, put a way I've already put it for you before: Christianity doesn't actually propose infinite population growth to be a desirable thing.


I don't care if you think I'm condescending. I'm not being condescending. I'm being honest. This stuff is nonsense. And it needs to be thrown in the trash can immediately. Here's a nice picture of your precious religions in a trash can.




...you dig that cross out of that trash can right now, stranger on the internet. I MEAN IT!


These religions are just archaic myths and legends that need to discarded instantly. Religion is the opium of the masses as Karl Marx said. It is. It intellectual rubbish. And I believe people who believe in such nonsense lack in critical thinking.


Yeah...see...about that whole Marx thing...he also said that religion was the sigh of the oppressed creature and the soul of soulless conditions in the exact same introduction. That effectively means he was a tad wobbly on whether he considered religion to be "a bad thing". He was critical of religion, and he wasn't vague about his position that it was ultimately unnecessary for people to live happily and freely, but he wasn't one of those guys saying "Throw it in the trash!". That was Lenin, and he was central to the creation of what would become one of the most brutally repressive authoritarian societies the world has ever seen. You might want to seek better company.


I can't say all religions are nonsense. Some religions may actually be true. But I believe certain religions need to tossed in the trash can immediately. Start with a new religion or belief system that actually makes sense. Not a false belief system that endangers the world.


...it doesn't endanger the world, though? I'll give you that Christianity's claims are extraordinary. I'll give you that it doesn't have a lick of scientific evidence to back them up. But presenting it as a danger to the entire world? No. I'm sorry. There are dangerous Christian groups (one of them is causing trouble in Belfast right now), but as a planetary threat Christianity is underwhelmingly tame these days. Maybe one might point to some portions' tendency to think that because the world we live in is set to expire any day now they don't have to take care of its environment as indicative of a problem, but on a global scale? Not really. There are Christians who are perfectly happy to protect the environment. Again, hello.


It is possible this may not change the minds of theists. But I can provide you with countless websites and links that refute these religions. And the evidence for these religions being false is overwhelming. You just need to be open-minded and accept reality, and then you will realize and accept the folly of these religious beliefs.


You haven't really shown me anything I haven't seen before, and honestly I understand the perspective you're viewing this thing from. I've been around this block once or twice, and frankly I've seldom come into conflict with agnostic atheists since I approach with acceptance, respect, and a willingness to accept reasonable points for what they are. I'm a theist, and I'm perfectly aware of how lacking in evidence my theism is.


Religious people are so defensive when you challenge their beliefs because I believe they deep down-inside know this stuff is nonsense. But they believe in it anyways to get a false sense of security and false sense of superiority to others.

Religion relies on censorship to keep people in believing a lie. But the Internet has opened the doors of censorship, and allowed us free access to information. And this free access to information has proven religion to be a bunch of nonsense.


I think I've sufficiently demonstrated that I'm not on the defensive, and also that I haven't been a victim of being locked in a little echo chamber where information which conflicts with my religious beliefs is filtered out.


You can't call me arrogant for not believing in superstitions. I'm enlightened enough to not believe in this nonsense called Islam and Christianity.


Actually, the reason people are calling you arrogant is because of the way you're saying things. You posted a picture of major religious symbols in a garbage can with a caption thanking people for not littering their minds and actually said "Here's a nice picture of your precious religions in a trash can!" That's trolling, Desu. It's the definition of trolling. The only reason I haven't reported it is because it is such silly and childish trolling that it's beneath the moderators' notice. A waste of their time. Grow up, Desu.
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