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Post Reply My problem with gay marriage (as explained to me)
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Posted 2/5/15
A few choice responses in the first two pages brought up so much on this topic. I am very excited that this is something we're all ready to talk about, and pretty much everybody agrees gay marriage is fine, not everybody agrees we should push for it. Welcome to open, fearless dialogue.

First, the my-original-mindset reiterated in the best possible way.


Shadis_Zeal wrote:

No, I don't think not supporting gay marriage is discrimination if you don't believe in marriage at all for anyone straight or otherwise, its absurd and defensive on their part.

I don't like my hand being forced by a gay rights group to advocate for them with the assumption that if I'm religious that I'm somehow because my religion and beliefs I'm personally out to get them or oppressing their happiness or against them when I don't care.

Its really not going to make me care more to play a guilt trip or troll my religion.

Not condoning marriage in general has nothing to do with you being gay unless its just about gay marriage.

For this reason I understand OP..


Haha, I never personally felt guilted or trolled, because I know I'm not actually against this. But I agree with a friend that I should at least be able to vocally support gay marriage whenever it comes up, and I shouldn't necessarily just leave it alone.

I sense some kind of common ground here, could it be as simple as anime?

Should I support anime because I like a few animes while I think other animes are terrible? I'm with Miyazaki on this one, I'm still paying premium membership because I can afford it, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, Japanese entertainment available globally is just as important as same-sex marriage being available nationwide in the US. It's not that I'm gonna picket over it, but damn if I won't do everything I can to get it.


solorflare99 wrote:

Short Answer: To deny a group of people a right, is a way of expressing that those people are less.

It's like denying a race the right to marriage.


And then there's the response, Club Think vs Reality vs Who Even Wants to be in That Club?


Sir_jamesalot wrote:

What about the right to refuse service?


Hoodoggy, that's where this gets really good.

But I've also noticed a personally horrifying general apathy towards supporting individualism.


Shishiku wrote:

Everyone's time is limited, to say we should all live our lives attempting to "fix" something outside our immediate control is ridiculous. I have far better things to do with my life that would benefit me and my personal beliefs then to worry about gay marriage; if it pops up in my state to vote, or sign a petition to vote it for consideration, damn right id be all on it, but until then...ehh not my problem.



Keep going everybody, I'm really trying to keep up. But you've all got me thinking, I couldn't wait to read the third and fourth pages before letting you guys know you're doing everything right even if we're not reaching the same exact conclusion.
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Posted 2/5/15 , edited 2/5/15

Shadis_Zeal wrote:

Not picketing but doing everything you can is about like contradicting oneself. In my earlier post I mentioned civil unions. marriage is evil to me, but that's me. I prefer to avoid messing with religious institutions like marriage preferring to be rid of it, thats just me.


What you're missing is the adoption of a word to broader meanings. Anime is available to me.

Tactless literally means you can't keep up with your sense of touch. It metaphorically means you don't understand other peoples' emotional touchiness. I'm guilty and generally unashamed, maybe proud, I don't know, I don't understand it.

I said in my original post that I don't disagree with the pastors who say marriage is important for people who truly believe in something. But that doesn't mean gay people don't truly believe in their religions.

For this to be a federal/state government issue is ridiculous and sad. For states to treat unions differently based on sexual orientation is shameful. Our states, whether we like it or not, represent us. And if they're f*ing up, it's up to us to say "They don't represent me, they are f*ing up."

This may not be as pressing an issue where you're from, but in Nebraska, I'm finally fed up with it. In America, I'm fed up with it. I don't have to picket over anime, I've got it, I was trying to reach out. The whole point of this is I am now willing to picket for gay rights because they are the same as human rights, and more important than entertainment.
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Posted 2/5/15 , edited 2/5/15

cpdion wrote:


Morbidhanson wrote:

I absolutely despise when someone claims something along the lines of "you are either for or against something." That is a twisted and unhealthily-absolute way of thinking that leaves no diplomatic middle ground and creates an awful lot of enemies. The middle grey zone is often much more vast than the extreme lefts and rights. Ignoring it is ridiculous, like saying you understand a book by only reading the first word of every sentence. I have almost never been convinced by any point being driven across to me using this tactic. If anything, it tends to make me not want to agree with the person telling me that. People who sincerely believe that tend to be overbearing and inflexible, IMO. They see only what they wish to and discard everything else.

Controversial issues are controversial for a reason. If they were truly so easy to decide for everyone, they would not be controversial. It bothers me whenever a person is so confident and self-assured they can't understand the position of the other side at all. Someone who truly understands the issue is nearly always affected by a healthy amount of indecisiveness or uncertainty. This isn't because they aren't capable of thinking and deciding. It is because they can see the issue from both sides. Being an extreme left or extreme right does little good in the long run. People only talk like that because they don't want to tackle the complex grey area issues or don't care to understand them. It is one of the reasons I no longer attend church meetings.

Believing in "letting people do as they may" is potentially a result of several different ways of approaching and analyzing the issue. A person can come to believe that through many very different thought processes. To consider them all invalid unless they are self-assuredly against or for something is foolish and comes off as arrogant. You're not a bad person for saying that you don't fully understand (or are too overwhelmed by the complexity of the issues) and aren't comfortable committing to either side, and you are not a bad person for not acting when you have no duty to act.

No elaborate ceremony is really required for a legal marriage, it's just that people tend to want to celebrate such an important event with a big gathering.

You are free to support a cause if it calls out to you and something within you makes it so that you feel obligated to act. You have no "problem with gay marriage" at all. You're not committing a crime if you aren't actively doing something in support of what you believe. If you were legally and morally obligated to act, you'd be a criminal every minute of every day. People aren't capable of being activists for everything they ever support or side with, nor should they be expected to be. You help out because you wish to provide help, not because you wish to be bound to the cause. Simply not acting does not make the existence of your opinion vanish, although people can pretend that it does all they want. You'll always encounter people who don't think the way you do, who don't agree that what you're doing or not doing is okay. That's just how the chaotic world is.



HOLY CRAP! Did you just take my brain and my thoughts and write it all out? because I really agree with you to the point where I just wanna come through the screen and hug you! and I really don't like hugs!

Anyway my thoughts are like I don't really care. That's probably cause I'm a bit indecisive. The gay rights movement just turned into a big joke when a lot of them just started talking about people's beliefs and crap. It really bothers me when an atheist keeps telling you that you believe in some stupid fairy tale or that you are blinded and stupid because of your religion. I feel like they should stfu and try to speak to people in a calm way. Try to get them to understand their side and why they believe they should have gay marriage. You think some religious old person freak is going to understand you and want to support if you talk about their beliefs? Nah. I know some gay and etc. don't do that, but the people who do make them all look bad. It's like with religious people. A lot of people think they force their beliefs on everyone when every religious person doesn't do that. If I could I would vote for gay marriage because why not? The country has better and bigger things to worry about. Just let them be. In a way it bothers me because I'm all religious and crap, but they deserve marriage too I guess. I try not to be biased, but sometimes I am...soo...yeah...




Thanks, haha.

I'm for gay marriage as well, since it doesn't make any sense why gay two people who love each other can't get married, yet two straight people doing it for money can, since "sanctity of marriage" BS. I'm not an activist either. I'm in law school. Aint nobody got time for that right now.

However, although I'm happy that people are making a move to promote equality, the gays do occasionally get out of hand. For one thing, a lot of them now think it's okay to flaunt their sexuality in public and act like idiots. That's not okay whether you're straight or gay. Nobody wants to see that so they need to act respectfully toward others in public spaces, especially if they want their opposition to take them seriously.
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Posted 2/9/15 , edited 2/9/15

Morbidhanson wrote:


cpdion wrote:


Morbidhanson wrote:

I absolutely despise when someone claims something along the lines of "you are either for or against something." That is a twisted and unhealthily-absolute way of thinking that leaves no diplomatic middle ground and creates an awful lot of enemies. The middle grey zone is often much more vast than the extreme lefts and rights. Ignoring it is ridiculous, like saying you understand a book by only reading the first word of every sentence. I have almost never been convinced by any point being driven across to me using this tactic. If anything, it tends to make me not want to agree with the person telling me that. People who sincerely believe that tend to be overbearing and inflexible, IMO. They see only what they wish to and discard everything else.

Controversial issues are controversial for a reason. If they were truly so easy to decide for everyone, they would not be controversial. It bothers me whenever a person is so confident and self-assured they can't understand the position of the other side at all. Someone who truly understands the issue is nearly always affected by a healthy amount of indecisiveness or uncertainty. This isn't because they aren't capable of thinking and deciding. It is because they can see the issue from both sides. Being an extreme left or extreme right does little good in the long run. People only talk like that because they don't want to tackle the complex grey area issues or don't care to understand them. It is one of the reasons I no longer attend church meetings.

Believing in "letting people do as they may" is potentially a result of several different ways of approaching and analyzing the issue. A person can come to believe that through many very different thought processes. To consider them all invalid unless they are self-assuredly against or for something is foolish and comes off as arrogant. You're not a bad person for saying that you don't fully understand (or are too overwhelmed by the complexity of the issues) and aren't comfortable committing to either side, and you are not a bad person for not acting when you have no duty to act.

No elaborate ceremony is really required for a legal marriage, it's just that people tend to want to celebrate such an important event with a big gathering.

You are free to support a cause if it calls out to you and something within you makes it so that you feel obligated to act. You have no "problem with gay marriage" at all. You're not committing a crime if you aren't actively doing something in support of what you believe. If you were legally and morally obligated to act, you'd be a criminal every minute of every day. People aren't capable of being activists for everything they ever support or side with, nor should they be expected to be. You help out because you wish to provide help, not because you wish to be bound to the cause. Simply not acting does not make the existence of your opinion vanish, although people can pretend that it does all they want. You'll always encounter people who don't think the way you do, who don't agree that what you're doing or not doing is okay. That's just how the chaotic world is.



HOLY CRAP! Did you just take my brain and my thoughts and write it all out? because I really agree with you to the point where I just wanna come through the screen and hug you! and I really don't like hugs!

Anyway my thoughts are like I don't really care. That's probably cause I'm a bit indecisive. The gay rights movement just turned into a big joke when a lot of them just started talking about people's beliefs and crap. It really bothers me when an atheist keeps telling you that you believe in some stupid fairy tale or that you are blinded and stupid because of your religion. I feel like they should stfu and try to speak to people in a calm way. Try to get them to understand their side and why they believe they should have gay marriage. You think some religious old person freak is going to understand you and want to support if you talk about their beliefs? Nah. I know some gay and etc. don't do that, but the people who do make them all look bad. It's like with religious people. A lot of people think they force their beliefs on everyone when every religious person doesn't do that. If I could I would vote for gay marriage because why not? The country has better and bigger things to worry about. Just let them be. In a way it bothers me because I'm all religious and crap, but they deserve marriage too I guess. I try not to be biased, but sometimes I am...soo...yeah...




Thanks, haha.

I'm for gay marriage as well, since it doesn't make any sense why gay two people who love each other can't get married, yet two straight people doing it for money can, since "sanctity of marriage" BS. I'm not an activist either. I'm in law school. Aint nobody got time for that right now.

However, although I'm happy that people are making a move to promote equality, the gays do occasionally get out of hand. For one thing, a lot of them now think it's okay to flaunt their sexuality in public and act like idiots. That's not okay whether you're straight or gay. Nobody wants to see that so they need to act respectfully toward others in public spaces, especially if they want their opposition to take them seriously.


I would unfortunately agree with you, if I didn't think it was important to be able to act like an idiot.

I'm all for homosexuality and acting up, get a drag competition going, sure.

I think a beauty pageant is a bunch of people acting like idiots. Now how can I reconcile that with my idea that a drag competition is for idiots, but it's important to be who you are even if it offends sensibilities?

The point is, it's impossible, I will never understand ether event, why shouldn't I stand up to people who defend one or the other? Or both?

I don't have to give up my personal beliefs to support good things. Maybe they're idiots, but am I so smart in the end?
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Posted 2/9/15 , edited 2/17/15
I don't care about straight marriage. I don't actively support straight marriage. So why care? Marriage should just stop existing.
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Posted 2/9/15

galaxiias wrote:

I don't care about straight marriage. I don't actively support straight marriage. So why care? Marriage should just stop existing.


MRAs have taken that hilarious point and turned it into a motto.

You don't have anything to worry about. Your fear of straight marriage will never affect you in a legal or social manner.

Relax.

Gay marriage, that's where the whole marriage chart takes a bad slide towards "outliers."

We're legally encouraging something that, on the majority, we don't agree with.

Support gay marriage, it's basic secular humanism. Don't you want pot legalized?
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Posted 2/9/15 , edited 2/17/15
i firmly believe gay, lesbian, trans gender and poligimists all have the same right to screw their lives up and be as miserable as heterosexual couples by getting married. why should straight monogamous men be the only ones getting screwed over lmao
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Posted 2/10/15


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Posted 2/10/15 , edited 2/10/15
Such a complicated topic.

The whole world revolves around all sorts of problems with the same underlying issues. I can do this, because I'm like this. You can't do this, because you're like that.

We've seen the problem with race, gender, sexual preferences, etc, etc. Where do we draw the line? What's acceptable, and what's not? In the end, who makes that decision, and why them? What gives them that special right?

We have "votes" and we go by the majority, like it'll somehow be a solution to all these problems, but then we're back to square one. Oh, you're a part of the minority? Sorry, guess your opinion doesn't count.

It's very difficult to consider such long-standing problems that are rooted in our cultures, societies and religions. More often than not, you consider the issue from an outsiders point of view because that's all you can do without intimate knowledge of such problems.\\

My older brother came out when he was about 14, I would have been 11. Not only did I become much more aware of how much he was harrassed and bullied, but unfortunately, some of it fell on me too. I had a senior 4 years older than me try to break my arm because I told him I wasn't ashamed of my brother. Think about that. A 15 year old boy threatening to break the arm of an 11 year old girl, because her brother is gay.

Even though I have a bit more of an insider's point of view on the matter, admittedly, when it comes to gay marriage, I still think "people should do what they want." Clearly, that isn't an answer or a solution of any kind, it's merely an opinion. I don't even think highly of marriage in the first place (my family doesn't practice religion, though I was baptised as Roman Catholic).

Obviously, the issue isn't quite as simple as that. People can't always do what they want. People can be endangered simply for having different opinions and tastes. Laws vary per country, per province/state, sometimes even by municipality. Realistically speaking, we'll never have a society that accepts everything and everyone, as wonderful as that would be. I don't think this is necessarily a situation that calls for a right or wrong answer. It's more a situation of we accept you vs. we don't accept you.

In general, I think we should just support others' right to happiness. Do we really have to involve ourselves so deeply in the choices of others? Does someone else's sexual preference or choice in a life partner REALLY affect you that much? In your daily life? Or even at all?

"Oh, sorry, you can't hold hands in my store cause you're both men." But that hetero couple over there, yah, no problem. Ahh, hypocrites.

You know, as human beings, we're so fixated on our differences - I get it... fear the unknown, question the incomprehensible... but guess what, at the end of the day, we're all just human. We will always have differences. We come from different familes, neighborhoods, schools. Different religions and cultures and countries. We will NEVER understand each other unless we're open minded and receptive to the possibility that MAYBE not everyone is the same (surprise, surprise).

Despite our differences, aren't we sort of all the same? We have feelings, and we respond to them. We can't help our emotions. But, because they like the same sex, they're supposed to supress those feelings? Yah fucking right. So again, I reiterate my earlier questions. Where do we draw the line? What's acceptable, and what's not? In the end, who makes that decision, and why them? What gives them that special right?

You know, for years I watched my brother fight with his own feelings. Being told it was wrong, unnatural, forbidden, etc... He finally came to terms with himself as an adult, loving himself and being proud of who he is. I'd take on anyone who tried to tell me he doesn't have the right to be happy with the one he loves.
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Posted 2/10/15
If your against gay marriage, whats the difference? Same sex couples already

1.)Have sex
2.)Live together
3.)Adopt children

If they can or can't get married,does it really change anything?

The only thing I'm against is gay couples trying to force pastors who don't approve of it to hold the ceremony. If he is against it as is his religious teachings, why force his hand?Find one who will, their are plenty of them.
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Posted 2/10/15
I have no problem with gay marriage. To each their own.
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There is also a criminal justice element to the homosexual marriage debate that is neglected. For example up until recently it was not considered rape if a homosexual male raped a homosexual male, or a heterosexual female raped a heterosexual male. In legal diction rape can only occur if a male forces with a threat or violence a female to have sex ( any position any way) with him. Now the diction of the laws have to be changed which is why the word sexual assault (so far as I know) is used instead of rape in legal terms.
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I'm more into the right to pursuit happiness, without violating somebody's else rights.

I don't like religion, especially Christianity and derivatives of it, butting on someone's decision. Who made Christianity the main religion? None. Religion should serve as a peace of mind, like it's a yoga.You can pray all you want but don't expect everything be handed to you. Bitch, you better work. You can't always wear those poncho pajamas to clean a dirty toilet without leaving unscathed.

I don't like the idea where you pray more for charity but at the same time you dictate how people should live.
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I can definitely empathize with the OP's aversion to the "with us or against us" mentality that a lot of folks on the pro-LGBT marriage side of the debate have. And like...sure, we can't force you to care about something that you really don't care about. But on the other hand, this issue is very important to quite a lot of people, and they have very good reasons to care so much...and that is something that deserves respect.

So even if you personally aren't invested in the issue, you have to be very careful to treat those who are with that respect, because if you don't, you are, albeit unintentionally, trivializing a struggle that for them is a huge deal. It's rough being LGBT in the US, and they have to deal with a lot of bullshit that straight folk don't have to worry about. Some of that bullshit is just kinda annoying, but some of it is downright tragic.
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Posted 2/10/15 , edited 2/14/15
As my husband says: "Hey, I'm all for gay marriage! Why should gays and lesbians be protected from the depredations of divorce lawyers?"

On a slightly more serious note, there is no good reason to deny the right to a civil marriage to same-sex couples. Most of the whining and complaining and outrage I hear in opposition to such unions comes from right-wing religious sorts, who seem to think their job is to impose a theocracy on the rest of us, with their interpretation of the Bible as the template for such. I shall hereafter refer to them as the American Taliban. They cannot come up with a non-religious argument as to why a) same-sex couples should not be allowed the same civil privileges as their straight counterparts and b) come up with any compelling evidence that granting marriage rights harms heterosexual marriage. Whether you think marriage as an institution has any value in the modern world is beside the point; civil marriage comes with a set of benefits: the right to make joint decisions regarding health care, retirement benefits, end-of-life decisions, child-care and custody and inheritance. Please explain to me, for those who do not support extending recognition and rights to same-sex couples, how granting these will harm 'straight' unions? The answer is: they won't. Straights will still have the same marriages they had yesterday, with the same level of societal dignity that they had before the legalization of same-sex marriage. The only people that can screw up a straight marriage are the people participating in it.

Want to know what the real threats to straight marriage are? Try poverty, job loss, addiction, health problems and a lack of communication. Why aren't churches trying to address these issues, instead of blaming the gays? Because blaming the gays is easier than getting off their butts and tackling real problems.

Now, do I think houses of worship that don't sanction same-sex marriages should have to perform those ceremonies? No, but let's be real here for a second. One doesn't obtain the rights to collect one's spouse's Social Security benefits because a priest or a rabbi or an imam or a minister (pick your favorite religious officiant and insert their title here) conducted a ceremony. The truth is that every couple that wants to marry has to obtain a state-issued marriage certificate. If you don't have that piece of paper, it doesn't matter how many religious ceremonies you endure; hospitals, government offices, employers, insurers and a host of other entities won't consider you married without it. Moreover, most of the gay and lesbian couples I know wouldn't bother asking the Catholic Church or The Southern Baptists to sanction their union. They'd rather attend a church or a synagogue or a pagan circle that welcomes them. The Federal government does not recognize religious marriages. They recognize marriages registered with the individual states and accompanied by a civil marriage certificate. What a couple chooses to do on the religious and spiritual side of things is not the state's business. It is also not a religion's business if a couple chooses to forgo any sort of ceremony and gets a state-issued marriage certificate, signed at the courthouse by the clerk. In Colorado, all you need is the clerk's signature and the signatures of the two seeking the certificate, along with two witnesses. That's it. Once that's done, the certificate is good. Take it back to the courthouse, have a copy filed and you're married in the eyes of the law.

Lastly, all of the ranting and raving on the right about same-sex marriage somehow demeaning straight marriage ignores everything that the straights themselves have done to undermine the institution. Let's see... let me pull out my list of all of the crappy things that straight couples can do or have done to one another while married: adultery, abandonment, divorce, bigamy, emotional and physical abuse, marital rape, neglect, subjecting a spouse and/or children to the fallout from mental illness and substance abuse and the always present danger that a disgruntled spouse will decide to kill his (and the person doing the killing is usually a male) spouse when she tries to leave. Yes, let's have a BIG round of applause for the straights and how WELL they've cared for marriage as a social and civil institution. *slow, sarcastic clap* Gays and lesbians have nowhere to take marriage but upwards, in my opinion. They'll probably treat the right to marry with much more dignity than the straight community does, because they had to fight for that right. Straights take marriage and the benefits it bestows for granted.
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