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Daily reminder that your life revolves around consuming fossil fuels.
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Posted 2/16/15 , edited 2/16/15
I can't even be bothered to argue this doomsday prediction anymore. Desu, have you forgotten that we've already danced this dance? You hop from mineral to mineral, from energy source to energy source, and from technology to technology, saying "HERE! LOOK AT THIS ONE! SURELY IT CAN'T BE USED EFFICIENTLY ENOUGH, RECYCLED, REUSED, OR REPLACED? MALTHUSIANISM MAKES SENSE NOW, RIGHT? RIIIGHT?"

Let me put this into simple terms for you: we're not going to witness the utter collapse of industrial civilization in the next 20 years. You used to predict it would be within the century, and now it's just 20 years. The EIA has already said that there's enough crude oil to meet global demand for at least 25, and frankly that's assuming no further advances in extraction methods are made and no more discovery takes place. There are problems in the energy industry. There are problems in the oil industry. You're citing one of them, overconsumption. That is not, however, a civilization condemning problem. We're currently set up for oil, but we can and (if oil ran out) would set up for something else, and I don't care how unlikely you think it is that we'd be able to.


Nobodyofimportance wrote:

Apparently there were some real concerns there.
The problem was that way back when, when memory was super expensive, they only used two characters for a date, 19[xx]. So, if you're in year [99] and the year increments by 1, suddenly you're in year [00]. And apparently that can cause some problems.

I'm still wondering why farming fails with oil though. Like, we could pretty easily make giant harvesting tanks of Algea and fish in the middle of the ocean if we need to.


Oh, yes. There were real concerns, and some systems had very serious problems that needed to be upgraded around. It was nowhere near the civilization ending disaster we were told it would be by the doomsayers, however.
Posted 2/16/15
Just a daily reminder this isn't the UN, so this "global discussions" dont do much here

It's good you have a cause, but....
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Posted 2/16/15
-We need Oil
-We are replacing oil slowly
-Corps wont do anything to change it

+Water still more important
+Oil is cheap, cheaper than ethanol which runs on food
+At least we have lead less oil now at day yet we always lack of oil
+Give us a point of interest in globalization

8/10 Would Gulf War again
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Posted 2/16/15 , edited 2/16/15
We all know though this no real progress will be made as long as oil companies have a say. Because that means less money for their bloated pockets. We'll just inch along with slightly better efficiency so that companies can pretend they totally aren't getting in the way of progress.


That being said if we ever do reach the point of nearly running out then those oil companies will see their profits drying up and put everything they've got into developing and patenting some alternative assuming they don't have it lined up already.

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21 / M / Utopia
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Posted 2/16/15

BlueOni wrote:

Everyone, rend the clothing from your bodies and flee to the forests as quickly as your legs will carry you! Ever since that scourge we call petroleum was first extracted from the ground we as a species lost sight of our true purpose in life: to feed stronger, faster, dumber animals! Lay down your firearms, abandon your houses, and never again seek to improve your lives with that wretched thing we call technology! We are but beasts, and so must we live!


this!
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26 / M / Waterloo, Ontario
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Posted 2/16/15

evilotakuneko wrote:


DesuMaiden wrote:

First of all, when food shortages start to happen, you will realize that I was right the whole time. Modern civilization is dependent upon oil. There are currently no substitutes to oil. And we will likely not find any substitutes for oil. When modern civilization collapses by 2030 to 2040 (from oil shortages), you will realize everything I said was right.


So you're predicting not just peak oil as early as 2030, but the collapse of civilization?

Seriously?

And you're basing all of this off of a book, written by a lawyer, whose predictions have already failed, and a paper (which cites heavily from the same) written by a geologist with questionable political biases. Moreover as has been pointed out, all the doom and gloom scenarios are predicated upon a technological standstill that just won't happen. Market, political, and social pressures will see to that.

I haven't refuted any of your arguments because you haven't made any worth refuting. Yes, peak oil is a thing that will happen. No, it has not happened yet, and no, it's not going to be some apocalyptic nightmare when it does.

You're not very good at the whole skeptic thing, reading a couple of articles and swallowing them hook, line, and sinker like that.


Technology is not some magical force that can solve all of humanity's problems. First of all, there are currently zero suitable substitutes for oil. And you have not proposed a single thing that can replace oil. All you saying is "hurr durr technology is going to save the day". Give me a break. I've done my research, and I know none of the current alternatives to oil will work. Don't say "ethanol is going to save the day". Ethanol is a complete joke.

First of all, just because the predictions by Matt Savinar haven't happened yet, doesn't mean they will not happen. What he is saying is going to happen over the next couple of decades. Your ignorance and wishful thinking will not overturn the laws of thermodynamics.

I already mentioned why electric cars will not work. I already mentioned why biofuels will not work. It is very unlikely we will magically invent something to replace oil.

When food shortages start to happen, don't say I didn't warn you. The modern food system is reliant on fossil fuels. Take the fossil fuels away, and modern agriculture will collapse. When supermarket shelves start to become empty of food, don't say I didn't warn you. It is on the way. In case if you haven't noticed food has been becoming more expensive during the past decade, and this is the result.of oil prices going up. Modern food production and transportation is reliant on oil. Take the oil away, and supermarket shelves will become empty of food.

The naive belief that business as usual can continue indefinitely will sure bite you in the ass when oil becomes too scarce and you realize that there is nothing to replace the edifice built by it. Previous civilizations like the Roman, Mayan, Anasazi and Easter Island collapsed. I bet you there were people in their societies that warned others of the upcoming collapse. People ignored those warnings, but that didn't prevent those previous civilizations from collapsing. Study some history. Previous civilizations have collapsed before, and our current civilization isn't any less impervious to collapse.

When you find out that an overwhelming life-threatening catastrophe (like the Titanic got hit by an ice berg, and it is about to sink) is about to happen and you tell other people about it, you will encounter three types of people

1) People who are basically deer in the head light. They are too paralyzed in fear to do anything.
2) People who are acknowledge the danger, and are interested in learning how to build life boats to survive the catastrophe.
3) People who deny that the Titanic is sinkable. These people say "the Titanic is unsinkable. And we are going back to the bar to have another drink. And you doomsayers can take a hike"

If you know how to build life boats, which group of people are you going to help? Clearly, it is only worth helping group 2. Clearly, you are a part of group 3. You go by the arrogant and unfounded assumption that "our modern way of life can continue indefinitely. The doomsayers can take a hike". Well, that's too bad for you. When food shortages happen in the future, don't say I didn't warn you.
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Posted 2/16/15

haikinka wrote:

Can't we just start compressing the corpses of the billions of dead humans buried underground to produce man made oil or something.

Googled around, don't see why not. Pretty sure I just solved the world's oil crisis. Thank me later.


So that's what MPG stands for.. my sedan gets about 27 Miles Per Grandma.
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Posted 2/16/15

Nobodyofimportance wrote:

Apparently there were some real concerns there.
The problem was that way back when, when memory was super expensive, they only used two characters for a date, 19[xx]. So, if you're in year [99] and the year increments by 1, suddenly you're in year [00]. And apparently that can cause some problems.

I'm still wondering why farming fails with oil though. Like, we could pretty easily make giant harvesting tanks of Algea and fish in the middle of the ocean if we need to.



Where did I miss this!?!?!?!?!?

Honestly, I'm not sure how oil gets processed into fertilizers. Not saying it's not done, just that I have no clue how.

As far as I know, petroleum is mostly hydrocarbons, which means they're primarily complex chains of carbon and hydrogen. Since it's sourced from ancient dead living organisms, my guess is there MIGHT be nitrogen, phosphorous, and potassium, but that's a stretch and my guess would be that they're trace elements at best in the context of petrochemicals.. Plants produce a variety of carbon/hydrogen/oxygen chains such as those of sugar and starch, but that's through the process of photosynthesis and relies on the "OMFG!!!" amounts of carbon dioxide and water already present on the surface and in the atmosphere. That's why you can't even really FIND information on quantities needed or fertilizers for these elements.

Nitrogen, phosphorous, and potassium are used to a significantly lesser extent, and other elements and minerals are present in even smaller amounts. Here's an image to illustrate just how little of these elements you need:


95% of your average plant's biomass comes from water and air....That nitrogen that's oh so important, makes up about 2% of its mass.

(and here's a googled article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/04/07/were-not-going-to-run-out-of-oil-based-fertilizer/)

(and all this led me to a nice series of lecture I'll probably start reading: http://departments.agri.huji.ac.il/plantscience/topics_irrigation/uzifert/4thmeet.htm )

As for growing fish and algae, we don't really have to for fertilizers either. The fertilizers can easily come from the byproducts of our existent industries and the growing problem of our waste. A large portion of our trash is in fact food waste and, gross as it sounds, our poop and our pee. The former already has plans beginning to form and implemented in certain areas to be composted and turned into fertilizers (whether the communities focusing on municipal composting realize it's a source of fuel and fertilizer is up for debate. They're mainly concerned with dealing with growing landfills.... Oh yeah. Methane and heat are given off by composting and can be captured and used as fuel or to generate electricity. I'm sure it can't be ridiculously hard to capture methane also from the waste treatment facilities as well.)

When it comes to your sewage, things are far more complicated, mainly due to the possibility of not being fully composted and harboring diseases and microbial life as well as parasites particular to animals that eat meat, but it's not a completely unfeasible plan at some date. (in fact illustrating this is the fact that the recent e.coli problems that have been linked to vegetables in the supermarket is that they have been often traced to companies that use human manures as a fertilizer... So yeah.. even if you eat your veggies, you're still possibly eating your own poop.)

We also are farming fish for commercial sales (tilapia and salmon are the biggest two, and tilapia is FANTASTIC for hydroponics in a system that also grows veggies. You can read something about it here: http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ista/ista6/ista6web/pdf/676.pdf

Algae, on the other hand, is hugely important to the oxygen in our atmosphere. We really need to take care of of existing ocean's aquatic ecosystem if for nothing else than making sure that there still... ya know.. air to breathe. But, algae can have a fantastic purpose in decomposing materials and creating fuel: http://energy.gov/eere/videos/energy-101-algae-fuel

(here's another interesting article. Apparently the processis actually fuel that's carbon NEGATIVE: http://cleantechnica.com/2014/08/20/alabama-gets-first-world-carbon-negative-algae-biofuel/

Sorry, just had to put in my two cents.. >.>
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Posted 2/16/15
At least I know that Mods exist since they deleted my post.
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Posted 2/16/15

DesuMaiden wrote:
SNIP OF JUSTICE!



You're quite good at making strawmen aren't you. Not to mention repeating yourself and failing to address anything said by those who disagree with you, while simultaneously attacking them for having such audacity and failing to suggest any possible solution to the problems you brought up for discussion.

You're not very good at this discussion thing.
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Posted 2/16/15
Actually, this article does seem to point to the lack of enough fertilizers for feeding the growing population so you may enjoy it, but it doesn't really talk of getting nitrogen, phosphorous, and potassium from petroleum based products

http://departments.agri.huji.ac.il/plantscience/topics_irrigation/uzifert/1stmeet.htm
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31 / M / Minnesota, USA
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Posted 2/16/15 , edited 2/16/15
And I care because......?
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Posted 2/16/15
Tomatoes. Tomatoes are the answer.
I'm serious.
Just google "tomatoes as renewable source of energy and viable alternative to fossil fuels" and you'll be amazed
Dragon
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Posted 2/16/15
Since http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-888857/any-doomers-or-malthusians-on-this-forum is referencing the same items as the opening post here, I'm closing this one as an older dupe.
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