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Post Reply Gods Will and Free Will
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Posted 2/3/08 , edited 4/18/08
Gah I made a new thread, but you made one already xD



Nowhere in the Bible is the term "omniscient" used in the Bible. Sure the phrase "all knowing" is used countless number of times, but let's take a look at a couple of verses with "all knowing" in it.

In John 16:30, the disciples tell Jesus that "we can see that you know all things". In the Greek translation, the word pas is used to describe "all knowing". In Matthew 17:11, Jesus says "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things." The same Greek word pas is used. Does this mean that Elijah will come and restore a fallen leaf from a tree, or that he will bring back the Earth to the way it was thousands of years ago? No, as far as we can see in the Bible and throughout history, that hasn't happened. I believe that just as there is a limitation to restoring all things, there is a "limitation" to what God's knowledge of the future is. When they say all knowing, I believe they mean to say that He is wise, He knows what's best for us, He knows everything about us at the current moment. But to say that He knows our future, contradicts to the free will that He gave us.

If God was omniscient to the point that He knew whether or not I was going to heaven or hell, what's the point of me being Christian. What's the point of having a relationship with Him. The Bible claims that He longs us to be with Him, yet if our lives are already destined to go to hell, why should we? This is the main point; grace is given to us because of the wrong choices we made. The blood of Jesus was shed because of our sins and transgressions, that we CHOSE to make. If we're destined to go to heaven, what's the point of grace? We as Christians believe that "it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and this not from yourself; it is the gift of God. (Ephesians 2:8)"

As for God being evil, why would he give us the gift of healing? To kill people? Rather it is to bless people...


Hope that makes sense xD
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Posted 2/3/08 , edited 4/18/08
Oh you said that all monotheistic religions claim to believe in predestination. That's not necessarily true. Calvinists believe in predestination to the point where every word I type is the will of God. Every time I breathe is the will of God. Of course, some Christians also believe that we're all predestined to go to hell or heaven...which really doesn't make sense if you think about it.



How does he make prophecies if he is not all knowing? All knowing means knowing all not being wise. It is not an ambiguous term open for interpretation. As stated above if god is all powerful and knows all free will is an illusion.

"Prophecy is not future telling, fortune telling, or speaking in King James English. Prophecy is actually fairly simple-- it is hearing from God and expressing God's words to others. The greatest prophets today don't speak in cryptic words; they speak in plain words. The greatest prophecies are not what God is going to do years from now; they are what God is doing and what He requires from His people today."

As I said before, the Greek word "pas" is being used here. Which has the same meaning when used in Matthew and John. Let me give you more examples:

(Mat 2:3 KJV) When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

Did every person in Jerusalem hear Christ and was everyone troubled?

(Mat 3:5 KJV) Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

(Mark 1:5 KJV) And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Did everyone in Judaea and all the surrounding region come out to see John the Baptist and then get baptized?

(Mat 10:22 KJV) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Does this all include Christians?

(Mat 25:31 KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

(1 Tim 5:21 KJV) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Here we see that all the holy angels are the elect angels of God!

(Mark 1:37 KJV) And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee.

(Rom 3:11 KJV) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Does everyone seek Jesus? Better Question does anyone seek Him?

(Rom 5:18 KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Is The second "all" equal in meaning to the first "all"?

(Mark 9:23 KJV) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

If I believe I can I fly, should I jump off a building?

(Mark 13:23 KJV) But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Did Christ tell us when He is returning?

(Luke 2:1 KJV) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Did the Inca's, the Chinese, the American Indians have to pay a tax too?

(Luke 2:10 KJV) And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Does the unbeliever rejoice in Christ or do they celebrate Santa Claus?


Magnus, you can choose to be with or without God. That's your choice. You've already stated it, and so have I; we make our own choices. However, I choose with my own free will to follow God's will. God's will is definitely absolute, but that doesn't mean everyone will follow. It is up to Christians, out of their own will, to submit to God. You said in your first post that others told you that God has a plan for you. True, God has a plan for all of us. It's up to you to follow that or decide to stray. Hopefully, you won't think that God's will for all of us is to die by murder or something like that.


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Posted 2/4/08 , edited 4/18/08
God has a plan for those who are called according to his purpose. He knows who and who will not, to the end, be saved, which he has hinted at revelation. But he never lets it be known, not even to his children, because sometimes when we try to discern for ourselves, we ended up passing the wrong judgement call. Some will get saved late, some earlier. It's not our job to make sure people get saved, but we should extend love and help to all, regardless.

It doesn't mean that God's plan means it will act out, no matter what. He knows how we will react, and even if we do not listen to Him, he's the only one who can know 30 years down the road whether you'll allow him to guide you or not. His plans are always there, it's just that it's not everybody who allows it to happen to them. Nobody can decipher the complexity of God's thoughts, but he makes his point sooner or later if you will just keep believing.
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Posted 2/4/08 , edited 4/18/08

Faeleia wrote:
Nobody can decipher the complexity of God's thoughts, but he makes his point sooner or later if you will just keep believing.


That's true. I still have trouble understanding everything, and there are some things that we will never figure out. We just have to look forward to getting to heaven, and then we'll know everything xD
Posted 2/4/08 , edited 4/18/08
Well technically if God imposes his will on us then we cannot possibly have true free will. If we follow the ten commandments for example, we do not have free will. We are living a life laid out for us. Hence atheists who do not follow a God have more free will than those who believe in God, there are fewer 'don'ts' to an atheist. (while true free will does not exist thanks to the gov) Also I have more fun cos I follow my wants and desires and not Jesus's mission.
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Posted 2/4/08 , edited 4/18/08
Ahh good point
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Well technically if God imposes his will on us then we cannot possibly have true free will. If we follow the ten commandments for example, we do not have free will. We are living a life laid out for us. Hence atheists who do not follow a God have more free will than those who believe in God, there are fewer 'don'ts' to an atheist. (while true free will does not exist thanks to the gov) Also I have more fun cos I follow my wants and desires and not Jesus's mission.


but isn't it Christian's "free will" to follow God? How can all human beings have different "amount" of free will? Just as you make the decision not to follow God, so can people make decisions to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
Yup, that's it. Do whatever you want. Just let things play out. Some things just won't hit us. Not until it is meant to. I won't offer more than that. Better to let the sun explain its own rays to a person who's in the dark than describe light to a blind man.
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
why do you try to understand God himself when you dont even believe in Him? its like a blind person from birth not seeing the color of the ocean or the sky since birth.

people do have free will... just like what youre doing now.... yes... you claim that atheists have "more" free will than a Christian...

but you fail to see the Christians side... we also have free will... its just that we FOLLOW the will of God...

like atheists following the discoveries of people they dont even know.

just like that...see the similarities? ALL of us have free will...
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
i am not countering anything... actually, i just say what i have to say... my head hurts when i deal with other peoples problems... well, actually...i dont care about your opinion or his opinion or whatever... because opinions differ...

and im not really saying that i was telling you off...i just read what is on the posts... not caring whos it from... i dont mind the name really...

besides.. debating?lol..if i want to boast my abilities about logic....i will boast... but really... all these theories? its been debated for years...

and everytime it is never settled..and people will just get into fights over and over...God dosent want that... i already explained what i can explain it might not be to you, it might be to some other guy that i dont even know the name.. and it is not within my power to convert anyone who dosent believe in what i belive in because they refuse to believe...only God has a power to do that..and besides..people have thier own free will... you and me... so thats what im doing...im letting it be.... whats on my mind ryt now... is that i say wht i want and wht i think about it....

that is why i dont quote anyone.... because frankly? if i want someone to accept my beliefs...i dont use it in this way.

i talk to him or her personally... i dont use other peoples beliefs, i dont use the bible... or science..(okay i admit..sometimes i use it) cause both have flaws and one thing i know... from reading the encyclopedias and other readable sources + observation.. facts can change...its all about faith..if you have faith in science...im not stopping you...if i have faith in my God...our God...dont stop us or convince us otherwise(im not cncentrating on you so dont take all of this personaly)..



Gods will and free will? for me they are the same... if youre Christian, you pick Gods will and you feel free to follow that..and that is the Christians free will....other people.. they have free will.. but it depends on how they use it. and who they belive in...


EDIT: by the way... i read ur posts...i think...and it was not you who said that atheists have more free will than christians...its osmeone eariler...uhh... too tired to read everything again...
Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
Ship him to my school and put him through a year of Theology. He desperately needs it.
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08
I have this thought on God's plan and his plan for all people. Now I say this to depict what I believe God's and our free will is. Imagine life as a road map, God has given you the ability to turn whichever way you want, make whatever pit stops you want, heck he even lets you choose if you wanna car bike walk or fly. Now this is my idea on God's plan, no matter which way you turn God knows what is going to happen next on your journey, and ultimately he knows the end as well. So you can make infinite chioices with infinite ending s but god knows every one. Now almost all these purposes Christian or not can be used for the good of the Kingdom.
Example: (Some people forgive me if I went to far)
You can say that you can commit suicide right now, yet by doing so you have made me thankful for life . So if you wanna look at it from that perspective then God has used you as a suicide deterent for people such as me, to further his purpose for my life.
Sry if that was kinda messed up...
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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:


Faeleia: I will assume you lack the ability to attack my logic and that resulted in your post.


Oh lol, that's precisely what I posted, that some things won't hit you until it's supposed to. Jesus doesn't waste time playing with Satan during that 40 days and nights. He knows exactly who he is. Likewise, I don't base my identity of being a child of God on whether I manage to convince people or not, it's not based on what I do, or what people think of me. His yoke is easy, burden is light. He says I'm his daughter, it is my identity. He says it's not my fight, so I won't fight. Therefore, if that was aimed at provocation into the idea that Christians are supposed to defend God, He doesn't need it, and I don't play your game.


skygod333 wrote:

Ship him to my school and put him through a year of Theology. He desperately needs it.


Lol, I would love to see you do some teaching personally. You might end up being in the teaching ministry. O_o


wolfwood012 wrote:

I have this thought on God's plan and his plan for all people. Now I say this to depict what I believe God's and our free will is. Imagine life as a road map, God has given you the ability to turn whichever way you want, make whatever pit stops you want, heck he even lets you choose if you wanna car bike walk or fly. Now this is my idea on God's plan, no matter which way you turn God knows what is going to happen next on your journey, and ultimately he knows the end as well. So you can make infinite chioices with infinite ending s but god knows every one. Now almost all these purposes Christian or not can be used for the good of the Kingdom.
Example: (Some people forgive me if I went to far)
You can say that you can commit suicide right now, yet by doing so you have made me thankful for life . So if you wanna look at it from that perspective then God has used you as a suicide deterent for people such as me, to further his purpose for my life.
Sry if that was kinda messed up...


Oh yes, you're right. Well, things might not be drastic, but I believe 'in all things, God works for the good of those who love him, and are called according to his purpose'. Like what post modernists always argue with historians, the past cannot be depicted in a linear fashion. Things happen because of various factors resulting into small scales of cause and effect, no matter how small they are. The motives may lead to actions of one man, yet it may not change history, but the ripple effect will cause the future to change in a way no man can predict.

Jesus could prophesy, but he was no prophet. He knew because God showed Him.

You're right in the sense that sometimes the trials of others may influence others, and yet that same person gripes with God when he does not realise what has happened. I love God's intellect, he's so intelligent, no man can compare, he's so loving, no man can come close to loving as much as he can. Some people love, and are biased towards their loved ones only. God loves, and saves, yet he is righteous. He matures people through experiences, yet he also does show us He is with us in times of trouble. I know I'm living God's will when my heart is at peace. I don't have to exchange that peace for anything else.

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Posted 2/5/08 , edited 4/18/08

emm0548 wrote:
Gods will and free will? for me they are the same... if youre Christian, you pick Gods will and you feel free to follow that..and that is the Christians free will....other people.. they have free will.. but it depends on how they use it. and who they belive in...


The thing about God's will, is that He never asks you to do things you dislike, or dont' want to. If He's going to steer you in a direction to do something, He'll provide the desire, the courage, the peace of heart for it. The Holy Spirit will give you the motivation, so it is never forcing us, and it'll be something that you'll want to do too. Of course, you first have to be filled with the Spirit first.

Man's desires are not God's desires.
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