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Why are People So Ungrateful to Fate Stay Night?
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31 / M / The Abyss of Time
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Posted 2/24/15 , edited 2/24/15

i0un wrote:

It's all in the context. I meant UBW is a masterpiece when compared to F/SN 2006


Even in that regard I'd still not agree, I have several issues with UBW and honestly I lean more toward the 06 anime because of a) music, b) characterization, c) not being as focused solely on the core 3 and instead giving other non-main's some attention, and d) fixing some of the stuff from the VN (like taking out Shirou's comments on Mitsuzuri for instance). I really hope ufotable does the same thing in regards to a specific part in UBW
, because if not I'm going to end up putting Shirou in the 'douche/a$$hat' category for that route.


dwilson2000 wrote:


I do agree with Kiritsugu being heavily pushed as the MC of Fate/Zero and I ended up hating him so it was somewhat annoying from that angle. It also carries the same attitude as most of the other works in the -verse that 'good guys never get a break', just look at Kariya and Saber =.=

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Posted 2/24/15 , edited 2/24/15
People who like peanut butter but don't like peanuts are ''ungrateful brats''.

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Posted 2/24/15
Its all about a misconception really.

People automatically assume that "FSN" is about this battle royale death game.

It is not. It is not called a "Grail Battle Royale" for a reason. Fate Stay Night IS Emiya Shirou's story just like Mahoyo is Aoko Aozaki's story, KNK is Ryogi Shiki's story and Tsukihime(the vn not the nonexisting anime) is Tohno Shiki's storyl.

It is a story following those characters and their perspective, life and psychology. In case of FSN the focus IS Emiya Shirou's life and worldview and how traumatic events in the past shaped his worldview and psychological problems.

Is is not about the war or the "death game" - the narrative makes that clear very early on.


Fate/Zero despite misconception is NOT about "death game" too - because it is intended to be seen last, you already KNOW the characters will die and how it will all end. IT is a greek tragedy - a journey of setpieces moving towards predetermined outcome. So the main interest Zero IS seeing how all the things connect towards the outcome you already know. As the result the focus is not on characters(anyone beyond Kerry is barely even developed) but over how their blind idiocy and flaws lead to the outcome you already know about. Fate/Zero is the nice last pretty wrapping, to wrap up the whole package of what you learned in three routes of FSN.

As a result:
- Zero's focus is the story reaching a certain point and NOT the characters.
- FSN focus IS the main characters.


That's one of many reasons why the franchise veterans would NEVER recommend seeing Zero first - because not only you miss the main point of Zero and its depth it warps your perception of the franchise, making you expect entirely wrong things(also no, Zero knowledge DOES NOT help understanding FSN characters, it warps your expectations of them).


And by the way I am not talking about DEEN-FSN, that simply does not exist in my mind and anyone thinking about this franchise should just forget that one exists.
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Posted 2/24/15 , edited 2/24/15

Kitanishi wrote:
-snip-


I won't agree with FSN being all about Shirou as it also delves into other characters as well, its about overall philosophies. The issue with FSN is it focuses too much on Shirou (and the love interest of whichever route) and not enough on other characters involved. Fate/Zero chooses to try to rectify that by showing other sides of the coin/story, instead of focusing everything on any particular group. I personally found certain characters well developed, both making me love them (F/Z's Rider) and hate them (Kiritsugu Emiya & Tokiomi Tohsaka). Both series bring up philosophies though via differing 'talking heads' and both series punish the 'good' people involved.

The Deen anime actually stands as a middle ground of the two styles. It expands outside of 'just those around Shirou' and shows what is happening to other non-main characters, while still putting a spotlight on Shirou and Saber's story. You want to act like it doesn't exist? Fine, but don't advise others to do so as well with your biased view. It improved the VN's Fate story via adding in things & taking out things that are idiotic/degrading/repulsive in the original text.
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Posted 2/24/15 , edited 2/24/15

Kitanishi wrote:

Its all about a misconception really.

People automatically assume that "FSN" is about this battle royale death game.

It is not. It is not called a "Grail Battle Royale" for a reason. Fate Stay Night IS Emiya Shirou's story just like Mahoyo is Aoko Aozaki's story, KNK is Ryogi Shiki's story and Tsukihime(the vn not the nonexisting anime) is Tohno Shiki's storyl.

It is a story following those characters and their perspective, life and psychology. In case of FSN the focus IS Emiya Shirou's life and worldview and how traumatic events in the past shaped his worldview and psychological problems.

Is is not about the war or the "death game" - the narrative makes that clear very early on.


Fate/Zero despite misconception is NOT about "death game" too - because it is intended to be seen last, you already KNOW the characters will die and how it will all end. IT is a greek tragedy - a journey of setpieces moving towards predetermined outcome. So the main interest Zero IS seeing how all the things connect towards the outcome you already know. As the result the focus is not on characters(anyone beyond Kerry is barely even developed) but over how their blind idiocy and flaws lead to the outcome you already know about. Fate/Zero is the nice last pretty wrapping, to wrap up the whole package of what you learned in three routes of FSN.

As a result:
- Zero's focus is the story reaching a certain point and NOT the characters.
- FSN focus IS the main characters.


That's one of many reasons why the franchise veterans would NEVER recommend seeing Zero first - because not only you miss the main point of Zero and its depth it warps your perception of the franchise, making you expect entirely wrong things(also no, Zero knowledge DOES NOT help understanding FSN characters, it warps your expectations of them).


And by the way I am not talking about DEEN-FSN, that simply does not exist in my mind and anyone thinking about this franchise should just forget that one exists.


You make sense, I like you.

I really feel like I should finish the Deen Stay Night though. I stopped halfway. It wasn't that it was horrible, it just wasn't even close to the VN in terms of beng exciting. Something is missing from that one.
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Posted 2/24/15
Well some people most likely like the story better. As for those fanboys that say FSN sucks is props cuz they like fate/zero story line more. Me on the other hand have watched both and like them equally.

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Posted 2/24/15

Xylrot wrote:


Kitanishi wrote:


You make sense, I like you.

I really feel like I should finish the Deen Stay Night though. I stopped halfway. It wasn't that it was horrible, it just wasn't even close to the VN in terms of beng exciting. Something is missing from that one.


I agree, that perspective seems the most logical. I just started watching the DEEN Fate/Stay Night recently and after completing it took away the same thing that poster said. Give it another try if you can, I really enjoyed it despite DEEN not being so great with the animation. I'm now watching Zero and it seems like it is exactly as the poster says as well, a depiction of how things went down to set the stage for the events in F/SN.
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Posted 2/24/15 , edited 2/24/15

Xylrot wrote:


Kitanishi wrote:

Its all about a misconception really.

People automatically assume that "FSN" is about this battle royale death game.

It is not. It is not called a "Grail Battle Royale" for a reason. Fate Stay Night IS Emiya Shirou's story just like Mahoyo is Aoko Aozaki's story, KNK is Ryogi Shiki's story and Tsukihime(the vn not the nonexisting anime) is Tohno Shiki's storyl.

It is a story following those characters and their perspective, life and psychology. In case of FSN the focus IS Emiya Shirou's life and worldview and how traumatic events in the past shaped his worldview and psychological problems.

Is is not about the war or the "death game" - the narrative makes that clear very early on.


Fate/Zero despite misconception is NOT about "death game" too - because it is intended to be seen last, you already KNOW the characters will die and how it will all end. IT is a greek tragedy - a journey of setpieces moving towards predetermined outcome. So the main interest Zero IS seeing how all the things connect towards the outcome you already know. As the result the focus is not on characters(anyone beyond Kerry is barely even developed) but over how their blind idiocy and flaws lead to the outcome you already know about. Fate/Zero is the nice last pretty wrapping, to wrap up the whole package of what you learned in three routes of FSN.

As a result:
- Zero's focus is the story reaching a certain point and NOT the characters.
- FSN focus IS the main characters.


That's one of many reasons why the franchise veterans would NEVER recommend seeing Zero first - because not only you miss the main point of Zero and its depth it warps your perception of the franchise, making you expect entirely wrong things(also no, Zero knowledge DOES NOT help understanding FSN characters, it warps your expectations of them).


And by the way I am not talking about DEEN-FSN, that simply does not exist in my mind and anyone thinking about this franchise should just forget that one exists.


You make sense, I like you.

I really feel like I should finish the Deen Stay Night though. I stopped halfway. It wasn't that it was horrible, it just wasn't even close to the VN in terms of beng exciting. Something is missing from that one.


Lol Kitanshi NEVER makes sense. And if you think he does well...
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Posted 2/24/15

Kitanishi wrote:

Its all about a misconception really.

People automatically assume that "FSN" is about this battle royale death game.

It is not. It is not called a "Grail Battle Royale" for a reason. Fate Stay Night IS Emiya Shirou's story just like Mahoyo is Aoko Aozaki's story, KNK is Ryogi Shiki's story and Tsukihime(the vn not the nonexisting anime) is Tohno Shiki's storyl.

It is a story following those characters and their perspective, life and psychology. In case of FSN the focus IS Emiya Shirou's life and worldview and how traumatic events in the past shaped his worldview and psychological problems.

Is is not about the war or the "death game" - the narrative makes that clear very early on.


Fate/Zero despite misconception is NOT about "death game" too - because it is intended to be seen last, you already KNOW the characters will die and how it will all end. IT is a greek tragedy - a journey of setpieces moving towards predetermined outcome. So the main interest Zero IS seeing how all the things connect towards the outcome you already know. As the result the focus is not on characters(anyone beyond Kerry is barely even developed) but over how their blind idiocy and flaws lead to the outcome you already know about. Fate/Zero is the nice last pretty wrapping, to wrap up the whole package of what you learned in three routes of FSN.

As a result:
- Zero's focus is the story reaching a certain point and NOT the characters.
- FSN focus IS the main characters.


That's one of many reasons why the franchise veterans would NEVER recommend seeing Zero first - because not only you miss the main point of Zero and its depth it warps your perception of the franchise, making you expect entirely wrong things(also no, Zero knowledge DOES NOT help understanding FSN characters, it warps your expectations of them).


And by the way I am not talking about DEEN-FSN, that simply does not exist in my mind and anyone thinking about this franchise should just forget that one exists.

i'm sorry but i'm going to call you out and say that's a shit way of arguing for ubw and not fz.

you source the games, but then turn around and say that neither tsukihime the anime nor FSN 2006 should count. That's cherry picking what best suits your perspective. and i don't think everyone's going nuts over UBW/FSN because it's a "deathmatch' anime. we have SnK/AoT for that. it's simply that Shirou is a shitty main character unless he's archer or on his way to becoming archer. we're not watching ubw in fact for shirou. it's about archer. (also i liked tsukihime for what it was. and i do like the original fsn for what IT was.. neither would make my current top ten list, but still.)
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Posted 2/24/15

Legendzerox wrote:

I blame Studio Dean for all the ungratefulness. Especially after Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night UBW after Ufotable got its hands on it. Studio Dean is a very lackluster animation studio that tends to ruin great narratives with horrible animation quality and inconsistency.


in this i'm going to say something really blasphemous.

type moon has great ideas and concepts, but the visual novels are even more shitty than the first anime.

i'm sorry, but honestly, it's the truth. they suck at telling a story.

fsn was an improvement over the vn. fz was an improvement over fSn. ubw is an improvement over fz.

as this franchise has matured, it has gotten better and i think the script writers are the ones that should be honored.

it's like the batman franchise. the comic book source is pretty lame and i could never get into it. the michael keaton batman was an improvement over the comic book and the 60's tv series. george clooney kinda killed it but then the last three batman movies were by far the best and told a complete batman story that made up for it.

in the same way, fate/stay night the vn was shit, but fsn was an improvement, and i feel like the people that have to reference back to the source material for their justifications are in actuality only reinforcing the opinion that the article in question is far too weak to stand on its own,

other than that, it should be somewhat judged based on it's timeline (irl production timeline) but overall, there's a definite difference in quality amongst the titles.

i mean compare it to the gits franchise or the Fma franchises. those two had other iterations and there's few that really debate differences in what's better (and even if there is,there's no clear winner with the fans).

(also my shift keys seem kinda shot)
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Posted 2/24/15

i0un wrote:


Xylrot wrote:


i0un wrote:

Calling people idiots for having an opinion just makes you look foolish. The first adaptation of F/SN in 2006 which we are currently discussing was bad. Plain and simple. Zero redeemed the franchise and now we have a decent version of F/SN in UBW.


"Zero was better" is an opinion. "Stay Night doesn't live up to Zero's name" is a faulty statement that comes from the lack of knowledge about which came first.
Yes, even I wouldn't call the 2006 adaptation good, but Zero didn't redeem the franchise since it wasn't bad to begin with. One misstep can't destroy a whole franchise and it didn't happen this time either. The Fate franchise was completely fine even after 2006. There was the original VN which was as good as ever and all the other spin-offs.
The Fate/Zero anime did really good, but it wasn't the Messiah of the franchise. Mostly because it didn't need one.


Agreed except for the franchise redemption brought on by zero. Legions of anime watchers myself included never got into the games or visual novels, after seeing the original fate stay night, but after zero it definitely was a game changer. Now I am more inclined to read the novels and play the games.


you know it's also funny nobody mentioned the UBW that came between the original FSN and FZ.... >.>
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Posted 2/24/15
Dude Fate Stay Night is pretty good! Although, i personally thought it could be better, but it was pretty good. I wish they would have changed it up just because there has already been an anime and movie about it but thats just me
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Posted 2/24/15

serifsansserif wrote:


Legendzerox wrote:

I blame Studio Dean for all the ungratefulness. Especially after Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night UBW after Ufotable got its hands on it. Studio Dean is a very lackluster animation studio that tends to ruin great narratives with horrible animation quality and inconsistency.


in this i'm going to say something really blasphemous.

type moon has great ideas and concepts, but the visual novels are even more shitty than the first anime.

i'm sorry, but honestly, it's the truth. they suck at telling a story.

fsn was an improvement over the vn. fz was an improvement over fSn. ubw is an improvement over fz.

as this franchise has matured, it has gotten better and i think the script writers are the ones that should be honored.

it's like the batman franchise. the comic book source is pretty lame and i could never get into it. the michael keaton batman was an improvement over the comic book and the 60's tv series. george clooney kinda killed it but then the last three batman movies were by far the best and told a complete batman story that made up for it.

in the same way, fate/stay night the vn was shit, but fsn was an improvement, and i feel like the people that have to reference back to the source material for their justifications are in actuality only reinforcing the opinion that the article in question is far too weak to stand on its own,

other than that, it should be somewhat judged based on it's timeline (irl production timeline) but overall, there's a definite difference in quality amongst the titles.

i mean compare it to the gits franchise or the Fma franchises. those two had other iterations and there's few that really debate differences in what's better (and even if there is,there's no clear winner with the fans).

(also my shift keys seem kinda shot)


This doesn't make much sense to me. You say the VN sucks but the current UBW adaptation is 90%+ content from the VN itself. You then say UBW improves upon Zero but how can that be possible if the UBW adaptation is majority of the VN content which you claim sucks? That is my understanding of what you said.
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Posted 2/24/15 , edited 2/24/15
All of them suck, excluding Carnival Phantasm.
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Posted 2/24/15 , edited 2/24/15

serifsansserif wrote:


Kitanishi wrote:

Its all about a misconception really.

People automatically assume that "FSN" is about this battle royale death game.

It is not. It is not called a "Grail Battle Royale" for a reason. Fate Stay Night IS Emiya Shirou's story just like Mahoyo is Aoko Aozaki's story, KNK is Ryogi Shiki's story and Tsukihime(the vn not the nonexisting anime) is Tohno Shiki's storyl.

It is a story following those characters and their perspective, life and psychology. In case of FSN the focus IS Emiya Shirou's life and worldview and how traumatic events in the past shaped his worldview and psychological problems.

Is is not about the war or the "death game" - the narrative makes that clear very early on.


Fate/Zero despite misconception is NOT about "death game" too - because it is intended to be seen last, you already KNOW the characters will die and how it will all end. IT is a greek tragedy - a journey of setpieces moving towards predetermined outcome. So the main interest Zero IS seeing how all the things connect towards the outcome you already know. As the result the focus is not on characters(anyone beyond Kerry is barely even developed) but over how their blind idiocy and flaws lead to the outcome you already know about. Fate/Zero is the nice last pretty wrapping, to wrap up the whole package of what you learned in three routes of FSN.

As a result:
- Zero's focus is the story reaching a certain point and NOT the characters.
- FSN focus IS the main characters.


That's one of many reasons why the franchise veterans would NEVER recommend seeing Zero first - because not only you miss the main point of Zero and its depth it warps your perception of the franchise, making you expect entirely wrong things(also no, Zero knowledge DOES NOT help understanding FSN characters, it warps your expectations of them).


And by the way I am not talking about DEEN-FSN, that simply does not exist in my mind and anyone thinking about this franchise should just forget that one exists.

i'm sorry but i'm going to call you out and say that's a shit way of arguing for ubw and not fz.

you source the games, but then turn around and say that neither tsukihime the anime nor FSN 2006 should count. That's cherry picking what best suits your perspective. and i don't think everyone's going nuts over UBW/FSN because it's a "deathmatch' anime. we have SnK/AoT for that. it's simply that Shirou is a shitty main character unless....... we're not watching ubw in fact for shirou. it's about archer. (also i liked tsukihime for what it was. and i do like the original fsn for what IT was.. neither would make my current top ten list, but still.)


That's cool that you're watching it for Archer, but the story is about Shirou. VN fans are watching it for Shirou. There are still misconceptions about Shirou because ufotable have failed to adapt some things correctly. I'll have to get around to watching Tsukihime (I've read the VN and sequel) but from what I've heard it really doesn't tell the story correctly. FSN 2006 is just a butchering of the source there is a reason it's not counted as canon.

I'll disagree, some people are watching this because they think it's a 'death match', just like people think F/Z is primarily a 'death match'.

Meh, after reading your other replies you sound like a troll, but w/e I'll indulge.

Nice spoilers in your post btw.
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