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Why are People So Ungrateful to Fate Stay Night?
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Posted 2/24/15
I don't appreciate the 2006 FSN. That won't change. I will continue to prefer F/Z over the 2006 FSN, the UBW movie, as well as the UBW season. I have a penchant for tragedies, and F/Z satisfies my twisted craving. I do find that I'm highly fond the UBW season, though.
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Posted 2/25/15

Pearsauces wrote:

This doesn't make much sense to me. You say the VN sucks but the current UBW adaptation is 90%+ content from the VN itself. You then say UBW improves upon Zero but how can that be possible if the UBW adaptation is majority of the VN content which you claim sucks? That is my understanding of what you said.



It's the medium and the writing style of the VN i hate.

i'll be honestl, i've never gotten very far in the vn. I just really hate them.

at least for the writing style i may be able to say it's just translation.

as for medium, vn's are... well, they're typically a half assed product it feels. it's not a book where I can read at my leisure.

It's *click* read,,, *click* read*.. "oh look. a background image changed...*click* read,,, *click* read*.. *click* read,,, *click* read*.. *click* read,,, *click* read*.. another new bg image...... every now and then make a decision....

I mean people have got to start realizing that a VN is a sub par choose your own adventure style boo because it relies too heavily on changing background images to convey story to make up[ for its lack in writing. It's sub par as an rpg because nothing happens except reading character text. and it sucks as an anime stand in because.. well... nobody likes the manga2.5 stuff, and this is essentially that without even a vocal cast.

I mean here... let people be the judge..

Fifteen minutes of VN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOfWOsb_vb4

roughly the same scene from 2006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fepD5zKd8Wg

and 2014 just for the sake of good order.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG7qp_ILhFo

the graphics improve, sure, but the cinematography (by this I mean the cuts scenes, what the scenes convey, how they tell the story) actually are easier to enjoy than the vn. for obvious reasons. different medium, improved results.

Quality of writing.. i take my earlier statement back. it's not terrible. Not like the tsukihime one was for me, but it's not good either.


As for the person who said something about spoilers:

We're talking about a game that's over A DECADE old, and an original series damned nearing it. We had an UBW "movie" about half a decade or more ago. they don't count as spoilers when you're talking about properties nearly as old as some of the viewers.

Especially in a topic that assumes you watched these properties, and when VN fans were screaming to see UBW 10 years ago and spoiled it for everyone back then, and that, my friend, is why we even have UBW as the route being made into an anime today.
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Posted 2/25/15
That makes more sense but it just seems like you strongly dislike VN's more than anything. I will admit FSN has it's issues (the pacing being the biggest) and this is coming from a guy who really enjoys the franchise. I'm no professional critic but i still consider FSN a good piece of writing even with it's faults.
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Posted 2/25/15

serifsansserif wrote:


Kitanishi wrote:

Its all about a misconception really.

People automatically assume that "FSN" is about this battle royale death game.

It is not. It is not called a "Grail Battle Royale" for a reason. Fate Stay Night IS Emiya Shirou's story just like Mahoyo is Aoko Aozaki's story, KNK is Ryogi Shiki's story and Tsukihime(the vn not the nonexisting anime) is Tohno Shiki's storyl.

It is a story following those characters and their perspective, life and psychology. In case of FSN the focus IS Emiya Shirou's life and worldview and how traumatic events in the past shaped his worldview and psychological problems.

Is is not about the war or the "death game" - the narrative makes that clear very early on.


Fate/Zero despite misconception is NOT about "death game" too - because it is intended to be seen last, you already KNOW the characters will die and how it will all end. IT is a greek tragedy - a journey of setpieces moving towards predetermined outcome. So the main interest Zero IS seeing how all the things connect towards the outcome you already know. As the result the focus is not on characters(anyone beyond Kerry is barely even developed) but over how their blind idiocy and flaws lead to the outcome you already know about. Fate/Zero is the nice last pretty wrapping, to wrap up the whole package of what you learned in three routes of FSN.

As a result:
- Zero's focus is the story reaching a certain point and NOT the characters.
- FSN focus IS the main characters.


That's one of many reasons why the franchise veterans would NEVER recommend seeing Zero first - because not only you miss the main point of Zero and its depth it warps your perception of the franchise, making you expect entirely wrong things(also no, Zero knowledge DOES NOT help understanding FSN characters, it warps your expectations of them).


And by the way I am not talking about DEEN-FSN, that simply does not exist in my mind and anyone thinking about this franchise should just forget that one exists.

i'm sorry but i'm going to call you out and say that's a shit way of arguing for ubw and not fz.

you source the games, but then turn around and say that neither tsukihime the anime nor FSN 2006 should count. That's cherry picking what best suits your perspective. and i don't think everyone's going nuts over UBW/FSN because it's a "deathmatch' anime. we have SnK/AoT for that. it's simply that Shirou is a shitty main character unless he's archer or on his way to becoming archer. we're not watching ubw in fact for shirou. it's about archer. (also i liked tsukihime for what it was. and i do like the original fsn for what IT was.. neither would make my current top ten list, but still.)


....I honestly think the Tsukihime anime shouldn't count either and I watched the anime BEFORE reading the VN, it was a horrible adaption of the main story and was weak from a standalone point of view even. Not only were characters butchered, but they were generally one dimensional and uninteresting, they tried to develop certain characters using some parts of their individual character arcs from the VN, but failed pretty horribly; just making their actions seem forced and like they came out of nowhere, the plot was generally all over the place since it was using bits and pieces from each route just making a big confusing mess of a story...Really the only thing that kept me going throughout the anime adaption was the OST which was WAYYY too good for this anime.

Honestly, the only well made adaption for Tsukihime is the manga which definitely fulfills it's objective of adapting the main plot/Arcuied's route and even developing Ciel and Akiha at the same time.

Also one could argue that you're cherry picking what best suits your perspective by saying that Shirou is a shitty protagonist 'unless he's archer or on his way to becoming archer' and claiming that the general viewerbase is watching UBW JUST for that.
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Posted 2/25/15 , edited 2/25/15
Why do you guys openly post spoilers in this thread, I don't care if it's 10 years old, there are people new to anime that don't know and people new to Fate/Stay Night that don't know. It's common courtesy to cover up spoilers because you don't know who will read it, there is no indication in the title or first post that there will be spoilers thrown around here.

And of course the guy calling Shriou shitty hasn't read the VN.
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Posted 2/25/15 , edited 2/25/15

Nocorras wrote:

Why do you guys openly post spoilers in this thread, I don't care if it's 10 years old, there are people new to anime that don't know and people new to Fate/Stay Night that don't know. It's common courtesy to cover up spoilers because you don't know who will read it.

And of course the guy calling Shriou shitty hasn't read the VN.


What's more - incorrect/misleading spoilers to boot.


This thread is a damn minefield.
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Posted 2/25/15
Fate Stay night was like a miracle when it got a good reception on the west. Typemoon a company of 45 guys at the time they know nothing in English, when it came out and they will adapt into anime (from a Eroge) that time it was like "whoa! for real?" 2006-2007 people where exactly in the need of a seien series with battle style of Pokémon with human, studio deen then "lest do this sheet" and bang! Random hit in the west!
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Posted 2/25/15 , edited 2/25/15

Nocorras wrote:


The story is more about philosophy than Shirou in particular. I've seen Shirou from the VN and he's not as grand as some try to make him out to be. The 06 anime actually did him several favors via editing out certain things he says and thinks, pretty sure the current UBW adaptation will do the same with a specific scene in the 2nd cour. The 06 anime should be seen as a 'Fate' adaptation rather than as a full-story one and in that context its fine and actually from my p.o.v. expands/improves the story.


serifsansserif wrote:



I've got to agree with you though I'd say its based on the reader's preference. When I go through the VN it bores me because its not a medium that fits me or engages me, unlike an anime or manga does. Not to mention that in the anime and manga's they can edit out idiotic/repulsive things that were in the original source. And the fact that an anime/manga doesn't carry the same needs as an eroge, they can take out or downplay the sexual elements that were in the VN.
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Posted 2/25/15

serifsansserif wrote:


I feel really bad for you. I'm not saying this in a sarcastic or a-holish way either. I feel genuinely bad for you cause now you'll have to deal with a bunch of quotes from the VN fanboys who can't take it when anyone brings up a single point of criticisms on one of it's flaws.
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Posted 2/25/15 , edited 2/25/15

dwilson2000 wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:


I feel really bad for you. I'm not saying this in a sarcastic or a-holish way either. I feel genuinely bad for you cause now you'll have to deal with a bunch of quotes from the VN fanboys who can't take it when anyone brings up a single point of criticisms on one of it's flaws.


Sup, VN Fanboy here quoting you because I can't take it when anyone criticizes my inability to take a single point of criticism about my holy book's flaws. Don't worry, I'm bringing friends :3c
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Posted 2/25/15

dwilson2000 wrote:


serifsansserif wrote:


I feel really bad for you. I'm not saying this in a sarcastic or a-holish way either. I feel genuinely bad for you cause now you'll have to deal with a bunch of quotes from the VN fanboys who can't take it when anyone brings up a single point of criticisms on one of it's flaws.


hahahaha.. I know and the so what attitude to decades old spoilers is sure to attract attention. I wanted to include other spoilers (like darth Vader being Luke Skywalker's father) in a sarcastic manner to reiterate my point but refained lest I fall into the thin border between funny and troll.

(and none of what I have said or am saying is an effort to troll either. I genuinely believe what I have been saying.)
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Posted 2/25/15 , edited 2/25/15
Yes, lets post spoilers to one of the most well known movies of all time vs a little known VN in the grand scheme of things. If you can't accept that there are new people to anime/VNs that don't know about the whole of FSN then I don't know what to tell you.

Maybe I should casually spoil Heaven's Feel for you since you haven't read the 10 year old VN. I have no problems with spoilers if the title has [Spoilers] or the first post indicates that there will be spoilers. The fact of the matter is your spoilers were misleading and really didn't help your argument so they were pretty pointless to begin with.

I had heard this place was bad, but I didn't think it was this bad.
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Posted 2/25/15

Nocorras wrote:

Yes, lets post spoilers to one of the most well known movies of all time vs a little known VN in the grand scheme of things. If you can't accept that there are new people to anime/VNs that don't know about the whole of FSN then I don't know what to tell you.

Maybe I should casually spoil Heaven's Feel for you since you haven't read the 10 year old VN.

I had heard this place was bad, but I didn't think it was this bad.


Not to mention it is not just any VN

It is VN and a route that did not have that much of exposition to the outside world beyond the type moon fanbase.

A VN an adaptation of which is CURRENTLY airing.
A VN an adaptation of which is streaming on Crunchyroll.

SO yeah, Spoilers.
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Posted 2/25/15

Kitanishi wrote:


Nocorras wrote:

Yes, lets post spoilers to one of the most well known movies of all time vs a little known VN in the grand scheme of things. If you can't accept that there are new people to anime/VNs that don't know about the whole of FSN then I don't know what to tell you.

Maybe I should casually spoil Heaven's Feel for you since you haven't read the 10 year old VN.

I had heard this place was bad, but I didn't think it was this bad.


Not to mention it is not just any VN

It is VN and a route that did not have that much of exposition to the outside world beyond the type moon fanbase.

A VN an adaptation of which is CURRENTLY airing.
A VN an adaptation of which is streaming on Crunchyroll.

SO yeah, Spoilers.


http://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/2x42yd/worst_way_a_show_has_been_spoiled_for_you/

Ctrl f and type Fate. At least 8-12 people there alone were spoiled. There are a lot of people that don't know the details of the routes beyond what FSN 2006 shows.
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Posted 2/25/15 , edited 2/25/15
As I just added to the opening post,


Let's assume that this thread will contain some spoilers as an integral part of the discussion. If you aren't familiar with the franchise, or have limited familiarity and can't tolerate learning some things you might not know yet, this is probably not a good thread for you. That said, please do use some discretion when revealing significant info or events out of basic courtesy, and use spoiler tags in those cases.

Noting spoilers is especially important in cases of information from the VN that have not been revealed in the anime adaptations currently available/aired to date.
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