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Posted 3/12/15 , edited 3/12/15
LOL!

Having been a starving artist for a good while, I can say that this is simply the way it is for many artists starting out. Some call it "paying dues", others call it "honing your craft"... I have even seen it referred to as "on the job training".

These jobs are roughly analogous to careers in acting or music -- for every one person who succeeds you have hundreds who don't. There are alot of factors that contribute: Effort, Timing, Contacts, Luck, People Skills and Talent.

One thing that is true regardless: If a person is truly good at their job they will not be kept in a "slave wage" scenario long. There is always a dearth of high-quality creative talent -- people that meet that standard will quickly rise to the top of the pay-scale.

So the people who suffer are those lacking in one (or more) of the factors to succeed -- but still want to stay in that job market. There are always more qualified applicants than there are jobs (just like actors or musicians), so getting people to work for next to nothing is not something employers have to push on the staff. Most people entering the field understand this is what it is starting out -- you simply have to "pay your dues" and climb your way to a proper pay level.

For the record some things that kept me down were: bad timing, lack of talent and poor people skills. I eventually overcame those limitations by virtue of extraordinary effort -- and by choosing to play to the talents I did have, instead of continuing to force myself to work in areas I had very little talent for.

I would never hold anybody else accountable for my failure to make a livable wage (especially something like the consumers) -- that was simply the result of my choices (and I doubt I would have done it any differently). I was grateful for the chance to work at slave wage jobs -- it can be incredibly difficult just to get somebody to give you a shot at all.
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Posted 3/12/15

eragon2890 wrote:

¨And even then one shouldn't go too far and exclude otaku entirely.¨

Yes, any sane person would agree to that. But here´s a tip: I got a message from ´somebody´ who basically stated that maxgale is known for thinking everyone on this forum is part of the problem, and that´s best to just ignore him because he was just gonna keep insulting me and tell me it´s my fault.

It worked; he didn't talk to me anymore. The basic idea was don´t feed the troll.

Off course otaku shouldn´t be excluded from cons; it´s fun to have events for everyone. We here have events for otaku (again, most of the visitors) such as the hentai voice over which some people might not like, but they´re at midnight, 18+, and clearly designated. (And offcourse most con goers DO love it XD). We also have history lectures, sushi workshops, papercraft workshops, cosplay lectures etc. And the AMV compo, anime competition, etc. So no matter what you like there's always something for you. Offcourse it''s attracts moslty otaku (good thing XD) but there's enough for casual fans too, as well as beginner lectures and such. There's absolutely no reason to change anything everyone is happy.

He just wants to ´purge´ all otaku from the scene because they watch different anime them him. I get the idea he is ´usually not the sunshine of the party´, if you get what I mean. If we just don´t reply anymore, the fun of baiting people by insulting them will probably wear of pretty quickly. Good idea rigth? :D

No: do you have any pictures of sexy catgirls with big boobies~ I need some otaku-ish eyebleach :3 *is off to google image search*


Nah, Megaman's alright. I get along with him fine.

Anyway, it sounds like that sort of a convention is representative of the ones I've been to. Nothing terribly out of place, and plenty for everyone. What do you think, Megaman? What are the problem items among those?
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Posted 3/12/15 , edited 3/12/15

BlueOni wrote:


maxgale wrote:

Not saying do away with cons, just the sort of anime otaku like.


Alright, but I would imagine that the amount of tweaking needing to be done would depend largely upon the convention of interest. And even then one shouldn't go too far and exclude otaku entirely.


And there certainly has been a decrease in titles from Geneon, ADV, and all the others that went kaput when the market no longer became sustainable due to market changing due to otaku.


I don't know. It's not as if ADV, Media Blasters, Central Park Media, and so on hadn't been licensing handfuls of titles which would put off the general public. The amount of extremely violent anime coming out of the 80s and 90s was staggering. Even Ranma 1/2 might be considered offputting for its nudity and transgender themes. Hell, Media Blasters and Central Park Media didn't/don't exactly shy away from hentai titles, and Central Park Media's business model was pretty much to license whatever it could besides. Between Kitty Media and Anime 18 there's a decent pile of some pretty out there titles, and they aren't all from the 2000s (though a good many are).


Violence and nudity, especially in the context of violence, falls within accepted cultural norms of the US. Whereas hentai doesn't, but that's why those who licensed such content did so through subsidiaries and not under the main brand: even back during the 80s and 90s the American anime industry recognized that the otaku market is independent of the general anime market.

But now the general market is being changed to be otaku centric, so for example there is lolicon, incest, etc. where one previously wouldn't have such elements appear in a particular series or genre.
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Posted 3/12/15 , edited 3/12/15

jason_maranto wrote:

LOL!

Having been a starving artist for a good while, I can say that this is simply the way it is for many artists starting out. Some call it "paying dues", others call it "honing your craft"... I have even seen it referred to as "on the job training".

These jobs are roughly analogous to careers in acting or music -- for every one person who succeeds you have hundreds who don't. There are alot of factors that contribute: Effort, Timing, Contacts, Luck, People Skills and Talent.

One thing that is true regardless: If a person is truly good at their job they will not be kept in a "slave wage" scenario long. There is always a dearth of high-quality creative talent -- people that meet that standard will quickly rise to the top of the pay-scale.

So the people who suffer are those lacking in one (or more) of the factors to succeed -- but still want to stay in that job market. There are always more qualified applicants than there are jobs (just like actors or musicians), so getting people to work for next to nothing is not something employers have to push on the staff. Most people entering the field understand this is what it is starting out -- you simply have to "pay your dues" and climb your way to a proper pay level.

For the record some things that kept me down were: bad timing, lack of talent and poor people skills. I eventually overcame those limitations by virtue of extraordinary effort -- and by choosing to play to the talents I did have, instead of continuing to force myself to work in areas I had very little talent for.

I would never hold anybody else accountable for my failure to make a livable wage (especially something like the consumers) -- that was simply the result of my choices (and I doubt I would have done it any differently). I was grateful for the chance to work at slave wage jobs -- it can be incredibly difficult just to get somebody to give you a shot at all.


"Pay your dues" sounds an awful lot like "pay to play" which by any other name is a scam.


In the business world one can get fired for loafing around, as it is considered stealing company resources: in general I have no problem with such theory, though it is increasingly becoming a means to fire higher paid union employees. However I find the willingness of the corporate world to extend this same concept to how they appropriate their employees to be quite telling, in that it reveals just how much employees themselves are thought of the personal property of the shareholders.

Gives new meaning to "human resources".....
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Posted 3/12/15 , edited 3/12/15

maxgale wrote:
Gives new meaning to "human resources".....

And what do you call the children of parents who own convenience or other small businesses and "force" their kids to work there?

Many animators would even work for free if there was no pay but there was still anime to be made.

That's what they did in their free time when they were hikikomori, draw anime and "manga".


Edit: Reminds of that lawsuit NFL cheerleaders brought asking for higher pay.
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Posted 3/12/15 , edited 3/12/15

maxgale wrote:

Violence and nudity, especially in the context of violence, falls within accepted cultural norms of the US. Whereas hentai doesn't, but that's why those who licensed such content did so through subsidiaries and not under the main brand: even back during the 80s and 90s the American anime industry recognized that the otaku market is independent of the general anime market.

But now the general market is being changed to be otaku centric, so for example there is lolicon, incest, etc. where one previously wouldn't have such elements appear in a particular series or genre.


So what the anime industry really needs, as far as you're concerned, is more attention to titles like Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, and Outlaw Star. Also, things like Working/Wagnaria!!, Slayers, Legend of the Legendary Heroes, The Devil is a Part Timer, Sailor Moon, and probably also Gundam. Things with broader appeal in North American markets than, say, Oreimo.

You're basically saying:

"Yeah, Japan. Great job. You managed to seize upon the minority of people in North America and Europe who happen to also enjoy the sort of works your otaku do. But here's the thing, Japan: North America is a big market, and you're only seizing upon a tiny sliver of it. You're not making nearly the money you could be by focusing so strongly on those sort of titles. Just keep the general North American and/or European viewership in mind and you'll see your profit potential go through the roof!"

I'm not actually sure which Japanese studios would be open to that. As I understand it (and I could be way off base) Japan's entertainment industry is nearly completely inwardly focused. As in, they don't give a rat's backside if North Americans like their works. That probably depends on the studio, but from what I'm told (and again, could be way off) that's how it is for the majority.
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Posted 3/12/15

BlueOni wrote:


eragon2890 wrote:

¨And even then one shouldn't go too far and exclude otaku entirely.¨

Yes, any sane person would agree to that. But here´s a tip: I got a message from ´somebody´ who basically stated that maxgale is known for thinking everyone on this forum is part of the problem, and that´s best to just ignore him because he was just gonna keep insulting me and tell me it´s my fault.

It worked; he didn't talk to me anymore. The basic idea was don´t feed the troll.

Off course otaku shouldn´t be excluded from cons; it´s fun to have events for everyone. We here have events for otaku (again, most of the visitors) such as the hentai voice over which some people might not like, but they´re at midnight, 18+, and clearly designated. (And offcourse most con goers DO love it XD). We also have history lectures, sushi workshops, papercraft workshops, cosplay lectures etc. And the AMV compo, anime competition, etc. So no matter what you like there's always something for you. Offcourse it''s attracts moslty otaku (good thing XD) but there's enough for casual fans too, as well as beginner lectures and such. There's absolutely no reason to change anything everyone is happy.

He just wants to ´purge´ all otaku from the scene because they watch different anime them him. I get the idea he is ´usually not the sunshine of the party´, if you get what I mean. If we just don´t reply anymore, the fun of baiting people by insulting them will probably wear of pretty quickly. Good idea rigth? :D

No: do you have any pictures of sexy catgirls with big boobies~ I need some otaku-ish eyebleach :3 *is off to google image search*


Nah, Megaman's alright. I get along with him fine.

Anyway, it sounds like that sort of a convention is representative of the ones I've been to. Nothing terribly out of place, and plenty for everyone. What do you think, Megaman? What are the problem items among those?



Indeed. I must be the most courteous "troll", what with not engaging with some one specifically after they asked me not to.

But it appears that isn't what they really wanted?

What the hell. Even with all the anime I watched, I still don't get tsunderes.



bathroom64 wrote:


maxgale wrote:
Gives new meaning to "human resources".....

And what do you call the children of parents who own convenience or other small businesses and "force" their kids to work there?

Many animators would even work for free if there was no pay but there was still anime to be made.

That's what they did in their free time when they were hikikomori, draw anime and "manga".


Edit: Reminds of that lawsuit NFL cheerleaders brought asking for higher pay.


I'd call them lousy parents. And law breakers.

Which is the problem of having the industry become full of otaku. It further exacerbates the problem.


BlueOni wrote:


maxgale wrote:

Violence and nudity, especially in the context of violence, falls within accepted cultural norms of the US. Whereas hentai doesn't, but that's why those who licensed such content did so through subsidiaries and not under the main brand: even back during the 80s and 90s the American anime industry recognized that the otaku market is independent of the general anime market.

But now the general market is being changed to be otaku centric, so for example there is lolicon, incest, etc. where one previously wouldn't have such elements appear in a particular series or genre.


So what the anime industry really needs, as far as you're concerned, is more attention to titles like Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, and Outlaw Star. Also, things like Working/Wagnaria!!, Slayers, Legend of the Legendary Heroes, The Devil is a Part Timer, Sailor Moon, and probably also Gundam. Things with broader appeal in North American markets than, say, Oreimo.

You're basically saying:

"Yeah, Japan. Great job. You managed to seize upon the minority of people in North America and Europe who happen to also enjoy the sort of works your otaku do. But here's the thing, Japan: North America is a big market, and you're only seizing upon a tiny sliver of it. You're not making nearly the money you could be by focusing so strongly on those sort of titles. Just keep the general North American and/or European viewership in mind and you'll see your profit potential go through the roof!"

I'm not actually sure which Japanese studios would be open to that. As I understand it (and I could be way off base) Japan's entertainment industry is nearly completely inwardly focused. As in, they don't give a rat's backside if North Americans like their works. That probably depends on the studio, but from what I'm told (and again, could be way off) that's how it is for the majority.


Saw a segment on NHK a while back on crunchy addressing the otaku centric modern industry.They know it isn't sustainable, but most are chasing immediate returns and are also aware of how the greater public has turned away from anime. So it is interesting to watch which companies will diversify, and which are cashing out.

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Posted 3/12/15
Wow, how do they live like this?
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