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Post Reply Why are people against piracy?
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Posted 3/18/15
Well, this is a very hard topic for me, because I mainly use Crunchyroll for my anime needs, and I live in the US, so yeah.

But if I'm not connected to the internet, I use an app on my phone called ShowBox (only for Android btw) to watch my shows. You might wanna take a look! I know this is available in the UK, as my British friend told me about it.
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Posted 3/18/15
I don't have any issues with paying for a service provided that I enjoy. Yet if you are going to license something and make it to where I can no longer pirate it you better actually sell that stuff somewhere and don't overcharge an unreasonable price or you're just contributing to piracy.

That is why I love crunchy roll. It provides a service I love and doesn't break the bank.
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Posted 3/18/15
It's because it's free or cheaper than the original. As simple as that!
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Posted 3/18/15
Also, you can't watch CR if you aren't connected to the internet
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Posted 3/18/15 , edited 3/18/15
Look! It is as simple as this. It is a philosophy of knowing right from wrong. Morality. If your an adult or at least in a mature age range of 17 year of age. You know that you have more power to watch that same anime legally or buy it.

And some countries where anime is not available either online and in-stores in understandable. Do it go ahead but if you live in a country where you have anime or manga legally available to stream or buy either online or in-store then you should be buying it if it interests you. What are you going on about the anime companies only care about money? Everyone themselves cares about money. Why do we have jobs? To obtain money.

BTW: $60.00 is not that expensive for a complete series anime set. And you don't exactly have to always make vast anime purchases frequently.

And you know streaming anime through legal streaming sites even if only as a Free user still makes sites like Crunchyroll or Hulu and such money. From where? Well, the ads. Unlike illegally downloading anime or streaming through those anime streaming sites. That is why more anime fans should stream anime through official channels.

I know I would love to watch Hyouka and Gosick but they are unavailable in my country for streaming and not here on Crunchyroll. So I refuse to watch it. Most especially on an illegal streaming site now that I know it does more harm than good.

You have to decide and the choice is yours. Do I want to show my devotion and admiration to loving anime or manga by buying (even if only when I can) or do I want to consume and consume without a care even if it means the destruction of the very thing I claim to love?
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Posted 3/18/15

rcsatcrunchyroll wrote:

I am open about my anti-piracy stance, but I am sympathetic to users living in countries where many of the shows we watch are not legally available. On the other hand, I get extremely irate when I think about the more dangerous kind of piracy, and that is the kind practiced in China, where it is essentially an industry, rather than the actions of a few desperate fans.


I don't disagree with this.

I also would say that there are legal ways to "pirate" other things, like handbags, furniture, and other things that relate to design....

I go back to what I said on Pg. 1.

The costs are often inflated. Where along the chain, I don't know.

If it weren't, then cost of creating a bootleg would be similar to the cost from legit sources.

It's like the handbag. A real one might cost $1000's of dollars just because it has a particular label or name attached. The real cost of making the bag is probably about $40 (being generous), because the grey market (bootlegs made by the same people producing the legit goods), would not, economically, be able to retail for so much less.

Now with anime, I know it's a bit tougher, but I did a quick search for some info (in graphical form)




According to these, I'm kinda guessing and translating this here*, but anime gets its revenues from advertisers and such as traditional tv shows do to cover costs. It has little to nothing to do with buying the DVD's to fund the animation companies. All the funding for anime exists prior to that stage. This may also be a very good explanation why anime still panders to what's popular by its japanese audience and not its overseas**. They really don't care that much about what people in other countries do (or at least aren't as concerned as they do not see us as their primary market), it's more or less the legit licensees in the US and other countries that are throwing shit fits. (and with region locking, high prices on physical media [CR's price for streaming is dirt cheap, and I just want to state I'm not criticizing that], and other practices, are making fans miserable)

The second infographic does point to less sales in the US, and the drop off occurring around 2009, but that's just a small part of a larger dropping trend, and accounting for the anomalous good years of 2005 and 2006, (which, even then, weren't THAT spectacular)... You may point to pirating with this, but the third graphic just goes to show that really, the DVD's VHS, etc. have never really been the moneymakers for anime. It's the products. The models, the art books, the wall scrolls, etc. It's like transformers in a way. Transformers was a show that was made based around a product in order to increase sales of the product. The shows are there, but if you're collecting licensing fees, your probably going to have more sales via the physical goods over the original media...

As such, oddly enough, maybe pirated media is still doing Anime a greater favor by creating more fans (like showtime kinda stated when they said they didn't mind people sharing their showtime passwords to watch the latest GoT, because it was, in its own way,creating more addicts and hopefully more people who would want to subscribe.), which in turn fuels a greater industry focused on selling you the crappy merch, which, if is the highly sought after "direct from japan" or "official" merch, probably means more of that cash is getting back to the creators... Maybe. After all, how can we verify that these companies aren't just paying flat rate fees for their licenses and not a percentage on their sales/views?

The language given never really clarifies this. They just say they use a portion of their profits to get the licensing.

Does Funi pay 2 cents to the animation studio that created AoT every time someone clicks on an episode? I highly doubt it. And when you consider the complex mathematics that would be required to figure out a "per play" value for when AoT plays on Hulu via Funimation's licensing, etc.... i'm more likely to believe it's a flat amount paid per license.

In short, the anime itself doesn't make any money for the companies regardless of piracy. It comes from the original airing via sponsors and advertisers and the merch that is licensed rather than the videos. The only reason anime is produced is to make you want to buy that peripheral stuff. Piracy of the videos probably does not harm the animation studios much at all.

*Disclaimer. This is, admittedly a little more on the shoddy side of not getting all my numbers super precise, doing lots of comparisons and such that I could do to make my argument more solid. it took a few minutes just to find things like this, and I'm in between things, so please forgive this.

**(additionally, there's less and less anime actually being made by the japanese. it's all being outsourced to china. Which there was another infographic thingie for that showed the rise of animators and china and korea, which coincides with other articles about this but it's kinda irrelevant to some degree)
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Posted 3/18/15 , edited 3/18/15
Above post is a really great post.


abnormalize wrote:

Look! It is as simple as this. It is a philosophy of knowing right from wrong. Morality. If your an adult or at least in a mature age range of 17 year of age. You know that you have more power to watch that same anime legally or buy it.

And some countries where anime is not available either online and in-stores in understandable. Do it go ahead but if you live in a country where you have anime or manga legally available to stream or buy either online or in-store then you should be buying it if it interests you. What are you going on about the anime companies only care about money? Everyone themselves cares about money. Why do we have jobs? To obtain money.

BTW: $60.00 is not that expensive for a complete series anime set. And you don't exactly have to always make vast anime purchases frequently.

And you know streaming anime through legal streaming sites even if only as a Free user still makes sites like Crunchyroll or Hulu and such money. From where? Well, the ads. Unlike illegally downloading anime or streaming through those anime streaming sites. That is why more anime fans should stream anime through official channels.

I know I would love to watch Hyouka and Gosick but they are unavailable in my country for streaming and not here on Crunchyroll. So I refuse to watch it. Most especially on an illegal streaming site now that I know it does more harm than good.

You have to decide and the choice is yours. Do I want to show my devotion and admiration to loving anime or manga by buying (even if only when I can) or do I want to consume and consume without a care even if it means the destruction of the very thing I claim to love?


Have to retype this because I lost connection to the internet while submitting response

1 thing about ad revenue.

Adblock.

Also, here's another view on fansubs. There are many series that will never see the light of day in the English speaking community had there not been a generous fansub group to devote all their free time to deliver you fabulous subs, the show that was destined for the bin now gains popularity that it would never have had if fansubbers never picked it up, and as a result LN/manga sales of that series go straight up.

See what thinking in different ways leads to?

Fansubs are also a great way to get people exposed to anime. They are more easily distributed and have more sparkle in them. Many anime fans got into anime via fansubs, and these people do spend quite a bit of money in the industry as well.

In the end, people have their own ways to support the industry, be it from buying shows or buying books and music. Or if
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Posted 3/18/15

BlueOni wrote:

It warrants mention that anime has traditionally been a club good, one which may be enjoyed by any number of people without taking away from any individual's enjoyment thereof while simultaneously being something to which access may be restricted. As reproduction and distribution of anime have become progressively less burdensome processes, however, that excludability has been waning and anime has been taking on more character as a public good like rain, national security, or fireworks displays. As a consequence this brings up something called the "free rider dilemma", which essentially boils down to this: people aren't inclined to pay for something they can get for free, and failing to take this into account when constructing the model for funding a public good will likely result in its diminished or discontinued provision. That is why people are down on piracy: pirates are the free-riders.

Now, it's all well and good to say that pirates are free-riders, rabble rabble, rabble. But what is to be done about them, how can we solve the free-rider dilemma? Well, there are many options available, but they all essentially come together as either carrot or stick approaches. Crunchyroll, FUNimation, Viz Media, Hulu, and so on have opted to provide freely accessible, ad-supported streaming services for content. That's a carrot approach intended to lure back those who are still inclined to be free-riders, but which also wouldn't begrudge watching (or ignoring, the money is made either way) a few ads for the sake of getting what they want. Considering how widespread this practice has become, and further how long it has endured, I would imagine that the idea has experienced some measure of success. Another carrot approach is to expand international access to content, and while I'm certain this is a very difficult process and that distributors would generally love to go wherever they believe a market exists the cold reality that illegal distributors are not so burdened cannot be ignored. You'll have to either accept the loss of some markets to pirates, or you'll have to take bigger risks.

Meanwhile, a stick approach would be prosecuting those who illegally obtain/produce/distribute copies. This has been the standard practice for as long as copyright law has existed, though I question its relative efficacy in the face of technologies which have made reproduction/distribution so easy and inexpensive. Another interesting point concerning stick approaches is that they are not always themselves legal. In order to combat piracy firms have as much as included malware in their products which either installs itself secretly or disregards refusal to consent to its installation. This should not be tolerated. Yet a third stick method is to force internet customers into arbitration agreements which are intrinsically stacked against them in order to obtain service at all. This too should not be tolerated. I'm certainly not saying that stick approaches are intrinsically useless, illegal, or unethical, but rather that I question the usefulness of past approaches and consider that emphasis should probably be on carrot-style approaches.


Even still, there's people out there like myself that want to OWN their media, rather than just have it streamed.. But the price per disc is ridiculously high so I simply don't buy.

Plus, as my argument I just posted was about, the money doesn't come from anime anyhow... It comes from the merch.

Plus, to be honest, over here it may have been a club good and not a public good, but for the most part, this is stuff that appears on TV natively. It is a public good, that was turned into a club good due to what amounts to "region locking" but now due to the internet, is becoming more of a public good again, which just further complicates the whole mess.

My theory is that the streams should be free. Focus on merch, like you did before it was a club good. (and lower the price on the damned disks!!! we all know a DVD doesn't cost $10 to make!!! [and the black market proves that])
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Posted 3/18/15
I will say I dislike piracy very much , but here in the UK I often find my self very limited as to what I can watch, i will always try to access a series legally but sometimes that just isn't possible.
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Posted 3/18/15 , edited 3/18/15

bobland wrote:

Above post is a really great post.


abnormalize wrote:

Look! It is as simple as this. It is a philosophy of knowing right from wrong. Morality. If your an adult or at least in a mature age range of 17 year of age. You know that you have more power to watch that same anime legally or buy it.

And some countries where anime is not available either online and in-stores in understandable. Do it go ahead but if you live in a country where you have anime or manga legally available to stream or buy either online or in-store then you should be buying it if it interests you. What are you going on about the anime companies only care about money? Everyone themselves cares about money. Why do we have jobs? To obtain money.

BTW: $60.00 is not that expensive for a complete series anime set. And you don't exactly have to always make vast anime purchases frequently.

And you know streaming anime through legal streaming sites even if only as a Free user still makes sites like Crunchyroll or Hulu and such money. From where? Well, the ads. Unlike illegally downloading anime or streaming through those anime streaming sites. That is why more anime fans should stream anime through official channels.

I know I would love to watch Hyouka and Gosick but they are unavailable in my country for streaming and not here on Crunchyroll. So I refuse to watch it. Most especially on an illegal streaming site now that I know it does more harm than good.

You have to decide and the choice is yours. Do I want to show my devotion and admiration to loving anime or manga by buying (even if only when I can) or do I want to consume and consume without a care even if it means the destruction of the very thing I claim to love?


Have to retype this because I lost connection to the internet while submitting response

1 thing about ad revenue.

Adblock.

Also, here's another view on fansubs. There are many series that will never see the light of day in the English speaking community had there not been a generous fansub group to devote all their free time to deliver you fabulous subs, the show that was destined for the bin now gains popularity that it would never have had if fansubbers never picked it up, and as a result LN/manga sales of that series go straight up.

See what thinking in different ways leads to?

Fansubs are also a great way to get people exposed to anime. They are more easily distributed and have more sparkle in them. Many anime fans got into anime via fansubs, and these people do spend quite a bit of money in the industry as well.

In the end, people have their own ways to support the industry, be it from buying shows or buying books and music. Or if



Yeah. Though ads are there for a reason your not supposed to turn them off. People don't turn on ADBlock! LoL. Kind of like watching TV. I myself sit through the ads since they have their purpose.

I agree that fansubs did make anime fans get into more anime but after a while especially with 2012-now they have more than overstayed their welcome. Particularly with more anime streaming sites popping up in various countries.

I think it is time they left for good. As I recall some of the subtitling. I do not want to be harsh but it wasn't always the neatest. So I wonder where talk that fansubs are much cleaner and fabulous than legit subtitled anime is coming out from. So untrue. Most fansubs for the anime tended to look messy.
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Posted 3/18/15 , edited 3/18/15
To be fair, the fansub business is dying. The biggest group of all is notorious for using Funi/CR rips.


Now if CR had offline viewing.....
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Posted 3/18/15

bobland wrote:

To be fair, the fansub business is dying. The biggest group of all is notorious for using Funi/CR rips.


Now if CR had offline viewing.....


Which is probably more of a result of free and nearly free legal streams than people suddenly getting a conscience.

Which fits back into the idea that the only reason the black market exists is to correct a situation where something isn't legally available that is desired, or, the legal methods are grossly overpriced or restrictive compared to the illegal methods.
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Posted 3/18/15 , edited 3/18/15

jordancharacter wrote:

I'm against instances of piracy where a product that is readily avaliable legally is being obtained illegally. Now, I live in America, where most of the anime on Crunchyroll is available, and people here still pirate, which is the equivalent of stealing. It is really that simple. Now, if you live in an area where a product is not available, then pirating is the only option, then it becomes the fault of the supply not meeting the demand.

And also, as GayAsianBoy said, it is extremely disrespectful who put their hard work into these anime and manga (and it is very hard work, if the recent news showing their wages was any indication).


This is more or less how I feel as well. I think of it from the perspective of someone who has written a book before: I wrote it because I want people to read it. Of course, I want them to pay me for it. But mostly, I want people to read it. So if someone illegally translated my book into a foreign language so that they could read it, I have no problem with it. Hell, I'd probably help the with the translation, if they asked.

The one thing I will note, however, is that "piracy" is actually a pretty ill-defined term, and both sides of the debate tend to misrepresent what is actually going on. For instance:

- Back when I was a kid, back in the late 80s and early 90s, it was common for kids to make cassette tape copies of favorite songs--or even *gasp* a mix tape!--to give to their friends or significant others. This was technically piracy. And you know what? It drastically increased music sales. Why? People listened to the song, and if they liked it, they'd often go out and buy the CD. It never occurred to any of us that we were breaking the law... but we were.

- In the same vein, I often use scantalators or free-streaming services to tell me what I should buy. Even with legally available manga or anime, I'll often check it out for free (assuming that it's not part of a service I subscribe to already), and then go and buy it later. For instance, I wouldn't own the first two Sword Art Online novels now, if I hadn't read them online first (and until then it never even crossed my mind to read, much less buy, a Japanese Light Novel). I was pretty skeptical of Kimi ni Todoke before checking out the scantalated manga--and now it's at the top of my Amazon Wish List. I've read the Toradora novels online--and the instant they become available in North America, I'm buying them. I played a fan-subbed version of Clannad I downloaded, and have since purchased half a dozen visual novels... and Kickstarted the official Clannad translation, which I absolutely wouldn't have done before I played the game.

- The flip side of that is money. I have a limited budget to spend on leisure time, and I'd rather that go to authors and publishers who are providing a good product. If I had unlimited money, I'd buy everything. But I don't, and so I'd rather that the money I do have go to people selling a good product, and not to people selling things that I consider offensive or just plain bad.

- All of that being said, piracy is not an unequivocal good as some on the internet try to make it out to be. There are plenty of examples of films, songs, and games that have lost substantial amounts of revenue and publicity on opening day because of pirated copies leaking out--and often times, that opening day revenue is used to generate the publicity necessary to survive past opening day. It's also, as many have pointed out here, illegal--and one should think carefully before breaking any law.
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Posted 3/18/15
Well it's essentially stealing and stealing is bad.
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Posted 3/18/15

serifsansserif wrote:
Even still, there's people out there like myself that want to OWN their media, rather than just have it streamed.. But the price per disc is ridiculously high so I simply don't buy.


Are you talking about Japanese discs or North American? NA ones are only a fraction of the cost of those in Japan for the most part, and usually contain the complete series instead of just a couple episodes to boot.
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