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Post Reply How long will we have the first ammendment?
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Posted 3/19/15

silversongwriter wrote:

Most of the time it's not that they deny service to gays completely.
As that's not possible. Because you can't read minds. If you get kicked out, it's due to either behavior (public displays of affection), or if you're doing something marriage related.

Which... when you think about it. You're discriminating against a lifestyle, not a sexual orientation. As nobody has a signal flashing above their heads telling their sexual orientation. That means you're not being discriminated for who you are, but what you do.

I love to drink. However, if a person has strong beliefs against alcohol and discriminates against people who drink, even outside the job. It's still his right to do that. (you can't do that in NC, based on current discirmination laws)

If we legalize weed, should it become illegal to drug test employee's? I don't think so, because even though I approve of weed. I'm not in favor of dictating how someone does business. Because I know plenty of business's will simply stop drug testing as it'll no longer be a big deal.




I agree with those that think that gays shouldn't be discriminated for choosing to be in relationships, get married, etc. You put it as "choosing a lifestyle", but I feel that this movement towards more acceptance and tolerance for gay people is a good thing. What I've come to find is that gay people just simply are attracted to the same sex while not being attracted to the opposite sex. I've heard and read of many gay people saying they are just like this, and science is finding more and more that gay people have biological factors that make them how they are. I'm very convinced that being gay isn't a choice and I think that, in this modern day world, they should be able to seek out and have romantic relationships with the kinds of people they are attracted to and not face so much hate, discrimination, and violence.

That is my stance on things, pretty much in a nutshell.
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Posted 3/19/15

BlueOni wrote:

...not going to lie, it's pretty difficult to confuse a request for a wedding cake reading something like "Congratulations, Jim and Edward" for anything other than a cake for a same-sex ceremony. Even if there's no message to be applied, the request for a pair of bridal figurines would kind of ring some bells that a pair of lesbians was to be wed.


And why is it a big deal that they may have to go somewhere else?

After all... Religion is a protected class...

Therefore, if I want a bible verse printed on a cake. Since it's from the bible, it makes it releveant to religion, and isn't just something "made up" or "cherry picked"

Therefore, if I want a bible verse printed on a cake, it should be any one I want right? Cause there's plenty of ones that people wouldn't want to write. Same with the Qu'ran. There's some pretty unpleasant stuff in both

However, the bible is a religious text. If you refuse to make one with a bible verse on it, then you're discriminating against a religion.

If you call the bible verse offensive, then you're saying the religion is offensive.
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Posted 3/19/15
Its up to Beijing, America is so screwed its not even funny.
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Posted 3/19/15 , edited 3/20/15

BlueOni wrote:

Screw the wedding cake or coffee cake industries, the market didn't even resolve housing discrimination against homosexuals.




Good point. They also face that form of discrimination. Or also, the fact that if one member of a gay couple is hurt or sick in the hospital, their significant other can't visit them in the hospital and be there for them in such a hard time.

It isn't just about "not being able to get the cakes from some bakers". They fight for that because they want to rally against all the discrimination they face, and I agree with them and many others, they shouldn't face so much discrimination. We can't effectively eliminate all discrimination, but we should do things to reduce it. Religious people shouldn't have a "right to discriminate".
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Posted 3/19/15 , edited 3/20/15
What most people don't seem to realize is that the VAST MAJORITY of people interpret the first amendment improperly.

Modernly, the first amendment's purpose is to allow people to have their freedom of speech against the government and to protect religion. The first amendment does not give you a right to say whatever you want to your boss or your neighbor or your family or to strangers. It may not seem like that big of a deal since people rarely get dinged for that, but people should know what the first amendment means before they cite it in their everyday lives and use it as an excuse to be an a**hole. Being an a**hole is not a constitutional right. It is merely tolerated because it's too much of a hassle to punish.

I guess it might only be a matter of time before the religion part comes under too much fire to stand, but we will have to see as society changes in the future.

When we lose the first amendment, we lose the right to speak against the government. Sounds bad, man.
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Posted 3/19/15

silversongwriter wrote:

And why is it a big deal that they may have to go somewhere else?


Didn't I just bring up housing discrimination? This is bigger than cakes. You're impacting more than bakeries by opposing establishing sexual orientation as a protected class. In fact, if you were to get your way and remove religion as a protected class you could be refused a job/promotion or fired, denied a rental contract, and refused service at any public establishment, and all on the basis of your religious beliefs. That is why this is a big deal: it impacts real things that impact peoples' lives in very real ways. This isn't a game.


After all... Religion is a protected class...

Therefore, if I want a bible verse printed on a cake. Since it's from the bible, it makes it releveant to religion, and isn't just something "made up" or "cherry picked"

Therefore, if I want a bible verse printed on a cake, it should be any one I want right? Cause there's plenty of ones that people wouldn't want to write. Same with the Qu'ran. There's some pretty unpleasant stuff in both

However, the bible is a religious text. If you refuse to make one with a bible verse on it, then you're discriminating against a religion.

If you call the bible verse offensive, then you're saying the religion is offensive.


No. If my hypothetical bakery were a public establishment and you wanted a cake I couldn't deny you one on the basis of your religious beliefs or intention to use said cake at a religious function (which would pretty much be the same thing). I couldn't even offer you non-equivalent service, like not giving you all the decoration options I give everyone else. I think that's exactly how it ought to be, too.
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Posted 3/19/15

Alienshroom wrote:

Its up to Beijing, America is so screwed its not even funny.


Eh...no. The US owes more money to itself than it does to every single foreign holder of public debt combined. Also, you can't just collect on a public debt out of nowhere and in its entirety. There's a scheduled payout and a set rate of interest. This is all an aside, but I figured I'd go ahead and swat that one.
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Posted 3/19/15 , edited 3/19/15


Seriously 5 pages on an incredibly obvious troll.
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Posted 3/19/15 , edited 3/19/15

BlueOni wrote:

And why is it a big deal that they may have to go somewhere else?


Didn't I just bring up housing discrimination? This is bigger than cakes. You're impacting more than bakeries by opposing establishing sexual orientation as a protected class. In fact, if you were to get your way and remove religion as a protected class you could be refused a job/promotion or fired, denied a rental contract, and refused service at any public establishment, and all on the basis of your religious beliefs. That is why this is a big deal: it impacts real things that impact peoples' lives in very real ways. This isn't a game.

If housing discrimination is the problem, why not leave the small business's alone. Not all types of business's follow the exact same laws. Ex. Stores that sell alcohol have different laws regarding employment than stores that don't.
Same with business's that require employee's to use heavy machinery.
In private schools, whether or not they can get federal aid varies based on the curriculum.

Not every kind of establishment opperates the same. And there's different state regulations for different business's.
Something as serious as housing is a lot different than somebodies store.



BlueOni wrote:No. If my hypothetical bakery were a public establishment and you wanted a cake I couldn't deny you one on the basis of your religious beliefs or intention to use said cake at a religious function (which would pretty much be the same thing). I couldn't even offer you non-equivalent service, like not giving you all the decoration options I give everyone else. I think that's exactly how it ought to be, too.


Therefore, if I wanted anti-gay hate verses and other morbid things that are in the bible written on it... it's okay then?
Since it's not like writing "god hates fags". It would be a literal verse from the bible, and therefore, a religious expression.

I'm sorry... but I just don't see it that way. I mean... I can't imagine a satanist being able to tell a christian, "make a 666 cake", you have no choice or your discriminating against satanism... That's just ridiculous.

I think it's possible to protect fair housing, without having such ridiculous standards for small business's
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Posted 3/19/15

Morbidhanson wrote:

What most people don't seem to realize is that the VAST MAJORITY of people interpret the first amendment improperly.

Modernly, the first amendment's purpose is to allow people to have their freedom of speech against the government and to protect religion. The first amendment does not give you a right to say whatever you want to your boss or your neighbor or your family or to strangers. It may not seem like that big of a deal since people rarely get dinged for that, but people should know what the first amendment means before they cite it in their everyday lives and use it as an excuse to be an a**hole. Being an a**hole is not a constitutional right. It is merely tolerated because it's too much of a hassle to punish.

I guess it might only be a matter of time before the religion part comes under too much fire to stand, but we will have to see as society changes in the future.

When we lose the first amendment, we lose the right to speak against the government. Sounds bad, man.


You do know that is already starting to happen, So I am thinking in a few years the ideals passed down from are forefathers will be nothing more than paper used to wipe your arss after you finish shiitting! Because even friendly protest can not be in front or 500 feet from a pubic official or you be arrested and thrown in jail.
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Posted 3/19/15 , edited 3/19/15

silversongwriter wrote:

If housing discrimination is the problem, why not leave the small business's alone. Not all types of business's follow the exact same laws. Ex. Stores that sell alcohol have different laws regarding employment than stores that don't.
Same with business's that require employee's to use heavy machinery.
In private schools, whether or not they can get federal aid varies based on the curriculum.

Not every kind of establishment opperates the same. And there's different state regulations for different business's.
Something as serious as housing is a lot different than somebodies store.


There is no reason to separate these public establishments into separate categories for the sake of allowing them to evade civil rights regulation.


Therefore, if I wanted anti-gay hate verses and other morbid things that are in the bible written on it... it's okay then?
Since it's not like writing "god hates fags". It would be a literal verse from the bible, and therefore, a religious expression.

I'm sorry... but I just don't see it that way. I mean... I can't imagine a satanist being able to tell a christian, "make a 666 cake", you have no choice or your discriminating against satanism... That's just ridiculous.

I think it's possible to protect fair housing, without having such ridiculous standards for small business's


Provision of the option to be a private club resolves the dilemma of business owners who want to be more selective in their clientele. There's no problem to be solved here.
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Posted 3/19/15 , edited 3/19/15


silversongwriter wrote:


BlueOni wrote:

And why is it a big deal that they may have to go somewhere else?


Didn't I just bring up housing discrimination? This is bigger than cakes. You're impacting more than bakeries by opposing establishing sexual orientation as a protected class. In fact, if you were to get your way and remove religion as a protected class you could be refused a job/promotion or fired, denied a rental contract, and refused service at any public establishment, and all on the basis of your religious beliefs. That is why this is a big deal: it impacts real things that impact peoples' lives in very real ways. This isn't a game.


If housing discrimination is the problem, why not leave the small business's alone. Not all types of business's follow the exact same laws. Ex. Stores that sell alcohol have different laws regarding employment than stores that don't.
Same with business's that require employee's to use heavy machinery.
In private schools, whether or not they can get federal aid varies based on the curriculum.

Not every kind of establishment opperates the same. And there's different state regulations for different business's.
Something as serious as housing is a lot different than somebodies store.



BlueOni wrote:No. If my hypothetical bakery were a public establishment and you wanted a cake I couldn't deny you one on the basis of your religious beliefs or intention to use said cake at a religious function (which would pretty much be the same thing). I couldn't even offer you non-equivalent service, like not giving you all the decoration options I give everyone else. I think that's exactly how it ought to be, too.


Therefore, if I wanted anti-gay hate verses and other morbid things that are in the bible written on it... it's okay then?
Since it's not like writing "god hates fags". It would be a literal verse from the bible, and therefore, a religious expression.

I'm sorry... but I just don't see it that way. I mean... I can't imagine a satanist being able to tell a christian, "make a 666 cake", you have no choice or your discriminating against satanism... That's just ridiculous.

I think it's possible to protect fair housing, without having such ridiculous standards for small business's


Businesses have a right to refuse service.

Harassment is also not protected. So, no, a Satanist cannot tell a Christian to do that and expect him to follow through if each person knows of the strength of one another's beliefs. There are probably more facts than are provided, since articles like to paint a picture to have you see certain things and they will omit other stuff.

But a customer can tell a baker what to put on the cake he is going to pay for. If you take the money and refuse to produce the cake, that is a breach of contract.

These cases shown by OP are, by and large, probably due to an unintentional effect of a new regulation. The court probably enforces such a regulation in order to help commerce and to prevent people from breaching commercial contracts based on religious beliefs. You are free to have your beliefs, but you cannot materialize your beliefs into something real that is detrimental to the society. I think with the crazy attention it is getting, something will change soon.
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Posted 3/19/15
Dang, BlueOni is on a roll. I think I will just let her do the talking for me.
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Posted 3/19/15 , edited 3/19/15

BlueOni wrote:
If housing discrimination is the problem, why not leave the small business's alone. Not all types of business's follow the exact same laws. Ex. Stores that sell alcohol have different laws regarding employment than stores that don't.
Same with business's that require employee's to use heavy machinery.
In private schools, whether or not they can get federal aid varies based on the curriculum.

Not every kind of establishment opperates the same. And there's different state regulations for different business's.
Something as serious as housing is a lot different than somebodies store.


There is no reason to separate these public establishments into separate categories for the sake of allowing them to evade civil rights regulation.

There should be if they're not harming anyone. Or incapable of causing any harm. And establishments that are privately owned, yet open to the public already have seperate categories of regulation. Why would this be any different?

There would be no harm caused?


BlueOni wrote
Provision of the option to be a private club resolves the dilemma of business owners who want to be more selective in their clientele. There's no problem to be solved here.


How are you supposed to make money with such a business? A private bakery with a membership list? The only way to do make any money off of that is to open your doors to the public. Then the whole club aspect would be kind of pointless.

And why should someone have to start a private club just cause they don't wanna accept anything. I mean... 666 is just as obcene as a dick to a lot of people.

THerefore, you should be able to make them do a cake shaped like a dick... Or have one that says "fuck" on it
Those are no less offensive than "666"

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Posted 3/19/15


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Morbidhanson wrote:

What most people don't seem to realize is that the VAST MAJORITY of people interpret the first amendment improperly.

Modernly, the first amendment's purpose is to allow people to have their freedom of speech against the government and to protect religion. The first amendment does not give you a right to say whatever you want to your boss or your neighbor or your family or to strangers. It may not seem like that big of a deal since people rarely get dinged for that, but people should know what the first amendment means before they cite it in their everyday lives and use it as an excuse to be an a**hole. Being an a**hole is not a constitutional right. It is merely tolerated because it's too much of a hassle to punish.

I guess it might only be a matter of time before the religion part comes under too much fire to stand, but we will have to see as society changes in the future.

When we lose the first amendment, we lose the right to speak against the government. Sounds bad, man.


You do know that is already starting to happen, So I am thinking in a few years the ideals passed down from are forefathers will be nothing more than paper used to wipe your arss after you finish shiitting! Because even friendly protest can not be in front or 500 feet from a pubic official or you be arrested and thrown in jail.


Speaking against the government and speaking against a specific official with a mob in a fervent, outraged manner while being close to the official are two different things. I'm fairly certain the first amendment will stand for at least most of our remaining lifespan.
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